Comments on: The decline and fall of the London Irish Social Services industry http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:51:42 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Chris Borthwick http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-260037 Chris Borthwick Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:24:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-260037 Interestingly, we're now seeing just about the only avowedly antidemocratic mass movement of the twentyfirst century showing up: the Thai protesters want a 30% elevted 70% appointed legislature, to head off the inevitable vote of the peasants for Berlusconi look-alikes. Interestingly, we’re now seeing just about the only avowedly antidemocratic mass movement of the twentyfirst century showing up: the Thai protesters want a 30% elevted 70% appointed legislature, to head off the inevitable vote of the peasants for Berlusconi look-alikes.

]]> By: toby http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259925 toby Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:03:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259925 "...that Irish people were a systematically disadvantaged ethnic group, who could reasonably be expected to have low educational achievement, low average incomes, frequent experience of illegal discrimination and higher incidences of all sorts of social problems." Discrimination against the Irish in England was always a popular story in Irish newspapers. It is true that the Celtic Tiger pretty much killed off that meme. I was waiting for a new organization to get started "Blacks and Irish against Racism", but (strangely) it never seemed to get started. “…that Irish people were a systematically disadvantaged ethnic group, who could reasonably be expected to have low educational achievement, low average incomes, frequent experience of illegal discrimination and higher incidences of all sorts of social problems.”

Discrimination against the Irish in England was always a popular story in Irish newspapers. It is true that the Celtic Tiger pretty much killed off that meme. I was waiting for a new organization to get started “Blacks and Irish against Racism”, but (strangely) it never seemed to get started.

]]> By: john b http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259904 john b Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:40:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259904 "<i>It can be a feature, but it is also very problematic. If you don’t feel that way, you’re not a democrat.</i>" On a pragmatic "least worst results" level, I wholeheartedly support representative democracy over all other known forms of government. However, I don't think I've ever seen a convincing case for democracy on any grounds other than pragmatism... “It can be a feature, but it is also very problematic. If you don’t feel that way, you’re not a democrat.”

On a pragmatic “least worst results” level, I wholeheartedly support representative democracy over all other known forms of government. However, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a convincing case for democracy on any grounds other than pragmatism…

]]> By: magistra http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259898 magistra Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:47:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259898 <i>If your native language is Urdu, and I greet you in Urdu, how am I helping you to know more than one language? The point can be overblown, but the dangers of accommodation leading to ghettoization aren’t nonexistent.</i> What Phil Woolas was using as an example was <b>one</b> notice in a school which would almost certainly be teaching entirely in English. If I greet you in Urdu before going onto conduct a conversation in English with you that's not ghettoisation, that's one form politeness can take. Phil Woolas is trying to blur the distinction between this kind of respect for other cultures and enabling segregated societies to play on the prejudices of British racists. If your native language is Urdu, and I greet you in Urdu, how am I helping you to know more than one language? The point can be overblown, but the dangers of accommodation leading to ghettoization aren’t nonexistent.

What Phil Woolas was using as an example was one notice in a school which would almost certainly be teaching entirely in English. If I greet you in Urdu before going onto conduct a conversation in English with you that’s not ghettoisation, that’s one form politeness can take. Phil Woolas is trying to blur the distinction between this kind of respect for other cultures and enabling segregated societies to play on the prejudices of British racists.

]]> By: Johnny Pez http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259845 Johnny Pez Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:15:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259845 <i>That’s it, I’m moving to Cardiff…</i> Say hi to the Weevils for me. That’s it, I’m moving to Cardiff…

Say hi to the Weevils for me.

]]> By: Freshly Squeezed Cynic http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259821 Freshly Squeezed Cynic Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:37:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259821 novakant - certainly it's problematic, but it doesn't pose any problem to Dsquared's argument that the three main political parties are exploiting these racial/cultural grievances whilst actively lying about what they'd do. novakant – certainly it’s problematic, but it doesn’t pose any problem to Dsquared’s argument that the three main political parties are exploiting these racial/cultural grievances whilst actively lying about what they’d do.

]]> By: novakant http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259757 novakant Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:10:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259757 <i>This is a feature of representative democracy, not a bug.</i> It can be a feature, but it is also very problematic. If you don't feel that way, you're not a democrat. This is a feature of representative democracy, not a bug.

It can be a feature, but it is also very problematic. If you don’t feel that way, you’re not a democrat.

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259754 dsquared Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:23:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259754 Chris in 32 is entirely correct. Chris in 32 is entirely correct.

]]> By: PersonFromPorlock http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259752 PersonFromPorlock Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:48:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259752 Magistra: <i>Because obviously a school that celebrates knowing more than one language....</i> If your native language is Urdu, and I greet you in Urdu, how am I helping you to know more than one language? The point can be overblown, but the dangers of accommodation leading to ghettoization aren't nonexistent. Magistra:

Because obviously a school that celebrates knowing more than one language….

If your native language is Urdu, and I greet you in Urdu, how am I helping you to know more than one language? The point can be overblown, but the dangers of accommodation leading to ghettoization aren’t nonexistent.

]]> By: john b http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259751 john b Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:16:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259751 "That all three parties support Turkey joining the EU indicates a failure of democracy." This is a feature of representative democracy, not a bug. See also: abolition of the death penalty. “That all three parties support Turkey joining the EU indicates a failure of democracy.”

This is a feature of representative democracy, not a bug. See also: abolition of the death penalty.

]]> By: Chris http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259740 Chris Sat, 29 Nov 2008 04:19:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259740 <blockquote>Are you arguing that the white underclass in the UK should not be considered a distinct group because they are white?</blockquote> I understood him to be saying (or implying) that the attempt to divide the white working class from the nonwhite working class was intended to, and did, have the effect of reducing the political power of the working class compared to what it would have if it were united. And that therefore the white working class was being encouraged to shoot itself in the foot by demonizing, rather than allying with, the nonwhite working class. @Maynard Handley - You seem to be leaving out France. Is that intentional, and if so, why?
Are you arguing that the white underclass in the UK should not be considered a distinct group because they are white?

I understood him to be saying (or implying) that the attempt to divide the white working class from the nonwhite working class was intended to, and did, have the effect of reducing the political power of the working class compared to what it would have if it were united. And that therefore the white working class was being encouraged to shoot itself in the foot by demonizing, rather than allying with, the nonwhite working class.

@Maynard Handley – You seem to be leaving out France. Is that intentional, and if so, why?

]]> By: Adam http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259729 Adam Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:40:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259729 I don't understand. Are you arguing that the white underclass in the UK should not be considered a distinct group because they are white? If they consider themselves a distinct group, with common interests and goals, then who are you to veto that? Also - are you hypothesizing that the drive to create a "white working class" is result of a collapse in the market for irish community outreach? Because you've got some unusual friends making that type of argument. Just google "grievance industry". And BTW - the claim that all three political parties support Turkey entering the EU is disingenuous. The most recent poll I could find, a Bloomberg poll from 2007, said only 27% of UK citizens thought Turkey joining the EU would be a good thing. That all three parties support Turkey joining the EU indicates a failure of democracy. But then, I remember the posts following the Irish referendum. Such failures are often lauded around here. I don’t understand. Are you arguing that the white underclass in the UK should not be considered a distinct group because they are white? If they consider themselves a distinct group, with common interests and goals, then who are you to veto that?

Also – are you hypothesizing that the drive to create a “white working class” is result of a collapse in the market for irish community outreach? Because you’ve got some unusual friends making that type of argument. Just google “grievance industry”.

And BTW - the claim that all three political parties support Turkey entering the EU is disingenuous. The most recent poll I could find, a Bloomberg poll from 2007, said only 27% of UK citizens thought Turkey joining the EU would be a good thing. That all three parties support Turkey joining the EU indicates a failure of democracy.

But then, I remember the posts following the Irish referendum. Such failures are often lauded around here.

]]> By: Daniel http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259724 Daniel Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:58:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259724 Dan Simon: if you're looking for your comment, it's been deleted. What really offends me is that you'd actually tried to use the fact that you're banned from my threads (and indeed, specifically that you're banned from my threads because of persistent and frivolous accusations of anti-Semitism) as a debating point in other threads. So you must have been doing it on purpose. You're banned, get it? Dan Simon: if you’re looking for your comment, it’s been deleted. What really offends me is that you’d actually tried to use the fact that you’re banned from my threads (and indeed, specifically that you’re banned from my threads because of persistent and frivolous accusations of anti-Semitism) as a debating point in other threads. So you must have been doing it on purpose. You’re banned, get it?

]]> By: Maynard Handley http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259723 Maynard Handley Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:52:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259723 "Trying to split up the working class into little interest groups and deal with them by piecemeal pandering and “addressing very real concerns” is a game that’s been going on for roughly as long as the working class itself, and has always been a bad idea." Well of course the easiest way to win an argument is to simply assert that you are correct... Here in California, there are a not insubstantial number of people who define themselves substantially more by their sexual orientation than by how they earn their living; and there are a not insubstantial number of people who want to deny them various aspects of a comfortable life for exactly the same reason. In this same country a large part of the dynamics of the presidential race were about gender and race (and to some extent religion). Or, to put it another way, how many REAL class wars have their been? Russia, China, Cambodia --- that's pretty much it. On the other hand, there've been a heck of a lot of wars based on cultural issues. You, as an individual, may think that class attributes are the single most important aspect of your life. You may even believe it would be rational (in some sense) for everyone in your class to forget all their other identities and hold onto nothing but the class. But don't get so deluded by your beliefs as to assume that everyone else feels the same way. Across the vast bulk of the earth, both now and at most times in the past, it has been other aspects of identity that have been most salient. Isn't claiming that these people don't know what is truly important to them basically the same mindset that you would sneer at were it uttered by an American? “Trying to split up the working class into little interest groups and deal with them by piecemeal pandering and “addressing very real concerns” is a game that’s been going on for roughly as long as the working class itself, and has always been a bad idea.”

Well of course the easiest way to win an argument is to simply assert that you are correct…

Here in California, there are a not insubstantial number of people who define themselves substantially more by their sexual orientation than by how they earn their living; and there are a not insubstantial number of people who want to deny them various aspects of a comfortable life for exactly the same reason.
In this same country a large part of the dynamics of the presidential race were about gender and race (and to some extent religion).

Or, to put it another way, how many REAL class wars have their been? Russia, China, Cambodia—- that’s pretty much it. On the other hand, there’ve been a heck of a lot of wars based on cultural issues.

You, as an individual, may think that class attributes are the single most important aspect of your life. You may even believe it would be rational (in some sense) for everyone in your class to forget all their other identities and hold onto nothing but the class. But don’t get so deluded by your beliefs as to assume that everyone else feels the same way. Across the vast bulk of the earth, both now and at most times in the past, it has been other aspects of identity that have been most salient. Isn’t claiming that these people don’t know what is truly important to them basically the same mindset that you would sneer at were it uttered by an American?

]]> By: novakant http://crookedtimber.org/2008/11/28/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-london-irish-social-services-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-259720 novakant Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:44:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8647#comment-259720 It doesn't matter where she lives, she's a rich liberal and Labour MP for Hampstead and Highgate. It doesn’t matter where she lives, she’s a rich liberal and Labour MP for Hampstead and Highgate.

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