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	<title>Comments on: Outliers</title>
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	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Barbar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261219</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261219</guid>
		<description>Dan Simon makes a very good point (did I just say that) -- extraordinarily successful people may make for interesting book material, but are probably useless in terms of providing understanding of the types of success achievable to 99.9% of the population.

I&#039;m a sucker for pop-academic books, but &quot;Blink&quot; was one of the most disappointing books I&#039;ve ever looked at.  So... sometimes gut reactions are on target, sometimes they&#039;re not, sometimes years of experience help, sometimes not, and the writer has absolutely no ideas about how to arrive at a general conclusion on this subject... why is this book getting such rave reviews?  There are plenty of reasons for a Gladwell backlash that have absolutely nothing to do with politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan Simon makes a very good point (did I just say that)&#8212;extraordinarily successful people may make for interesting book material, but are probably useless in terms of providing understanding of the types of success achievable to 99.9% of the population.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m a sucker for pop-academic books, but &#8220;Blink&#8221; was one of the most disappointing books I&#8217;ve ever looked at.  So&#8230; sometimes gut reactions are on target, sometimes they&#8217;re not, sometimes years of experience help, sometimes not, and the writer has absolutely no ideas about how to arrive at a general conclusion on this subject&#8230; why is this book getting such rave reviews?  There are plenty of reasons for a Gladwell backlash that have absolutely nothing to do with politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261207</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261207</guid>
		<description>Good point, Chris.  And on a related note, Malcolm Gladwell has been known to assert that condescension towards academics is quite unjustified, since the very best of them aren&#039;t mere navel-gazing obscurantists at all, but in fact provide very useful, reliable information at times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Good point, Chris.  And on a related note, Malcolm Gladwell has been known to assert that condescension towards academics is quite unjustified, since the very best of them aren&#8217;t mere navel-gazing obscurantists at all, but in fact provide very useful, reliable information at times.</p>
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		<title>By: belle le triste</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261206</link>
		<dc:creator>belle le triste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261206</guid>
		<description>i think i read about the &quot;10,000 hour&quot; rule first in something written about &lt;a href=&quot;http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/399596/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;richard sennett&lt;/a&gt; -- i believe he talks about it in &quot;the craftsman&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>i think i read about the &#8220;10,000 hour&#8221; rule first in something written about <a href="http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/399596/" rel="nofollow">richard sennett</a>&#8212;i believe he talks about it in &#8220;the craftsman&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261202</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261202</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the book, only some extracts and reviews, but I would be wary of attributing all the negativity directed Gladwell&#039;s way to ivory tower snobbery and reactionary politics (although the latter clearly explains some of the bad reviews, eg. in the &lt;i&gt;New York Times&lt;/i&gt;.) The fact is that his argument, such as it is, sounds pretty confused, a watery hodgepodge of Edison&#039;s apercu about genius being &#039;99% perspiration&#039; and the common wisdom that &#039;it ain&#039;t what you know, it&#039;s who you knew&#039;. The first of these doesn&#039;t seem to have egalitarian implications at all, if anything the attribution of &#039;success&#039; to &#039;hard work&#039; must be one of the most commonly relied-upon strategies for legitimising inequality; and certainly seems to be a popular one among liberal political philosophers. As for the second, it&#039;s hard for me to believe that anyone, even in America, would seriously claim that &#039;success&#039; in corporate law, say, is determined by innate talent. And from what you say above Gladwell seems concerned to try to trace the success or failure of individuals to allegedly functional aspects of their cultural background; it&#039;s not clear to me that this line of thought leads in a very egalitarian or edifying direction.

More generally, I think that Gladwell&#039;s vague idea that &#039;where you come from matters&#039; is sufficiently well-accepted by most people right now that it is unlikely to change their political views (this advertising campaign by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/03/advertising.marketingandpr&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Orange&lt;/a&gt; perhaps shows how innocuous it is.) Anyone who has ever witnessed an Oxford alumni event or public school Old Boys evening knows that acknowledging that upbringing and education &#039;made me the man I am today&#039; is quite compatible a sense of entitlement a mile wide and the most vicious right-wing politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I haven&#8217;t read the book, only some extracts and reviews, but I would be wary of attributing all the negativity directed Gladwell&#8217;s way to ivory tower snobbery and reactionary politics (although the latter clearly explains some of the bad reviews, eg. in the <i>New York Times</i>.) The fact is that his argument, such as it is, sounds pretty confused, a watery hodgepodge of Edison&#8217;s apercu about genius being &#8216;99% perspiration&#8217; and the common wisdom that &#8216;it ain&#8217;t what you know, it&#8217;s who you knew&#8217;. The first of these doesn&#8217;t seem to have egalitarian implications at all, if anything the attribution of &#8216;success&#8217; to &#8216;hard work&#8217; must be one of the most commonly relied-upon strategies for legitimising inequality; and certainly seems to be a popular one among liberal political philosophers. As for the second, it&#8217;s hard for me to believe that anyone, even in America, would seriously claim that &#8216;success&#8217; in corporate law, say, is determined by innate talent. And from what you say above Gladwell seems concerned to try to trace the success or failure of individuals to allegedly functional aspects of their cultural background; it&#8217;s not clear to me that this line of thought leads in a very egalitarian or edifying direction.</p>

	<p>More generally, I think that Gladwell&#8217;s vague idea that &#8216;where you come from matters&#8217; is sufficiently well-accepted by most people right now that it is unlikely to change their political views (this advertising campaign by <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/03/advertising.marketingandpr" rel="nofollow">Orange</a> perhaps shows how innocuous it is.) Anyone who has ever witnessed an Oxford alumni event or public school Old Boys evening knows that acknowledging that upbringing and education &#8216;made me the man I am today&#8217; is quite compatible a sense of entitlement a mile wide and the most vicious right-wing politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261191</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261191</guid>
		<description>Harry, I&#039;m reminded of what Max Weber has to say about journalists (and academics&#039; snotty attitude towards them) in _Politics as a Vocation_.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry, I&#8217;m reminded of what Max Weber has to say about journalists (and academics&#8217; snotty attitude towards them) in <em>Politics as a Vocation</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261186</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261186</guid>
		<description>To save typing, I&#039;ll just link to my &lt;a href=&quot;http://icouldbewrong.blogspot.com/2008/12/ive-already-noted-that-extraordinarily.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;explanation&lt;/a&gt; of why the thesis of this book is silly.  Extremely short precis:  &quot;outliers&quot; are by definition extremely atypical, and therefore have little to tell us about the kinds of success and failure that are  relevant to the vast majority of the population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To save typing, I&#8217;ll just link to my <a href="http://icouldbewrong.blogspot.com/2008/12/ive-already-noted-that-extraordinarily.html" rel="nofollow">explanation</a> of why the thesis of this book is silly.  Extremely short precis:  &#8220;outliers&#8221; are by definition extremely atypical, and therefore have little to tell us about the kinds of success and failure that are  relevant to the vast majority of the population.</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261174</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261174</guid>
		<description>Harry,
I also wish more academics who know the material would write books like Gladwell&#039;s.  One problem I have with his writing is that he either has the ability of a polymath genius or is very skilled at faking that ability -- in other words, is a journalist.  If he&#039;s a genius, I have to wonder whether he&#039;s twisting the research results around to fit his own purposes; if he&#039;s &quot;only&quot; a journalist, I have to wonder whether the implications I think I see result from misconceptions.  I think someone who really knew the subject matter would be better at ensuring a reader gets the &lt;i&gt;main&lt;/i&gt; point.  There&#039;s a case to be made that the reader ought to be able to ignore whatever is irrelevant, but I tend not to like that.

I skimmed &lt;i&gt;The Tipping Point&lt;/i&gt;, then decided to read it more slowly -- because I didn&#039;t think I was going to feel like going back over it after I&#039;d finished, if I just read it straight through once -- and didn&#039;t get much past the first chapter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry,<br />
I also wish more academics who know the material would write books like Gladwell&#8217;s.  One problem I have with his writing is that he either has the ability of a polymath genius or is very skilled at faking that ability&#8212;in other words, is a journalist.  If he&#8217;s a genius, I have to wonder whether he&#8217;s twisting the research results around to fit his own purposes; if he&#8217;s &#8220;only&#8221; a journalist, I have to wonder whether the implications I think I see result from misconceptions.  I think someone who really knew the subject matter would be better at ensuring a reader gets the <i>main</i> point.  There&#8217;s a case to be made that the reader ought to be able to ignore whatever is irrelevant, but I tend not to like that.</p>

	<p>I skimmed <i>The Tipping Point</i>, then decided to read it more slowly&#8212;because I didn&#8217;t think I was going to feel like going back over it after I&#8217;d finished, if I just read it straight through once&#8212;and didn&#8217;t get much past the first chapter.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261157</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261157</guid>
		<description>I have a strong incentive _not_ to correct this common error, for all the obvious reasons. Also, for the record, Brooks does (or at least used to) read CT sometimes ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have a strong incentive <em>not</em> to correct this common error, for all the obvious reasons. Also, for the record, Brooks does (or at least used to) read CT sometimes &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261152</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261152</guid>
		<description>PS - bianca, you are in very good company; Henry and I get confused so frequently that we often don&#039;t even bother pointing it out. I don&#039;t know why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">PS </span>- bianca, you are in very good company; Henry and I get confused so frequently that we often don&#8217;t even bother pointing it out. I don&#8217;t know why.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261151</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261151</guid>
		<description>Zamfir -- maybe that&#039;s right about chairing meetings (I&#039;ve encountered 2 genius chairs of meetings, one of whom may indeed have had several thousands of hours of practice, but the other of whom simply couldn&#039;t have had by the time I watched him). 

Jonny; the appeal is a winning writing style with a pugnacious and unfussy way of making the points he is wanting to make. I don&#039;t know anyone who reads him uncritically (but then I wouldn&#039;t, would I?), and if read critically I don&#039;t see the problem pedagogically. I do use Lareau, who is wonderful, obviously, but what his first couple of chapters add are the stories behind real people who are, actually, recognised by the students as successful people and about whom they do have preconceptions that are usefully shaken. Well, I say that, but its only conjecture -- I&#039;ll find out by using it.

I wish more academics who really produce and have full command of ideas could and would write a bit more like Gladwell; not in journal articles but in books. Few do (Lareau, for example, doesn&#039;t, even though one of the many virtues of Unequal Childhoods is that she eschews jargon and frequent references to theoretical frameworks while allowing them to shape the whole story in a sophisticated way).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Zamfir&#8212;maybe that&#8217;s right about chairing meetings (I&#8217;ve encountered 2 genius chairs of meetings, one of whom may indeed have had several thousands of hours of practice, but the other of whom simply couldn&#8217;t have had by the time I watched him).</p>

	<p>Jonny; the appeal is a winning writing style with a pugnacious and unfussy way of making the points he is wanting to make. I don&#8217;t know anyone who reads him uncritically (but then I wouldn&#8217;t, would I?), and if read critically I don&#8217;t see the problem pedagogically. I do use Lareau, who is wonderful, obviously, but what his first couple of chapters add are the stories behind real people who are, actually, recognised by the students as successful people and about whom they do have preconceptions that are usefully shaken. Well, I say that, but its only conjecture&#8212;I&#8217;ll find out by using it.</p>

	<p>I wish more academics who really produce and have full command of ideas could and would write a bit more like Gladwell; not in journal articles but in books. Few do (Lareau, for example, doesn&#8217;t, even though one of the many virtues of Unequal Childhoods is that she eschews jargon and frequent references to theoretical frameworks while allowing them to shape the whole story in a sophisticated way).</p>
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		<title>By: Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261130</link>
		<dc:creator>Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261130</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The 10,000 hour rule (which has a lot of plausibility with respect to some activities, but considerably less with respect to others—or maybe no-one ever gets to be a Beatles-quality chair of meetings)&lt;/i&gt;

I think the point of the 10000 hour rule is that you have to be trying to improve yourself, not just go along. And 10,000 hours is a lot. I suspect that people who are chair of a meeting for several hours everday for 15 years, and who are actively trying to improve their skill all that time, will in fact be very, very good chairmen at the end.

Bu another problem is of course that you do not have to note good chairmen. You go to meeting, and you come out quick thinking &quot;hey, everything went very smooth this time&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The 10,000 hour rule (which has a lot of plausibility with respect to some activities, but considerably less with respect to others&#8212;or maybe no-one ever gets to be a Beatles-quality chair of meetings)</i></p>

	<p>I think the point of the 10000 hour rule is that you have to be trying to improve yourself, not just go along. And 10,000 hours is a lot. I suspect that people who are chair of a meeting for several hours everday for 15 years, and who are actively trying to improve their skill all that time, will in fact be very, very good chairmen at the end.</p>

	<p>Bu another problem is of course that you do not have to note good chairmen. You go to meeting, and you come out quick thinking &#8220;hey, everything went very smooth this time&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261098</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261098</guid>
		<description>Oops again.  You might ask what I thought about the comment headed &quot;harry b&quot; just before mine.  You would be right to ask.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops again.  You might ask what I thought about the comment headed &#8220;harry b&#8221; just before mine.  You would be right to ask.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonny R</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261060</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonny R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261060</guid>
		<description>I agree a great deal with what Thom Dowting said and I&#039;ll borrow from this nice The Register post &#039;The Dumb Dumb World of Malcolm Gladwell&#039;. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/30/malcolm_gladwell_no/

So, I do wonder what his appeal is? Personally, as an academic who works within &#039;political philosophy&#039; I don&#039;t  see how Gladwell is useful as a guide to the kind of theoretical, structure / agency questions being asked here. I mean, OK he&#039;s a guide if you don&#039;t get a bit of it at the basic level, but the stuff he writes seems so superficial as to regress any understanding of the subject. Lareau is a much a better example of this kind of argument, so why not stick with that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree a great deal with what Thom Dowting said and I&#8217;ll borrow from this nice The Register post &#8216;The Dumb Dumb World of Malcolm Gladwell&#8217;. <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/30/malcolm_gladwell_no/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/30/malcolm_gladwell_no/</a></p>

	<p>So, I do wonder what his appeal is? Personally, as an academic who works within &#8216;political philosophy&#8217; I don&#8217;t  see how Gladwell is useful as a guide to the kind of theoretical, structure / agency questions being asked here. I mean, OK he&#8217;s a guide if you don&#8217;t get a bit of it at the basic level, but the stuff he writes seems so superficial as to regress any understanding of the subject. Lareau is a much a better example of this kind of argument, so why not stick with that?</p>
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		<title>By: Thom Dowting</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261052</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Dowting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261052</guid>
		<description>Found it:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/11/outliers.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tyler Cowen at Marginal Revolution on Outliers:&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The book is best read as a supplement to Ludwig Lachmann&#039;s &#039;Capital and its Structure.&#039;  The main enduring insight of both Lachmann and Gladwell is simply how much we live in a world of complementarity rather than substitutability.

Nowhere in the book does the name Dean Keith Simonton appear nor does the phrase &#039;multiplicative model of human success.&#039;  A lot of the content here has already been done with more rigor and empirical support and also in readable form I might add.  Everyone should read Simonton, noting that his hypotheses fare better in the arts than in politics.

If you ask too much from Outliers it will fall apart.  It is too easy to find contingency in the world and Gladwell doesn&#039;t begin to look for a theory of which contingencies are interesting or not.  For instance arguably Ludwig van Beethoven would not have been a great composer if:...

It&#039;s still a good book and a fun book. You can order it here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Found it:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/11/outliers.html" rel="nofollow">Tyler Cowen at Marginal Revolution on Outliers:</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>The book is best read as a supplement to Ludwig Lachmann&#8217;s &#8216;Capital and its Structure.&#8217;  The main enduring insight of both Lachmann and Gladwell is simply how much we live in a world of complementarity rather than substitutability.</blockquote></p>

	<p>Nowhere in the book does the name Dean Keith Simonton appear nor does the phrase &#8216;multiplicative model of human success.&#8217;  A lot of the content here has already been done with more rigor and empirical support and also in readable form I might add.  Everyone should read Simonton, noting that his hypotheses fare better in the arts than in politics.</p>

	<p>If you ask too much from Outliers it will fall apart.  It is too easy to find contingency in the world and Gladwell doesn&#8217;t begin to look for a theory of which contingencies are interesting or not.  For instance arguably Ludwig van Beethoven would not have been a great composer if:&#8230;</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s still a good book and a fun book. You can order it here.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/15/outliers-2/comment-page-1/#comment-261039</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8788#comment-261039</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think that too bianca (though I am Brighouse, not Farrell....). What adds to the likelihood is that I have lots of interests in common with Brooks (and like him more than I think I should), so there is bound to be overlap. Traffic, which is a better book, got much less coverage, so I&#039;lkl focus on that next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, I think that too bianca (though I am Brighouse, not Farrell&#8230;.). What adds to the likelihood is that I have lots of interests in common with Brooks (and like him more than I think I should), so there is bound to be overlap. Traffic, which is a better book, got much less coverage, so I&#8217;lkl focus on that next.</p>
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