<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: E-Fax hell</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:58:32 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259410</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259410</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;...for World of Warcraft, with no human interaction required it’s completely impossible to cancel online. You must physically phone someone...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

This is simply untrue—I&#039;ve canceled my recurring subscription several times and just now I double-checked to be sure the cancellation option is still there.  It is.  I&#039;m very curious about your assertion.  Are you thinking of a different game?

My example of this is GoToMyPC.  I signed up four years ago for use while I was out-of-town and had intended to cancel once I was back home.  When I attempted it, I discovered that the only way to cancel was to call their customer service number.  Now, I have to admit that I have what I wouldn&#039;t call a &quot;phobia&quot;, but certainly a strong dislike of talking to strangers on the telephone.  So I put it off.  And I kept putting it off.  And so I eventually paid for the stupid thing for &lt;i&gt;two years&lt;/i&gt; because I didn&#039;t want to talk to someone on the phone.  Eventually I bit the bullet and canceled.  But this whole idea of making it very easy to sign up but very difficult to cancel really leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.  It makes me angry—and that&#039;s without anyone actually defrauding me as they did Henry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;for World of Warcraft, with no human interaction required it&#8217;s completely impossible to cancel online. You must physically phone someone&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>This is simply untrue&#8212;I&#8217;ve canceled my recurring subscription several times and just now I double-checked to be sure the cancellation option is still there.  It is.  I&#8217;m very curious about your assertion.  Are you thinking of a different game?</p>

	<p>My example of this is GoToMyPC.  I signed up four years ago for use while I was out-of-town and had intended to cancel once I was back home.  When I attempted it, I discovered that the only way to cancel was to call their customer service number.  Now, I have to admit that I have what I wouldn&#8217;t call a &#8220;phobia&#8221;, but certainly a strong dislike of talking to strangers on the telephone.  So I put it off.  And I kept putting it off.  And so I eventually paid for the stupid thing for <i>two years</i> because I didn&#8217;t want to talk to someone on the phone.  Eventually I bit the bullet and canceled.  But this whole idea of making it very easy to sign up but very difficult to cancel really leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.  It makes me angry&#8212;and that&#8217;s without anyone actually defrauding me as they did Henry.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259341</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259341</guid>
		<description>I worked briefly for an &#039;academic consultancy company&#039; (read: fee-based cheating company for rich, lazy students). 

Their policy in this regard was to make it as difficult as possible for anyone to get a refund, or even a glimpse of a refund, despite the fact that a large majority of briefs merited at least some of the bloated fee to be returned. A standard tactic was to get one of the &#039;phone operators to claim that the customer would need to speak to the managing director, who was always out of the office (again, not true).

They had revenue streams in the tens of thousands of pounds a week, a large portion of which they retained through tactics exactly like this. Also, I lost my job there after stating my objection (coming from a resentment of such low-handed, double-dealing dickheadery) to their practices, which says a lot about the pressure internally against dealing with customers in what most people would consider a fair fashion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I worked briefly for an &#8216;academic consultancy company&#8217; (read: fee-based cheating company for rich, lazy students).</p>

	<p>Their policy in this regard was to make it as difficult as possible for anyone to get a refund, or even a glimpse of a refund, despite the fact that a large majority of briefs merited at least some of the bloated fee to be returned. A standard tactic was to get one of the &#8216;phone operators to claim that the customer would need to speak to the managing director, who was always out of the office (again, not true).</p>

	<p>They had revenue streams in the tens of thousands of pounds a week, a large portion of which they retained through tactics exactly like this. Also, I lost my job there after stating my objection (coming from a resentment of such low-handed, double-dealing dickheadery) to their practices, which says a lot about the pressure internally against dealing with customers in what most people would consider a fair fashion.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Theron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259340</link>
		<dc:creator>Theron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259340</guid>
		<description>Thieves, plain and simple. The notion that you are at fault somehow for not checking up is nonsense. You are no more responsible for this than you would be if some restaurant reran your credit card number and charged you each day for some lunch you bought a year ago.

Time for some enterprising lawyer to work up a class action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thieves, plain and simple. The notion that you are at fault somehow for not checking up is nonsense. You are no more responsible for this than you would be if some restaurant reran your credit card number and charged you each day for some lunch you bought a year ago.</p>

	<p>Time for some enterprising lawyer to work up a class action.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Richards</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259334</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Richards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259334</guid>
		<description>Your post reminded me to phone up (their UK number) and cancel mine - I got connected through to customer support inside two rings, and spent about a minute total to cancel it, with a confirmation email requested. I&#039;ll have to see if both actions happen, but the process seems pretty good so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Your post reminded me to phone up (their UK number) and cancel mine &#8211; I got connected through to customer support inside two rings, and spent about a minute total to cancel it, with a confirmation email requested. I&#8217;ll have to see if both actions happen, but the process seems pretty good so far.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Patrick Nielsen Hayden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259220</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Nielsen Hayden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259220</guid>
		<description>I cancelled an eFax account this month.  They still require you to do it via live online chat, which is odious of them; and I was brisk with the minion who tried to run their spiel of inducements to stay.  (I indeed remarked that the deliberate difficulty of cancelling was one of the reasons I was doing so.)

Notably, I subsequently received an email with a confirmation number, confirming my cancellation. So perhaps they&#039;ve marginally improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I cancelled an eFax account this month.  They still require you to do it via live online chat, which is odious of them; and I was brisk with the minion who tried to run their spiel of inducements to stay.  (I indeed remarked that the deliberate difficulty of cancelling was one of the reasons I was doing so.)</p>

	<p>Notably, I subsequently received an email with a confirmation number, confirming my cancellation. So perhaps they&#8217;ve marginally improved.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MCG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259215</link>
		<dc:creator>MCG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259215</guid>
		<description>@Jasper:

I&#039;m in the UK, and have found my credit card company tends to believe the cardholder rather than the merchant when it comes to such tomfoolery - probably because they hear lots of such complaints. Oh yes, and of course keep an eye on your statements like Janice said, so you can nip such goings-on in the bud.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@Jasper:</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m in the UK, and have found my credit card company tends to believe the cardholder rather than the merchant when it comes to such tomfoolery &#8211; probably because they hear lots of such complaints. Oh yes, and of course keep an eye on your statements like Janice said, so you can nip such goings-on in the bud.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259206</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259206</guid>
		<description>Shannonr,  I&#039;ll have to disagree about the online gaming cancellations. I&#039;ve had accounts on many different systems and have been able to cancel all of them online -- EQ (twice), DAoC and WoW (twice as well). I cancelled WoW last month and it hasn&#039;t been showing up on my credit card statement since. You have to go through a couple of screens on most of the services to cancel, but it&#039;s no big hassle.

And definitely everyone should be checking their credit card statements regularly. That&#039;s what helped me when my card for work was compromised! Sorry about the eFax suckitude, though, Henry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shannonr,  I&#8217;ll have to disagree about the online gaming cancellations. I&#8217;ve had accounts on many different systems and have been able to cancel all of them online&#8212;<span class="caps">EQ </span>(twice), DAoC and WoW (twice as well). I cancelled WoW last month and it hasn&#8217;t been showing up on my credit card statement since. You have to go through a couple of screens on most of the services to cancel, but it&#8217;s no big hassle.</p>

	<p>And definitely everyone should be checking their credit card statements regularly. That&#8217;s what helped me when my card for work was compromised! Sorry about the eFax suckitude, though, Henry!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Britta</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259187</link>
		<dc:creator>Britta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259187</guid>
		<description>I would talk to the credit card company to try and get all the charges removed. If that doesn&#039;t work, I would call up e-fax, speak to absolutely the most senior person possible, and tell them that you will be filing a complaint with the FCC, Better Business Bureau, the Attorney General&#039;s Office and any other possible organization you can think of unless they refund two year&#039;s worth of funds. Generally, the pain of dealing with you and having a black mark on their record is not worth the couple hundred dollars they might retain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would talk to the credit card company to try and get all the charges removed. If that doesn&#8217;t work, I would call up e-fax, speak to absolutely the most senior person possible, and tell them that you will be filing a complaint with the <span class="caps">FCC</span>, Better Business Bureau, the Attorney General&#8217;s Office and any other possible organization you can think of unless they refund two year&#8217;s worth of funds. Generally, the pain of dealing with you and having a black mark on their record is not worth the couple hundred dollars they might retain.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Danielle Day</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259183</link>
		<dc:creator>Danielle Day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259183</guid>
		<description>Jeez, i mean who uses faxes anymore anyway? Sending/getting faxes via email is like hitching your Prius up to a Clydesdale team. Nevertheless, @ mt300, c.l. ball and others, take these kinds of complaints up with the credit card company. They&#039;ll remove the charges right away, you bet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jeez, i mean who uses faxes anymore anyway? Sending/getting faxes via email is like hitching your Prius up to a Clydesdale team. Nevertheless, @ mt300, c.l. ball and others, take these kinds of complaints up with the credit card company. They&#8217;ll remove the charges right away, you bet.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: djr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259176</link>
		<dc:creator>djr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259176</guid>
		<description>Is &quot;we don&#039;t have any record of that&quot; the new &quot;cheque&#039;s in the post&quot;?  &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7737357.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Another &quot;researcher with call centre issues&quot; story&lt;/a&gt; that might amuse you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is &#8220;we don&#8217;t have any record of that&#8221; the new &#8220;cheque&#8217;s in the post&#8221;?  <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7737357.stm" rel="nofollow">Another &#8220;researcher with call centre issues&#8221; story</a> that might amuse you!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259166</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259166</guid>
		<description>That should be &quot;...[NetZero] asked [me] to upgrade...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That should be &#8220;&#8230;[NetZero] asked [me] to upgrade&#8230;&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259165</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259165</guid>
		<description>NetZero did the same thing w/ me a few years back. I needed a dial-up service for a brief period, but after paying for the first tier level, it did not work. I tried one help session, but it still failed. I called to cancel but asked to &lt;i&gt;upgrade&lt;/i&gt; to a more expensive package. I said &quot;no&quot; and definitive, Ted-Stevens-like &quot;No!&quot; (I stupidly called from my cell phone rather than waiting until I returned to my office, where I taped all my calls). The next two months, a NetZero charge. Their phone people made the same claim as Henry got &quot;no, you never cancelled.&quot; 

I wrote my credit card company and they had the charges removed.  I filed a complaint w/ the Iowa AG because it clearly seemed like a scam, not a mistake. The AG did little since my case had been resolved.

 Clearly, this is a standard industry practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>NetZero did the same thing w/ me a few years back. I needed a dial-up service for a brief period, but after paying for the first tier level, it did not work. I tried one help session, but it still failed. I called to cancel but asked to <i>upgrade</i> to a more expensive package. I said &#8220;no&#8221; and definitive, Ted-Stevens-like &#8220;No!&#8221; (I stupidly called from my cell phone rather than waiting until I returned to my office, where I taped all my calls). The next two months, a NetZero charge. Their phone people made the same claim as Henry got &#8220;no, you never cancelled.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I wrote my credit card company and they had the charges removed.  I filed a complaint w/ the Iowa AG because it clearly seemed like a scam, not a mistake. The AG did little since my case had been resolved.</p>

	<p>Clearly, this is a standard industry practice.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: m3t00</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259158</link>
		<dc:creator>m3t00</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259158</guid>
		<description>Lesson 1: Check your credit and debit card statements. Always. In detail.

Lesson 2: Online payments are fine; automatic payments suck.

Lesson 3: Learn to love the word “fraud,” because you’ll be using it a lot in the future.

Lesson 4: Change your credit/debit card numbers once per year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lesson 1: Check your credit and debit card statements. Always. In detail.</p>

	<p>Lesson 2: Online payments are fine; automatic payments suck.</p>

	<p>Lesson 3: Learn to love the word &#8220;fraud,&#8221; because you&#8217;ll be using it a lot in the future.</p>

	<p>Lesson 4: Change your credit/debit card numbers once per year.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259143</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259143</guid>
		<description>This is one of those services, I think, that doesn&#039;t worry about reputation, so public complaints on the web aren&#039;t going to help much.  It exists by entrapping the unaware and making it almost impossible to leave.  I seriously heard of a story of a company whose biggest revenue problem was that credit cards eventually expired and were replaced and they were wondering if there was a way to get  the new expiration dates/security codes.

But even more mainstream services put up road blocks.  Sometimes this results in legal action:

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/24/235233

So maybe, if this is a pattern with E-Fax (and I bet it is), the next move should be contacting the relevant legal authority.

Personally, I try to avoid signing up for any service that involves a direct charge on my credit card or direct withdrawal from my bank acct.  If they can&#039;t send a bill, I can live without whatever they&#039;re selling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is one of those services, I think, that doesn&#8217;t worry about reputation, so public complaints on the web aren&#8217;t going to help much.  It exists by entrapping the unaware and making it almost impossible to leave.  I seriously heard of a story of a company whose biggest revenue problem was that credit cards eventually expired and were replaced and they were wondering if there was a way to get  the new expiration dates/security codes.</p>

	<p>But even more mainstream services put up road blocks.  Sometimes this results in legal action:</p>

	<p><a href="http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/24/235233" rel="nofollow">http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/24/235233</a></p>

	<p>So maybe, if this is a pattern with E-Fax (and I bet it is), the next move should be contacting the relevant legal authority.</p>

	<p>Personally, I try to avoid signing up for any service that involves a direct charge on my credit card or direct withdrawal from my bank acct.  If they can&#8217;t send a bill, I can live without whatever they&#8217;re selling.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/21/e-fax-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-259100</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8575#comment-259100</guid>
		<description>Also, consider getting another credit card for such monthly purchases.  Something that you&#039;ll pay off every month, and which will only have a few charges every month.  This would be easier to check, and you could cancel it upon finding bogus charges, with minimal hassle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, consider getting another credit card for such monthly purchases.  Something that you&#8217;ll pay off every month, and which will only have a few charges every month.  This would be easier to check, and you could cancel it upon finding bogus charges, with minimal hassle.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
