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	<title>Comments on: Furious agreement</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Upstate (New York)</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-2/#comment-258886</link>
		<dc:creator>Upstate (New York)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258886</guid>
		<description>Lesson, what lesson?  We won in Iraq and were cheated of our victory by liberal traitor Barack Obama, or so will go the neocon revisionist propagand in the 2012 election cycle!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lesson, what lesson?  We won in Iraq and were cheated of our victory by liberal traitor Barack Obama, or so will go the neocon revisionist propagand in the 2012 election cycle!</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-2/#comment-258789</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think Hobsbawn also dates the beginning of the decline of American dominance at around 1960 in &quot;Age of Extremes&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Hobsbawn also dates the beginning of the decline of American dominance at around 1960 in &#8220;Age of Extremes&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: ffrancis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-2/#comment-258781</link>
		<dc:creator>ffrancis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258781</guid>
		<description>Nah...just toasters. Too late for a wake-up call.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nah&#8230;just toasters. Too late for a wake-up call.</p>
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		<title>By: beowulf888</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-2/#comment-258778</link>
		<dc:creator>beowulf888</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258778</guid>
		<description>What I want to know is, now that we&#039;ve bailed out all the banks, do we all get free clock-radios?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What I want to know is, now that we&#8217;ve bailed out all the banks, do we all get free clock-radios?</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-2/#comment-258776</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 04:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258776</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t need to kill the bankers. Just revoke their license to steal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We don&#8217;t need to kill the bankers. Just revoke their license to steal.</p>
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		<title>By: Reagankid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258774</link>
		<dc:creator>Reagankid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 04:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258774</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s often the case that a trend of chronological hubris takes place. &quot;No one has ever had it as badly as we do,&quot; &quot;no one has ever had as much potential as we do,&quot; etc.  So no, the U.S. is not experiencing any &quot;sudden&quot; downturn - it&#039;s been in the wash for a while now.

I&#039;m not convinced by the liberal illuminati, though, that government intervention is going to play Superman and save the day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s often the case that a trend of chronological hubris takes place. &#8220;No one has ever had it as badly as we do,&#8221; &#8220;no one has ever had as much potential as we do,&#8221; etc.  So no, the U.S. is not experiencing any &#8220;sudden&#8221; downturn &#8211; it&#8217;s been in the wash for a while now.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not convinced by the liberal illuminati, though, that government intervention is going to play Superman and save the day.</p>
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		<title>By: virgil xenophon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258773</link>
		<dc:creator>virgil xenophon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258773</guid>
		<description>First, let&#039;s kill all the Bankers.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>First, let&#8217;s kill all the Bankers&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258766</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258766</guid>
		<description>Detlef, thank you! That does make sense.

So the dollar is the reserve currency, and people who need dollars have trouble getting them because the banks have deflated the supply.

Which reminds me, why is it we let these banks manipulate our money supply? I can see the historical reasons -- banks were powerful when government was weak, and it was a daring move for governments to declare a monopoly on printing money and forbid banknotes. But why should we continue to trust these bozos to manage the currency? They haven&#039;t been doing all that great a job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Detlef, thank you! That does make sense.</p>

	<p>So the dollar is the reserve currency, and people who need dollars have trouble getting them because the banks have deflated the supply.</p>

	<p>Which reminds me, why is it we let these banks manipulate our money supply? I can see the historical reasons&#8212;banks were powerful when government was weak, and it was a daring move for governments to declare a monopoly on printing money and forbid banknotes. But why should we continue to trust these bozos to manage the currency? They haven&#8217;t been doing all that great a job.</p>
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		<title>By: El Cid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258758</link>
		<dc:creator>El Cid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258758</guid>
		<description>By the way, when I am persuaded that the U.S. &quot;dominated&quot; the post-WWII period, I have never, ever interpreted that to mean perfect domination, or 100% enforcement of U.S. establishment foreign policy wishes.  Most people do not use the term in the political science attempt to state such summary views as nearly scientific empirical generalizations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>By the way, when I am persuaded that the U.S. &#8220;dominated&#8221; the post-WWII period, I have never, ever interpreted that to mean perfect domination, or 100% enforcement of U.S. establishment foreign policy wishes.  Most people do not use the term in the political science attempt to state such summary views as nearly scientific empirical generalizations.</p>
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		<title>By: El Cid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258757</link>
		<dc:creator>El Cid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258757</guid>
		<description>With the nearly permanent and almost synchronized practice of having repeated &quot;BUT YOU WILL ADMIT THE SURGE IS WORKING&quot; for the last couple of years, I think no deep lesson has been learned at all by anyone of the war hawk persuasion, and now it will be dogma that if you have a strong, manly man like General Petraeus in charge, it&#039;s perfectly fine and sensible to invade &amp; occupy a large, hostile nation which has not had a tradition of democratic governance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>With the nearly permanent and almost synchronized practice of having repeated &#8220;BUT <span class="caps">YOU WILL ADMIT THE SURGE IS WORKING</span>&#8221; for the last couple of years, I think no deep lesson has been learned at all by anyone of the war hawk persuasion, and now it will be dogma that if you have a strong, manly man like General Petraeus in charge, it&#8217;s perfectly fine and sensible to invade &#038; occupy a large, hostile nation which has not had a tradition of democratic governance.</p>
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		<title>By: Detlef</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258753</link>
		<dc:creator>Detlef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258753</guid>
		<description>J Thomas asked:

&lt;i&gt;I’ve been wondering about that. Do you have an explanation? It just plain doesn’t make sense, does it?

We have a financial catastrophe, there’s every reason to expect the dollar to be devalued even further, every reason to expect a lot of inflation, and somebody foreign wants dollars!&lt;/i&gt;

From what I´ve read on economic blogs part of the reason for the rising dollar seems to be de-leveraging. Till 2007 or so it was pretty easy to get a loan. And I suspect lots of these (international) loans were denominated in dollars.

1) You wanted to finance a merger, leveraged-buy-out or take control of an English Premier League football club on credit? You went to an investment bank to put together a loan package. 

2) I´ve read that in countries like Iceland or the East European countries lots of loans (consumer loans, car loans, mortgages) were made in foreign currencies (dollars, Euros, yen, Swiss franc).  Maybe in other regions of the world too? I don´t know the reason for that, maybe lower interest rates?
Anyway, how can an Icelandic or Hungarian bank make a loan denominated in dollars? It first has to get a dollar loan from an American bank before it can then loan dollars to its customers.

3) Plus the usual dollar denominated bonds issued by foreign governments or large businesses.

Now a lot of these original loans in 1) and 2) are probably short term or middle term loans. While the follow-up loans/contracts (mortgage, merger for example) were middle or long term &quot;assets&quot;. That wasn´t a problem before the credit crunch. When one loan became due you could just get a new loan to pay the old one.

After the credit crunch though banks became really reluctant to extend loans. So I suspect lots of organizations suddenly had to scramble for dollars to pay back mature loans. That might explain why the Fed entered in such large dollar swap agreements with other Central Banks. Huge dollar demand, not enough supply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>J Thomas asked:</p>

	<p><i>I&#8217;ve been wondering about that. Do you have an explanation? It just plain doesn&#8217;t make sense, does it?</i></p>

	<p>We have a financial catastrophe, there&#8217;s every reason to expect the dollar to be devalued even further, every reason to expect a lot of inflation, and somebody foreign wants dollars!</p>

	<p>From what I&#180;ve read on economic blogs part of the reason for the rising dollar seems to be de-leveraging. Till 2007 or so it was pretty easy to get a loan. And I suspect lots of these (international) loans were denominated in dollars.</p>

	<p>1) You wanted to finance a merger, leveraged-buy-out or take control of an English Premier League football club on credit? You went to an investment bank to put together a loan package.</p>

	<p>2) I&#180;ve read that in countries like Iceland or the East European countries lots of loans (consumer loans, car loans, mortgages) were made in foreign currencies (dollars, Euros, yen, Swiss franc).  Maybe in other regions of the world too? I don&#180;t know the reason for that, maybe lower interest rates?<br />
Anyway, how can an Icelandic or Hungarian bank make a loan denominated in dollars? It first has to get a dollar loan from an American bank before it can then loan dollars to its customers.</p>

	<p>3) Plus the usual dollar denominated bonds issued by foreign governments or large businesses.</p>

	<p>Now a lot of these original loans in 1) and 2) are probably short term or middle term loans. While the follow-up loans/contracts (mortgage, merger for example) were middle or long term &#8220;assets&#8221;. That wasn&#180;t a problem before the credit crunch. When one loan became due you could just get a new loan to pay the old one.</p>

	<p>After the credit crunch though banks became really reluctant to extend loans. So I suspect lots of organizations suddenly had to scramble for dollars to pay back mature loans. That might explain why the Fed entered in such large dollar swap agreements with other Central Banks. Huge dollar demand, not enough supply.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258749</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258749</guid>
		<description>Kagan says in this column (and I think he also said in a recent Foreign Affairs article) that the Iraq war has not altered the &quot;strategic balance&quot; in the Middle East, b/c American allies there are still allies, and Iraq, once an adversary, &quot;is now an ally.&quot; But this ignores that the Iraq war strengthened Iran by getting rid of a regime that was Iran&#039;s enemy and replacing it with one that Iran can influence. More importantly, Kagan looks  only at the alignments of governments (or states), not acknowledging that nonstate actors (Hamas, Hezbollah, e.g.) have an impact on the strategic balance in the region. To the extent that the Iraq war contributed, perhaps indirectly, to Hamas&#039; victory in the Palestinian elections in Jan. &#039;06 and to the Israel-Hezbollah war in summer &#039;06, it did alter the balance in the region, maybe not drastically, but more than Kagan allows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kagan says in this column (and I think he also said in a recent Foreign Affairs article) that the Iraq war has not altered the &#8220;strategic balance&#8221; in the Middle East, b/c American allies there are still allies, and Iraq, once an adversary, &#8220;is now an ally.&#8221; But this ignores that the Iraq war strengthened Iran by getting rid of a regime that was Iran&#8217;s enemy and replacing it with one that Iran can influence. More importantly, Kagan looks  only at the alignments of governments (or states), not acknowledging that nonstate actors (Hamas, Hezbollah, e.g.) have an impact on the strategic balance in the region. To the extent that the Iraq war contributed, perhaps indirectly, to Hamas&#8217; victory in the Palestinian elections in Jan. &#8216;06 and to the Israel-Hezbollah war in summer &#8216;06, it did alter the balance in the region, maybe not drastically, but more than Kagan allows.</p>
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		<title>By: e julius drivingstorm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258745</link>
		<dc:creator>e julius drivingstorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 10:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258745</guid>
		<description>c.l.

Didn&#039;t you mean to say?

...and its military power could &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; compel submission...

also, same paragraph, you may have and &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; where you mean &lt;i&gt;as&lt;/i&gt;.

More to your point, my way of thinking is that the Reagan/Weinberger approach of bombing Tripoli or conquering mighty Grenada to everyone&#039;s surprise, as opposed to Powell&#039;s Gulf War I to nobody&#039;s surprise and everyone&#039;s support, are both excellent examples of not biting off more than you can chew.  Unless you meant Powell&#039;s unfortunate selling of the current Iraq war to the UN, which he never would have gone along with had he known his facts weren&#039;t truthy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>c.l.</p>

	<p>Didn&#8217;t you mean to say?</p>

	<p>&#8230;and its military power could <i>not</i> compel submission&#8230;</p>

	<p>also, same paragraph, you may have and <i>is</i> where you mean <i>as</i>.</p>

	<p>More to your point, my way of thinking is that the Reagan/Weinberger approach of bombing Tripoli or conquering mighty Grenada to everyone&#8217;s surprise, as opposed to Powell&#8217;s Gulf War I to nobody&#8217;s surprise and everyone&#8217;s support, are both excellent examples of not biting off more than you can chew.  Unless you meant Powell&#8217;s unfortunate selling of the current Iraq war to the UN, which he never would have gone along with had he known his facts weren&#8217;t truthy.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258744</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258744</guid>
		<description>Any student of Anglo-American international relations will be familiar with debates over whether the US was a post-WWII hegemon, for how long, and to what effect (roughly late 70s through 1980s -- the debate, not the hegemony), and then the post-1991 debate over whether the US was a unipolar power, for how long, and to what effect. 

But Kagan and Quiggin seem to be conflating two distinct issues. The first  is whether the relative standing on material and social indicators translates into commensurate influence over others (the hegemony and unipolarity debates). The second is the efficacy of military force (the Vietnam and Iraq debates). 

US dominance did not guarantee it undisputed allied support for the wars in Vietnam or Iraq, and its military power could compel submission in those areas. None of this bodes well for Afghanistan.  US military, economic, and social might does not enable it to root out al Qaeda from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Cooperation by US allies will not change this is the problem is the ineffectiveness of military force. 


By the way, the &quot;Vietnam syndrome&quot; is the US fear that military interventions will lead to quagmires.  The Lebanon pullout in 1983, Somalia pullout in 1993, the Rwandan non-intervention in 1994, the aversion to ground intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s, and the effective neglect of Sudan and Congo are all the results of this &quot;syndrome.&quot; The answer was the Weinberger/Powell doctrine of overwhelming, decisive, and short uses of force, which often meant excessive, disproportionate, and abrupt uses of force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Any student of Anglo-American international relations will be familiar with debates over whether the US was a post-WWII hegemon, for how long, and to what effect (roughly late 70s through 1980s&#8212;the debate, not the hegemony), and then the post-1991 debate over whether the US was a unipolar power, for how long, and to what effect.</p>

	<p>But Kagan and Quiggin seem to be conflating two distinct issues. The first  is whether the relative standing on material and social indicators translates into commensurate influence over others (the hegemony and unipolarity debates). The second is the efficacy of military force (the Vietnam and Iraq debates).</p>

	<p>US dominance did not guarantee it undisputed allied support for the wars in Vietnam or Iraq, and its military power could compel submission in those areas. None of this bodes well for Afghanistan.  US military, economic, and social might does not enable it to root out al Qaeda from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Cooperation by US allies will not change this is the problem is the ineffectiveness of military force.</p>


	<p>By the way, the &#8220;Vietnam syndrome&#8221; is the US fear that military interventions will lead to quagmires.  The Lebanon pullout in 1983, Somalia pullout in 1993, the Rwandan non-intervention in 1994, the aversion to ground intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s, and the effective neglect of Sudan and Congo are all the results of this &#8220;syndrome.&#8221; The answer was the Weinberger/Powell doctrine of overwhelming, decisive, and short uses of force, which often meant excessive, disproportionate, and abrupt uses of force.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Codding</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/15/furious-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-258741</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Codding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8505#comment-258741</guid>
		<description>I just clicked the link and read &quot;Still No. 1,&quot; by Robert Kagan, dated October 30, 2008. He doesn&#039;t talk about decline, in fact he calls it &quot;faddish declinism.&quot; Although he talks about some of the United States&#039; shortcomings, he goes on to say &quot;The danger of today&#039;s declinism is not that it is true but that the next president will act as if it is.&quot;

It sounds to me as though Kagan believes America is still a superpower. To Richard Haas&#039; statement that the United States remains &quot;the single most powerful entity in the world&quot; but that it &quot;cannot dominate, much less dictate, and expect that others will follow&quot; Kagan says &quot;That is true. But when was it not?&quot;

We went through this soul searching after the United States lost the Vietnam War. Now we are doing it again because withdrawal from Iraq sounds like &quot;defeat.&quot; But to those of us who said we never should have invaded Iraq, it is a Pyrrhic victory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just clicked the link and read &#8220;Still No. 1,&#8221; by Robert Kagan, dated October 30, 2008. He doesn&#8217;t talk about decline, in fact he calls it &#8220;faddish declinism.&#8221; Although he talks about some of the United States&#8217; shortcomings, he goes on to say &#8220;The danger of today&#8217;s declinism is not that it is true but that the next president will act as if it is.&#8221;</p>

	<p>It sounds to me as though Kagan believes America is still a superpower. To Richard Haas&#8217; statement that the United States remains &#8220;the single most powerful entity in the world&#8221; but that it &#8220;cannot dominate, much less dictate, and expect that others will follow&#8221; Kagan says &#8220;That is true. But when was it not?&#8221;</p>

	<p>We went through this soul searching after the United States lost the Vietnam War. Now we are doing it again because withdrawal from Iraq sounds like &#8220;defeat.&#8221; But to those of us who said we never should have invaded Iraq, it is a Pyrrhic victory.</p>
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