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	<title>Comments on: Sunday Joni Mitchell Blogging</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Grand Moff Texan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260703</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Moff Texan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260703</guid>
		<description>Roy Belmont is correct about me, assuming that he is correct about the rest of the universe. 
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roy Belmont is correct about me, assuming that he is correct about the rest of the universe.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260702</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260702</guid>
		<description>Can you attach a slide to the hand?  The pedal steel guitar needs more attention from creative people.  They&#039;re wonderful instruments and very satisfying to just noodle with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Can you attach a slide to the hand?  The pedal steel guitar needs more attention from creative people.  They&#8217;re wonderful instruments and very satisfying to just noodle with.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260701</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260701</guid>
		<description>Alas, I have a crippled hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alas, I have a crippled hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260697</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260697</guid>
		<description>You should pick up a guitar.  It&#039;s not exceedingly hard to play like the Nuge, and it follows that it&#039;s not that hard to be better and more interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You should pick up a guitar.  It&#8217;s not exceedingly hard to play like the Nuge, and it follows that it&#8217;s not that hard to be better and more interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260695</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260695</guid>
		<description>See my note on Ted Nugent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>See my note on Ted Nugent.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260693</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260693</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Another way to put it is that most rock/folk guitarists only play chords that they’ve learned, often a very limited range of them, whereas I think that autodidacts play chords that she’d found.&lt;/blockquote&gt; I agree - anecdotal evidence only! - with the first two clauses, but I think &quot;autodidact&quot; applies to a healthy majority of those boring people as well.  That she taught herself did not make her playing unique, her playing is unique because she is an artist in a sea of craftsmen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Another way to put it is that most rock/folk guitarists only play chords that they&#8217;ve learned, often a very limited range of them, whereas I think that autodidacts play chords that she&#8217;d found.</blockquote> I agree &#8211; anecdotal evidence only! &#8211; with the first two clauses, but I think &#8220;autodidact&#8221; applies to a healthy majority of those boring people as well.  That she taught herself did not make her playing unique, her playing is unique because she is an artist in a sea of craftsmen.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260690</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260690</guid>
		<description>I recently read that Coltrane diligently practiced scales from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Slonimsky&#039;s book&lt;/a&gt;.

Bartok lived in Manhattan during the end of WWII. His health wasn&#039;t good and he had no money, but I really wish he had made it up to Minton&#039;s to hear the bebop. Of all the classical composers, I think that he&#039;s the one who would have learned the most there,  and the beboppers were already listening to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I recently read that Coltrane diligently practiced scales from <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X" rel="nofollow">Slonimsky&#8217;s book</a>.</p>

	<p>Bartok lived in Manhattan during the end of <span class="caps">WWII</span>. His health wasn&#8217;t good and he had no money, but I really wish he had made it up to Minton&#8217;s to hear the bebop. Of all the classical composers, I think that he&#8217;s the one who would have learned the most there,  and the beboppers were already listening to him.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260688</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260688</guid>
		<description>Another way to put it is that most rock/folk guitarists only play chords that they&#039;ve learned, often a very limited range of them, whereas I think that autodidacts play chords that she&#039;d found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another way to put it is that most rock/folk guitarists only play chords that they&#8217;ve learned, often a very limited range of them, whereas I think that autodidacts play chords that she&#8217;d found.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260686</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260686</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;As for not knowing the names of the chords, which she claimed, maybe she just didn&#039;t understand the specific terminology of the jazz musicians she was working with.&lt;/blockquote&gt; It&#039;s really really hard not to know the names of common chords and play with or talk to other people - even those who are fairly illiterate musically - about what you&#039;re doing.  People know what an E is as both a string and a chord.  On the other hand Mitchell may have been talking about uncommon chords with diminished this and augmented that - lots of guitarists play those without knowing what they&#039;re called, myself included.

In that kooky Miles Davis autobiography Davis gives credit to Jimi Hendrix for untutored modal playing; Wikipedia gives us 

&lt;blockquote&gt;[Hendrix] learned by practicing almost constantly, watching others play, through tips from more experienced players, and by listening to records. In the summer of 1959, his father bought Hendrix a white Supro Ozark, his first electric guitar, but there was no available amplifier. That same year his only failing grade in school was an F in music class.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>As for not knowing the names of the chords, which she claimed, maybe she just didn&#8217;t understand the specific terminology of the jazz musicians she was working with.</blockquote> It&#8217;s really really hard not to know the names of common chords and play with or talk to other people &#8211; even those who are fairly illiterate musically &#8211; about what you&#8217;re doing.  People know what an E is as both a string and a chord.  On the other hand Mitchell may have been talking about uncommon chords with diminished this and augmented that &#8211; lots of guitarists play those without knowing what they&#8217;re called, myself included.</p>

	<p>In that kooky Miles Davis autobiography Davis gives credit to Jimi Hendrix for untutored modal playing; Wikipedia gives us</p>

	<p><blockquote>[Hendrix] learned by practicing almost constantly, watching others play, through tips from more experienced players, and by listening to records. In the summer of 1959, his father bought Hendrix a white Supro Ozark, his first electric guitar, but there was no available amplifier. That same year his only failing grade in school was an F in music class.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260685</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260685</guid>
		<description>To elaborate further, I wasn&#039;t making a general statement about classical, folk, autodidacts and alternate tunings. I was making a specific statement or conjecture about Joni Mitchell based in part on her unique guitar style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To elaborate further, I wasn&#8217;t making a general statement about classical, folk, autodidacts and alternate tunings. I was making a specific statement or conjecture about Joni Mitchell based in part on her unique guitar style.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260684</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260684</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There is no relationship between alternate tunings and folk or being an autodidact. Classical guitarists use a range of alternate tunings: for instance, lute tuning. Look everyone has blind spots. Its fine not to get some style of music or particular performer. But have a little humility, and don’t hold your blind spot up as ineffable wisdom.&lt;/i&gt;

You have a pleasant, humble way of expressing yourself.

In the interview I read Mitchell more or less claimed to be an autodidact. As for not knowing the names of the chords, which she claimed, maybe she just didn&#039;t understand the specific terminology of the jazz musicians she was working with.  Or maybe she really was atheoretical. 

As for Mitchell herself, her esthetique, style, and persona don&#039;t appeal to me much and I only like a few songs here and there,  but I do recognize that she&#039;s musically more interesting and more inventive than any other American or British &quot;folk&quot; musician I&#039;ve ever heard (except maybe for Richard Thompson, if you want to call him folk.)  

As for autodidacts, I&#039;m strongly pro-autodidact. It really is true that Musorgsky and Satie were technically deficient, and it also really is true that they were the two first European classical musicians to escape from the Wagnerian / German morass which was their express intention. 
There were dozens of composers among Musorgsky&#039;s Russian contemporaries, most of them better trained than he was. Only Tchaikovsky is listened to today more than Musorgsky is, and Musorgsky has been the more influential of the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>There is no relationship between alternate tunings and folk or being an autodidact. Classical guitarists use a range of alternate tunings: for instance, lute tuning. Look everyone has blind spots. Its fine not to get some style of music or particular performer. But have a little humility, and don&#8217;t hold your blind spot up as ineffable wisdom.</i></p>

	<p>You have a pleasant, humble way of expressing yourself.</p>

	<p>In the interview I read Mitchell more or less claimed to be an autodidact. As for not knowing the names of the chords, which she claimed, maybe she just didn&#8217;t understand the specific terminology of the jazz musicians she was working with.  Or maybe she really was atheoretical.</p>

	<p>As for Mitchell herself, her esthetique, style, and persona don&#8217;t appeal to me much and I only like a few songs here and there,  but I do recognize that she&#8217;s musically more interesting and more inventive than any other American or British &#8220;folk&#8221; musician I&#8217;ve ever heard (except maybe for Richard Thompson, if you want to call him folk.)</p>

	<p>As for autodidacts, I&#8217;m strongly pro-autodidact. It really is true that Musorgsky and Satie were technically deficient, and it also really is true that they were the two first European classical musicians to escape from the Wagnerian / German morass which was their express intention.<br />
There were dozens of composers among Musorgsky&#8217;s Russian contemporaries, most of them better trained than he was. Only Tchaikovsky is listened to today more than Musorgsky is, and Musorgsky has been the more influential of the two.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McGrattan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260680</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McGrattan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260680</guid>
		<description>The best arrangements of the Schubert lieder for guitar are by ... Mertz.

I think some of Regondi&#039;s guitar compositions -- his Introduction and Caprice, op. 23 -- and some of Mertz [the Bardenklange are very nice miniatures and his arrangements of Schubert and some 19th c. opera arias are very good] stand up well in comparison to similar piano repertoire of the time. It&#039;s salon music, but it&#039;s good salon music. Some of Napoleon Coste&#039;s from the same period is also good.

Does it bear comparison with Beethoven? Well, clearly not. 

The problem with the mid-19th century romantic repertoire for the guitar is that the stuff that finds its way into publication in anthologies and albums of sheet music is not their best stuff. The concert pieces are just too difficult for guitar players who aren&#039;t of a really high standard. So it&#039;s not especially well known and the pieces that are best known by those composers are really just etudes [like Coste&#039;s and some of Legnani&#039;s] or miniatures [like some by Mertz]. 

Where is this huge repertoire of renaissance stuff by composers who are of the &#039;first-rank&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The best arrangements of the Schubert lieder for guitar are by &#8230; Mertz.</p>

	<p>I think some of Regondi&#8217;s guitar compositions&#8212;his Introduction and Caprice, op. 23&#8212;and some of Mertz [the Bardenklange are very nice miniatures and his arrangements of Schubert and some 19th c. opera arias are very good] stand up well in comparison to similar piano repertoire of the time. It&#8217;s salon music, but it&#8217;s good salon music. Some of Napoleon Coste&#8217;s from the same period is also good.</p>

	<p>Does it bear comparison with Beethoven? Well, clearly not.</p>

	<p>The problem with the mid-19th century romantic repertoire for the guitar is that the stuff that finds its way into publication in anthologies and albums of sheet music is not their best stuff. The concert pieces are just too difficult for guitar players who aren&#8217;t of a really high standard. So it&#8217;s not especially well known and the pieces that are best known by those composers are really just etudes [like Coste&#8217;s and some of Legnani&#8217;s] or miniatures [like some by Mertz].</p>

	<p>Where is this huge repertoire of renaissance stuff by composers who are of the &#8216;first-rank&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hurka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260679</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hurka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260679</guid>
		<description>kid bitzer: fair enough about the melody of Song for Sharon, which isn&#039;t catchy or hummable. But has anyone noted that the progression in Joni&#039;s lyric-writing is like that in Shakespeare? She starts with songs where a single image runs through the song, e.g. Both Sides Now (compare the long set speeches in early Shakespeare). But later, e.g. on Hejira, she&#039;s throwing out lots of little images one after another (as in late Shakespeare, e.g. Antony and Cleopatra). The earlier style with the extended images is kind of innocent; the later, tougher style is more mature. Anyway, what a lyricist!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>kid bitzer: fair enough about the melody of Song for Sharon, which isn&#8217;t catchy or hummable. But has anyone noted that the progression in Joni&#8217;s lyric-writing is like that in Shakespeare? She starts with songs where a single image runs through the song, e.g. Both Sides Now (compare the long set speeches in early Shakespeare). But later, e.g. on Hejira, she&#8217;s throwing out lots of little images one after another (as in late Shakespeare, e.g. Antony and Cleopatra). The earlier style with the extended images is kind of innocent; the later, tougher style is more mature. Anyway, what a lyricist!</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260678</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260678</guid>
		<description>You are right, I have never listened to Mertz. I have played through some, and I thought that was enough. Perhaps there is some gems in his work that I have missed, but I remain sceptical. The truth is there is almost nothing in the entire repertoire that would be a loss to the world of music apart from the renaissance: nothing really significant. The great composers never wrote for guitar (except for some Lieder by Schubert, which I believe exist in guitar as well as piano accompaniment versions).  Lemuel&#039;s example is a good one: it is indeed one of the high points of the repertoire. But it is very far from an essential piece of music. Whatever you think of Aguado or Guiliani, you can&#039;t think there are first-rank composers... can you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You are right, I have never listened to Mertz. I have played through some, and I thought that was enough. Perhaps there is some gems in his work that I have missed, but I remain sceptical. The truth is there is almost nothing in the entire repertoire that would be a loss to the world of music apart from the renaissance: nothing really significant. The great composers never wrote for guitar (except for some Lieder by Schubert, which I believe exist in guitar as well as piano accompaniment versions).  Lemuel&#8217;s example is a good one: it is indeed one of the high points of the repertoire. But it is very far from an essential piece of music. Whatever you think of Aguado or Guiliani, you can&#8217;t think there are first-rank composers&#8230; can you?</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/07/sunday-joni-mitchell-blogging/comment-page-2/#comment-260676</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8728#comment-260676</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I can’t think of anything really good from the first half of the 2oth C. &lt;/i&gt;

What about de Falla&#039;s &quot;Homenaje pour le Tombeau de Debussy&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I can&#8217;t think of anything really good from the first half of the 2oth C. </i></p>

	<p>What about de Falla&#8217;s &#8220;Homenaje pour le Tombeau de Debussy&#8221;?</p>
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