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	<title>Comments on: The Moral Sense Test</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-256069</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-256069</guid>
		<description>MPA, that&#039;s interesting.


&quot;Security.&quot;
&quot;Listen hard. You are the President&#039;s bodyguards, the T-men. I am with the Palestinian Suicide League. We have five volunteers who will all kill themselves unless you kill the President within the next hour. And we have five more volunteers who will kill themselves the next hour. Kill the President or we will carry out our threat.&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">MPA</span>, that&#8217;s interesting.</p>


	<p>&#8220;Security.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Listen hard. You are the President&#8217;s bodyguards, the T-men. I am with the Palestinian Suicide League. We have five volunteers who will all kill themselves unless you kill the President within the next hour. And we have five more volunteers who will kill themselves the next hour. Kill the President or we will carry out our threat.&#8221; </p>

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		<title>By: MPA</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-256042</link>
		<dc:creator>MPA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-256042</guid>
		<description>&quot;novakant 10.16.08 at 1:34 pm
I completed the test, but have to say it’s extremely lame:
– if I could be 100% sure of the outcome, of course I would choose 5 lives over one life&quot; 

Hmmm. I found myself wondering if the 5 people who were on the track had deliberately placed themselves in a dangerous/risky position (for a thrill?). This affected my thinking about whether I could justify killing the one person on the side track whom I imagined to be an innocent bystander.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;novakant 10.16.08 at 1:34 pm<br />
I completed the test, but have to say it&#8217;s extremely lame:<br />
&#8211; if I could be 100% sure of the outcome, of course I would choose 5 lives over one life&#8221;</p>

	<p>Hmmm. I found myself wondering if the 5 people who were on the track had deliberately placed themselves in a dangerous/risky position (for a thrill?). This affected my thinking about whether I could justify killing the one person on the side track whom I imagined to be an innocent bystander.</p>
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		<title>By: not that kind of ethicist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-256022</link>
		<dc:creator>not that kind of ethicist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-256022</guid>
		<description>132 wins. I literally fell off my couch laughing. 
we can all go home now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>132 wins. I literally fell off my couch laughing.<br />
we can all go home now.</p>
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		<title>By: idlemind</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-256015</link>
		<dc:creator>idlemind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-256015</guid>
		<description>I wonder if John Woo spent any time studying moral philosophy. Would it have made him more or less prone to the sort of reasoning reflected in the &quot;torture memo?&quot; He seems to have wrestled with some of the same questions (even if he did wind up entirely off the mat).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wonder if John Woo spent any time studying moral philosophy. Would it have made him more or less prone to the sort of reasoning reflected in the &#8220;torture memo?&#8221; He seems to have wrestled with some of the same questions (even if he did wind up entirely off the mat).</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255993</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255993</guid>
		<description>Shorter This Thread:

Son, we live in a world that has trolleys. And those trolleys have to be directed by men with switches. Who&#039;s gonna do it? You? You, Prof. Holbo? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for your dead violinist and you curse Judith Jarvis Thompson. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That a brain in a vat&#039;s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don&#039;t want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don&#039;t talk about at parties, you want me on that trolley. You need me on that trolley. We use words like radical uncertainty, competing moral demands, the complexity of lived experience ...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I&#039;d prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up some pre-phylloxera claret and go live on a desert island. Either way, I don&#039;t give a damn what you think you&#039;re entitled to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shorter This Thread:</p>

	<p>Son, we live in a world that has trolleys. And those trolleys have to be directed by men with switches. Who&#8217;s gonna do it? You? You, Prof. Holbo? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for your dead violinist and you curse Judith Jarvis Thompson. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That a brain in a vat&#8217;s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don&#8217;t want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don&#8217;t talk about at parties, you want me on that trolley. You need me on that trolley. We use words like radical uncertainty, competing moral demands, the complexity of lived experience &#8230;we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I&#8217;d prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up some pre-phylloxera claret and go live on a desert island. Either way, I don&#8217;t give a damn what you think you&#8217;re entitled to.</p>
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		<title>By: not that kind of ethicist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255975</link>
		<dc:creator>not that kind of ethicist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255975</guid>
		<description>Cala-- true, he&#039;s not a moral philosopher. That, however, will not be likely to stop him from claiming otherwise (hasn&#039;t stopped any of the other professional surveyers)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cala&#8212;true, he&#8217;s not a moral philosopher. That, however, will not be likely to stop him from claiming otherwise (hasn&#8217;t stopped any of the other professional surveyers)</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor Science</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255971</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 03:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255971</guid>
		<description>I had to come back and find out if anyone had linked to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/Tissues.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a brain in a vat is at the wheel of a runaway trolley&lt;/a&gt;. I think by this point we&#039;re all qualified to get the joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I had to come back and find out if anyone had linked to <a href="http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/Tissues.htm" rel="nofollow">a brain in a vat is at the wheel of a runaway trolley</a>. I think by this point we&#8217;re all qualified to get the joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Cala</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255964</link>
		<dc:creator>Cala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 01:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255964</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But that did mean I learned that Schwitzgebel thinks people might be basing their judgements on whether the hypothetical involved you physically touching the person you harmed. Is there any group of people with less grasp on how people assess moral decisions, than moral philosophers?&lt;/i&gt;

He&#039;s not a moral philosopher; to the extent I understand his research into this question, his work can be described as a criticism of many of these types of introductory ethics examples.  I think the hypothesis here is that rather than any dominant theory of ethics or morality, some more primitive reaction like proximity to suffering (homeless guy here vs. starving person 5000 miles away) or physical repulsion (physically killing vs. letting someone die without touching them) is what underlies people&#039;s intuitions.

I doubt the guy&#039;s conclusions are going to be &#039;this proves that morality is about physically touching&#039;; I suspect it probably underwrites a criticism of the limits of these kinds of introductory toy examples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But that did mean I learned that Schwitzgebel thinks people might be basing their judgements on whether the hypothetical involved you physically touching the person you harmed. Is there any group of people with less grasp on how people assess moral decisions, than moral philosophers?</i></p>

	<p>He&#8217;s not a moral philosopher; to the extent I understand his research into this question, his work can be described as a criticism of many of these types of introductory ethics examples.  I think the hypothesis here is that rather than any dominant theory of ethics or morality, some more primitive reaction like proximity to suffering (homeless guy here vs. starving person 5000 miles away) or physical repulsion (physically killing vs. letting someone die without touching them) is what underlies people&#8217;s intuitions.</p>

	<p>I doubt the guy&#8217;s conclusions are going to be &#8216;this proves that morality is about physically touching&#8217;; I suspect it probably underwrites a criticism of the limits of these kinds of introductory toy examples.</p>
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		<title>By: qb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255928</link>
		<dc:creator>qb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255928</guid>
		<description>Richard @ 124,
&quot;No.&quot; That&#039;s not the joke I heard, but you&#039;d have no reason to know that.  Also, thanks for dodging my point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard @ 124,<br />
&#8220;No.&#8221; That&#8217;s not the joke I heard, but you&#8217;d have no reason to know that.  Also, thanks for dodging my point.</p>
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		<title>By: Witt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255870</link>
		<dc:creator>Witt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255870</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;To do well in philosophy courses requires that one be able to do this sort of decontexted analysis without collapsing in rage or frustration, and then those selected people have their tendencies amplified by working with this kind of philosophy.&lt;/i&gt;

This is certainly an emotionally appealing explanation for my short-lived experience of said courses.

Pitkin has it right:
&lt;i&gt; If you want to study people’s moral intuitions, you have to explore what practical heuristics people use for making decisions and what aspects of a situation are judged relevant. Not pick out a tiny subset of factors and conclude that if people don’t respond deterministically to those, they’re inconsistent or confused.&lt;/i&gt;

and this is a good point too: &lt;i&gt;That’s IMHO what various commenters mean by saying the scenarios lack “context”—they lack social context, and social context is where our moral judgments come from.&lt;/i&gt;

Right. As several people said above, I based my calculation of the fine not on what the person&#039;s life was &quot;worth,&quot; but what I thought would be an amount significant enough to hurt the wrongdoer, yet not so significant that they would go to great lengths to avoid paying it (bankruptcy, fake death and move to a new city, move abroad, etc.). The amount I put in that answer isn&#039;t anything at all to do with whether I think it&#039;s worse that a &quot;little girl&quot; got killed by a drunk driver or a &quot;person&quot; got killed by a bag of concrete. It has to do with &quot;What amount will best accomplish the goal of punishing the wrongdoer, dissuading him/her and others from similar carelessness in the future, and actually having a realistic chance of getting paid?&quot; 

Other than that, my major objections to this quiz are a) forced, ludicrously unrealistic choices, b) no opportunity to discuss things with other people in the scenario (like the chemist-testing-her-poison/vaccine), and c) no acknowledgment that the ability to buy time is valuable, especially in high-pressure situations where another solution may emerge.

B) is particularly egregious, because the best real-life example I&#039;ve seen in recent years were the doctors during Hurricane Katrina that were trying to make decisions about oxygen, medication, etc. for terminally ill patients. In many cases there &lt;i&gt; one could ask the patient&lt;/i&gt; what they wanted to do. 

This artificial world of individual moral actors who don&#039;t have any social ties or context is just beyond stupid to me. I really don&#039;t understand how abstracting problems out to this level tells us anything useful, or valuable, about what it means to be human and how to be a better one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>To do well in philosophy courses requires that one be able to do this sort of decontexted analysis without collapsing in rage or frustration, and then those selected people have their tendencies amplified by working with this kind of philosophy.</i></p>

	<p>This is certainly an emotionally appealing explanation for my short-lived experience of said courses.</p>

	<p>Pitkin has it right:<br />
<i> If you want to study people&#8217;s moral intuitions, you have to explore what practical heuristics people use for making decisions and what aspects of a situation are judged relevant. Not pick out a tiny subset of factors and conclude that if people don&#8217;t respond deterministically to those, they&#8217;re inconsistent or confused.</i></p>

	<p>and this is a good point too: <i>That&#8217;s <span class="caps">IMHO</span> what various commenters mean by saying the scenarios lack &#8220;context&#8221;&#8212;they lack social context, and social context is where our moral judgments come from.</i></p>

	<p>Right. As several people said above, I based my calculation of the fine not on what the person&#8217;s life was &#8220;worth,&#8221; but what I thought would be an amount significant enough to hurt the wrongdoer, yet not so significant that they would go to great lengths to avoid paying it (bankruptcy, fake death and move to a new city, move abroad, etc.). The amount I put in that answer isn&#8217;t anything at all to do with whether I think it&#8217;s worse that a &#8220;little girl&#8221; got killed by a drunk driver or a &#8220;person&#8221; got killed by a bag of concrete. It has to do with &#8220;What amount will best accomplish the goal of punishing the wrongdoer, dissuading him/her and others from similar carelessness in the future, and actually having a realistic chance of getting paid?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Other than that, my major objections to this quiz are a) forced, ludicrously unrealistic choices, b) no opportunity to discuss things with other people in the scenario (like the chemist-testing-her-poison/vaccine), and c) no acknowledgment that the ability to buy time is valuable, especially in high-pressure situations where another solution may emerge.</p>

	<p>B) is particularly egregious, because the best real-life example I&#8217;ve seen in recent years were the doctors during Hurricane Katrina that were trying to make decisions about oxygen, medication, etc. for terminally ill patients. In many cases there <i> one could ask the patient</i> what they wanted to do.</p>

	<p>This artificial world of individual moral actors who don&#8217;t have any social ties or context is just beyond stupid to me. I really don&#8217;t understand how abstracting problems out to this level tells us anything useful, or valuable, about what it means to be human and how to be a better one.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255859</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255859</guid>
		<description>124: The &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazlo_Toth&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;László Tóth&lt;/a&gt; who solved the orange-packing problem was not the same László Tóth who smashed Michelangelo&#039;s Pietà with a hammer. 

Damn damn damn damn damn. It would have been so beautiful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>124: The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazlo_Toth" rel="nofollow">L&#225;szl&#243; T&#243;th</a> who solved the orange-packing problem was not the same L&#225;szl&#243; T&#243;th who smashed Michelangelo&#8217;s Piet&#224; with a hammer.</p>

	<p>Damn damn damn damn damn. It would have been so beautiful.</p>
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		<title>By: MQ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255836</link>
		<dc:creator>MQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255836</guid>
		<description>Actually, the &quot;how much would you fine for X&quot; questions struck me as the only good ones in the entire test. A big issue with most questions was the attempt to artificially jam a highly legalistic, top-down &quot;legislators&quot; framework onto moral questions that don&#039;t fit that frame at all. But the question of how much you should penalize people based on the unintentional results of careless negligence is a very relevant question that  societies actually do have to hash out through an impersonal legal system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, the &#8220;how much would you fine for X&#8221; questions struck me as the only good ones in the entire test. A big issue with most questions was the attempt to artificially jam a highly legalistic, top-down &#8220;legislators&#8221; framework onto moral questions that don&#8217;t fit that frame at all. But the question of how much you should penalize people based on the unintentional results of careless negligence is a very relevant question that  societies actually do have to hash out through an impersonal legal system.</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255826</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255826</guid>
		<description>I know we&#039;re past the point of cause loss on this comments thread, but I feel I have to defend a quite brilliant joke:
&lt;i&gt;There’s an old joke about a physicist who, for some reason relevant to the punch line, goes up to a blackboard, draws a circle, and then says, “Imagine that’s a cow.”&lt;/i&gt;

No. A farmer asks a physicist to help him get his chickens to market - &quot;what&#039;s the most efficient way,&quot; he asks, &quot;to stack them in my cart?&quot;
The physicist, with a gleam in his eye, replies, &quot;first, imagine the chickens are spherical...&quot;

After &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_9_98.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1998&lt;/a&gt;, the joke lost some of its power. Back when it referred to one of the great unsolved mathematical mysteries, it was funnier that the scientist would elide a possibly-solvable concrete problem for an unsolvable but oh-so-interesting abstract one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I know we&#8217;re past the point of cause loss on this comments thread, but I feel I have to defend a quite brilliant joke:<br />
<i>There&#8217;s an old joke about a physicist who, for some reason relevant to the punch line, goes up to a blackboard, draws a circle, and then says, &#8220;Imagine that&#8217;s a cow.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>No. A farmer asks a physicist to help him get his chickens to market &#8211; &#8220;what&#8217;s the most efficient way,&#8221; he asks, &#8220;to stack them in my cart?&#8221;<br />
The physicist, with a gleam in his eye, replies, &#8220;first, imagine the chickens are spherical&#8230;&#8221;</p>

	<p>After <a href="http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_9_98.html" rel="nofollow">1998</a>, the joke lost some of its power. Back when it referred to one of the great unsolved mathematical mysteries, it was funnier that the scientist would elide a possibly-solvable concrete problem for an unsolvable but oh-so-interesting abstract one.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255821</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255821</guid>
		<description>(oops: &#039;Cannoneo&#039; not &#039;Connoneo&#039; - sorry)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(oops: &#8216;Cannoneo&#8217; not &#8216;Connoneo&#8217; &#8211; sorry)</p>
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		<title>By: Sam C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/16/the-moral-sense-test/comment-page-3/#comment-255820</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8132#comment-255820</guid>
		<description>Connoneo - fair enough, and for whatever it&#039;s worth, I agree that that particular use of a hypothetical isn&#039;t much use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Connoneo &#8211; fair enough, and for whatever it&#8217;s worth, I agree that that particular use of a hypothetical isn&#8217;t much use.</p>
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