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	<title>Comments on: Those stupid bankers and their stupid stupidity</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256212</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256212</guid>
		<description>All in all, there just isn&#039;t a convincing micro model that is capable of studying macro issues out there and there may never be. All we have is macro models that claim to have &quot;micro foundations&quot;. But here &quot;micro foundations&quot; basically mean &quot;something somewhere gets maximized&quot;. Other than that those micro foundations are as ad-hocy as those in the older style macro models.
(which isn&#039;t to say that the search for those micro foundations, misguided though it may have been, hasn&#039;t yielded some practical and useful insights, like, say, the stuff on time inconsistency)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>All in all, there just isn&#8217;t a convincing micro model that is capable of studying macro issues out there and there may never be. All we have is macro models that claim to have &#8220;micro foundations&#8221;. But here &#8220;micro foundations&#8221; basically mean &#8220;something somewhere gets maximized&#8221;. Other than that those micro foundations are as ad-hocy as those in the older style macro models.<br />
(which isn&#8217;t to say that the search for those micro foundations, misguided though it may have been, hasn&#8217;t yielded some practical and useful insights, like, say, the stuff on time inconsistency)</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256211</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256211</guid>
		<description>Re: 193 (not sure which Alex this is)
In &quot;normal times&quot; macroeconomic models do pretty well at predicting the direction of change if not the magnitude. When Volcker raised interest rates everybody knew - based on a fairly simple macro model - that recession was in the cards and that inflation would be brought down, the only questions where how long would it take and how deep the recession (in fact the micro-founded macro models predicted a much shorter adjustment process than the clunky IS/LM style ones which got it more right). When Germany reunified, converted the marks at 1:1, fiscally expanded and monetarily contracted and so on, everyone knew - based on a simple Mundell-Fleming macro model - that I&#039;d be hard for Britain to stay committed to the ERM, though not many saw Soros coming with his billions. And so on.

Also, as an aside, Krugman gives Alwyn Young a lot of credit for the underlying analysis for his article on the Asian Miracle (or lack of it), so he wasn&#039;t the only one. And Young&#039;s is basically a growth accounting excercise based on measuring macro inputs. This is also where he got the mis-focus on Singapore since Singapore comes out worst in that paper out of all the Asian Tigers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: 193 (not sure which Alex this is)<br />
In &#8220;normal times&#8221; macroeconomic models do pretty well at predicting the direction of change if not the magnitude. When Volcker raised interest rates everybody knew &#8211; based on a fairly simple macro model &#8211; that recession was in the cards and that inflation would be brought down, the only questions where how long would it take and how deep the recession (in fact the micro-founded macro models predicted a much shorter adjustment process than the clunky IS/LM style ones which got it more right). When Germany reunified, converted the marks at 1:1, fiscally expanded and monetarily contracted and so on, everyone knew &#8211; based on a simple Mundell-Fleming macro model &#8211; that I&#8217;d be hard for Britain to stay committed to the <span class="caps">ERM</span>, though not many saw Soros coming with his billions. And so on.</p>

	<p>Also, as an aside, Krugman gives Alwyn Young a lot of credit for the underlying analysis for his article on the Asian Miracle (or lack of it), so he wasn&#8217;t the only one. And Young&#8217;s is basically a growth accounting excercise based on measuring macro inputs. This is also where he got the mis-focus on Singapore since Singapore comes out worst in that paper out of all the Asian Tigers.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256207</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256207</guid>
		<description>Lemuel, it&#039;s clear that somebody needs to re-invent economics. I&#039;m stuck in northern virginia several miles southwest of the Vienna metro, far from any economists who might talk to me in person. Why &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; try out some beginning ideas here, wherever they fit? There&#039;s always the chance that somebody will make some sort of response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lemuel, it&#8217;s clear that somebody needs to re-invent economics. I&#8217;m stuck in northern virginia several miles southwest of the Vienna metro, far from any economists who might talk to me in person. Why <i>not</i> try out some beginning ideas here, wherever they fit? There&#8217;s always the chance that somebody will make some sort of response.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256206</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256206</guid>
		<description>Dsquared-

It&#039;s a while since I read it, but as I recall the &quot;economic consequences&quot; in question more or less all flow from the persistent current account surpluses Germany would be reuqired to run to pay reparations. No surplus and the argument is irrelevant. 

Of course it&#039;s true that even as a dead letter, the reparations did stoke German resentment. But so did lots of other things, and anyway that&#039;s not an economic consequence.

As a matter of fact, the main economic effect of reparations was to raise the volume of US government loans to Europe through the Dawes and Young plans -- notionally loans to Germany, in practice to England and France. Since Europe needed to finance a current account deficit with the US, just like after WWII, but unlike after WWII there was no political consensus in the US to finance European reconstruction, it&#039;s hard not to see the strictly *economic* consequences of Versailles as positive.

It&#039;s not enough to say that Keynes was right to expect trouble; there has to be some correspondence between how he thought it would come, and how it actually did.

(I believe he himself acknowledged later that ECotP basically got it wrong, but I could be mistaken.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dsquared-</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s a while since I read it, but as I recall the &#8220;economic consequences&#8221; in question more or less all flow from the persistent current account surpluses Germany would be reuqired to run to pay reparations. No surplus and the argument is irrelevant.</p>

	<p>Of course it&#8217;s true that even as a dead letter, the reparations did stoke German resentment. But so did lots of other things, and anyway that&#8217;s not an economic consequence.</p>

	<p>As a matter of fact, the main economic effect of reparations was to raise the volume of US government loans to Europe through the Dawes and Young plans&#8212;notionally loans to Germany, in practice to England and France. Since Europe needed to finance a current account deficit with the US, just like after <span class="caps">WWII</span>, but unlike after <span class="caps">WWII</span> there was no political consensus in the US to finance European reconstruction, it&#8217;s hard not to see the strictly <strong>economic</strong> consequences of Versailles as positive.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not enough to say that Keynes was right to expect trouble; there has to be some correspondence between how he thought it would come, and how it actually did.</p>

	<p>(I believe he himself acknowledged later that ECotP basically got it wrong, but I could be mistaken.)</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256205</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256205</guid>
		<description>The empirical record of macroeconomic predictions is not something that gives them much credibility. 
     So the macroeconomic models work, except when they don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The empirical record of macroeconomic predictions is not something that gives them much credibility.<br />
So the macroeconomic models work, except when they don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkUp</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256202</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkUp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256202</guid>
		<description>&#039;&#039; Sort of like modern day bail outs and such.

I heard stories about hyperinflation and people dying on the street of starvation.&#039;&#039;

At least now the Banksters have a pool of some 70 billion for bonus payments to go along with the bail... &lt;i&gt;Rescue&lt;/i&gt; monies.  Starvation will be curtailed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;&#8217; Sort of like modern day bail outs and such.</p>

	<p>I heard stories about hyperinflation and people dying on the street of starvation.&#8217;&#8217;</p>

	<p>At least now the Banksters have a pool of some 70 billion for bonus payments to go along with the bail&#8230; <i>Rescue</i> monies.  Starvation will be curtailed.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256201</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256201</guid>
		<description>No, I think Keynes still gets prescience points.  The point of calculations like that one is to show that there&#039;s no way in which the numbers can be made to add up to a good result, not so much to pick a specific bad result that&#039;s going to happen.  Krugman didn&#039;t actually predict that the Asian Tiger would end up a series of currency crises (and indeed was quite wrong to focus on Singapore), but he gets the points because he was the only one showing that there wasn&#039;t a miracle going on.  Also, of course, the straightfoward argument about the sustainability of the reparations was won in the first five minutes after Versailles, so much so that a lot of people thought Keynes was being needlessly nitpicking and trivial by treating the Treaty as an actual commitment when &quot;everybody&quot; knew it would immediately be revised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, I think Keynes still gets prescience points.  The point of calculations like that one is to show that there&#8217;s no way in which the numbers can be made to add up to a good result, not so much to pick a specific bad result that&#8217;s going to happen.  Krugman didn&#8217;t actually predict that the Asian Tiger would end up a series of currency crises (and indeed was quite wrong to focus on Singapore), but he gets the points because he was the only one showing that there wasn&#8217;t a miracle going on.  Also, of course, the straightfoward argument about the sustainability of the reparations was won in the first five minutes after Versailles, so much so that a lot of people thought Keynes was being needlessly nitpicking and trivial by treating the Treaty as an actual commitment when &#8220;everybody&#8221; knew it would immediately be revised.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256198</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256198</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t decide if it&#039;s cute or creepy, that J Thomas thinks he can reinvent economics from scratch in a blog comments section.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I can&#8217;t decide if it&#8217;s cute or creepy, that J Thomas thinks he can reinvent economics from scratch in a blog comments section.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256197</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256197</guid>
		<description>The essential fact to rememebr about german war reparations is that there were no German war reparations. Or at least, none that were paid by Germany. The paymetns taht were made were etnirely financed by American loans, which were then forgiven following the second world war. Actual payemnts would have required Germany to run a curent account surplus on a scale that was inconceivable in the post-WWI environemtn, especially given political resistance to corresponding deficits in the rst of Europe and the US -- that was the central argument of Keynes&#039; book. But asPeter Temin points out in &lt;i&gt;Lessons from the Great Depression&lt;/i&gt; (which I happen to be reading): &quot;Despite the nominal obligation of reparations, Germany had a deficit on current account in every year from 1924 through 1929. ... Reparations had no direct effect on the German economy.&quot;

Since the predictions in &lt;i&gt;Economic Consequences&lt;/i&gt; were conditional, they weren&#039;t so much falsified, as proved irrelevant. But the judgement on the book&#039;s prescience still has to be basically negative. Dsqaured&#039;s general point still holds, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The essential fact to rememebr about german war reparations is that there were no German war reparations. Or at least, none that were paid by Germany. The paymetns taht were made were etnirely financed by American loans, which were then forgiven following the second world war. Actual payemnts would have required Germany to run a curent account surplus on a scale that was inconceivable in the post-WWI environemtn, especially given political resistance to corresponding deficits in the rst of Europe and the <span class="caps">US </span>&#8212;that was the central argument of Keynes&#8217; book. But asPeter Temin points out in <i>Lessons from the Great Depression</i> (which I happen to be reading): &#8220;Despite the nominal obligation of reparations, Germany had a deficit on current account in every year from 1924 through 1929. &#8230; Reparations had no direct effect on the German economy.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Since the predictions in <i>Economic Consequences</i> were conditional, they weren&#8217;t so much falsified, as proved irrelevant. But the judgement on the book&#8217;s prescience still has to be basically negative. Dsqaured&#8217;s general point still holds, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256196</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256196</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;It was a bad analogy. Just give up. &lt;/em&gt;

But economics with ecology is a good analogy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>It was a bad analogy. Just give up. </em></p>

	<p>But economics with ecology is a good analogy.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256195</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256195</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not trying to say that ECofP is anything other than an awesome book (it&#039;s an incredibly interesting read), but I thought that the consensus was that it was not as hard for Germany to pay its reparations as Keynes had thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not trying to say that ECofP is anything other than an awesome book (it&#8217;s an incredibly interesting read), but I thought that the consensus was that it was not as hard for Germany to pay its reparations as Keynes had thought.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256194</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256194</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I think that’s cause the amount of reparations got marked down as the realization that Germany wouldn’t be able to pay became obvious. Sort of like modern day bail outs and such.&lt;/em&gt;

I heard stories about hyperinflation and people dying on the street of starvation. Did the bailouts come quickly enough or strongly enough? I think if we got enough inflation that peoples yearly social security payments would buy them a loaf of bread, and we got significant numbers of people starving on the sidewalks, we might get some horrible political consequences even if there were some bailouts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>I think that&#8217;s cause the amount of reparations got marked down as the realization that Germany wouldn&#8217;t be able to pay became obvious. Sort of like modern day bail outs and such.</em></p>

	<p>I heard stories about hyperinflation and people dying on the street of starvation. Did the bailouts come quickly enough or strongly enough? I think if we got enough inflation that peoples yearly social security payments would buy them a loaf of bread, and we got significant numbers of people starving on the sidewalks, we might get some horrible political consequences even if there were some bailouts.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256193</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256193</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Animal trainers don’t predict real well&lt;/i&gt;

It was a bad analogy.  Just give up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Animal trainers don&#8217;t predict real well</i></p>

	<p>It was a bad analogy.  Just give up.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256192</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256192</guid>
		<description>Here was the final axe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne_Conference_of_1932

but they got rescheduled and the like even before that. Basically France couldn&#039;t scrap the agreement wo loosing face but for all practical purposes, Germany WAS unable to pay up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here was the final axe<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne_Conference_of_1932" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne_Conference_of_1932</a></p>

	<p>but they got rescheduled and the like even before that. Basically France couldn&#8217;t scrap the agreement wo loosing face but for all practical purposes, Germany <span class="caps">WAS</span> unable to pay up.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/17/those-stupid-bankers-and-their-stupid-stupidity/comment-page-4/#comment-256191</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8164#comment-256191</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;and psychologists ought to be able to predict individual human behavior just as well as horticulturalists predict individual plant behavior and animal trainers predict animal behavior.&lt;/i&gt;

MQ, I&#039;m pretty sure that if psychologists spent 20 generations or so breeding lab-humans to be predictable, we could predict them as horticulturalists.

Animal trainers don&#039;t predict real well, they look hard for individual clues (cues) that let them get desired results with individual animals. And they try to make the consequences for the animal as consistent as they can.

If a psychologist wanted to get college students to do cute animal tricks with complete reliability, and he paid off in $100 bills or co-eds, he might get a pretty good result. College students are in general hard to train because it&#039;s hard to get their attention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>and psychologists ought to be able to predict individual human behavior just as well as horticulturalists predict individual plant behavior and animal trainers predict animal behavior.</i></p>

	<p>MQ, I&#8217;m pretty sure that if psychologists spent 20 generations or so breeding lab-humans to be predictable, we could predict them as horticulturalists.</p>

	<p>Animal trainers don&#8217;t predict real well, they look hard for individual clues (cues) that let them get desired results with individual animals. And they try to make the consequences for the animal as consistent as they can.</p>

	<p>If a psychologist wanted to get college students to do cute animal tricks with complete reliability, and he paid off in $100 bills or co-eds, he might get a pretty good result. College students are in general hard to train because it&#8217;s hard to get their attention.</p>
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