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	<title>Comments on: Ghostwritten</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Bill Gardner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261074</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261074</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I don’t think anyone follows that rule. I’d never heard of any rule like that. And I work in this field.&lt;/em&gt;

The Instructions for Authors at &lt;a href=&quot;http://jama.ama-assn.org/misc/authors.dtl&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;JAMA&lt;/a&gt; includes a form that that must be signed by authors that includes the following:

&quot;2. (check at least 1 of 2 below)
[ ] drafting of the manuscript
[ ] critical revision of the manuscript for important intellectual content&quot;

This is, clearly, a restatement of the ICMJE rule.

Similarly, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/347/1/55&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NEJM&lt;/a&gt;&#039;s current policy statement about who should be an author: &quot;The specific requirements for authorship promulgated by the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors (ICMJE), which have been adopted by many biomedical journals, are posted on its Web site at http://www.icmje.org... As in the past, our policy is that all persons listed as authors must meet the ICMJE requirements for authorship. &quot;

&lt;em&gt;There’s never even a clue as to who actually wrote the paper, and that’s considered to be more or less irrelevant.&lt;/em&gt;

That is the problem that this policy is specifically designed to address.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>I don&#8217;t think anyone follows that rule. I&#8217;d never heard of any rule like that. And I work in this field.</em></p>

	<p>The Instructions for Authors at <a href="http://jama.ama-assn.org/misc/authors.dtl" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">JAMA</span></a> includes a form that that must be signed by authors that includes the following:</p>

	<p>&#8220;2. (check at least 1 of 2 below)<br />
[ ] drafting of the manuscript<br />
[ ] critical revision of the manuscript for important intellectual content&#8221;</p>

	<p>This is, clearly, a restatement of the <span class="caps">ICMJE</span> rule.</p>

	<p>Similarly, the <a href="http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/347/1/55" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">NEJM</span></a>&#8217;s current policy statement about who should be an author: &#8220;The specific requirements for authorship promulgated by the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors (ICMJE), which have been adopted by many biomedical journals, are posted on its Web site at <a href="http://www.icmje.org.." rel="nofollow">http://www.icmje.org..</a>. As in the past, our policy is that all persons listed as authors must meet the <span class="caps">ICMJE</span> requirements for authorship. &#8221;</p>

	<p><em>There&#8217;s never even a clue as to who actually wrote the paper, and that&#8217;s considered to be more or less irrelevant.</em></p>

	<p>That is the problem that this policy is specifically designed to address.</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261059</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261059</guid>
		<description>Oops, &quot;not being paid.&quot;

Very different meaning if you leave out random words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, &#8220;not being paid.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Very different meaning if you leave out random words.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261058</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261058</guid>
		<description>Oops, &quot;not being paid.&quot;

Very different meaning if you leave out random words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, &#8220;not being paid.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Very different meaning if you leave out random words.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261055</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261055</guid>
		<description>John,
The emphasis by the pharmaceutical company that the doctors were paid by the company is the reverse of the charge often heard that doctors’ opinions are tainted because they were paid.  The idea appears to be that because a contractual obligation requires a quid pro quo, consideration must have changed hands in both directions -- or perhaps that what they were paid to do must necessarily have been to write in support of the opinions of those by whom they were hired -- or perhaps, even, at the very edge of possibility, that to say “money was given” might just as well be to say “opinions were transferred.”
The emphasis by the Senator seems to be associated with the requirements under US law for filing a civil suit.  (I’m not a lawyer, so obviously you shouldn’t take my word as legal advice, but this information can after all be found in layperson’s books available at any public library.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John,<br />
The emphasis by the pharmaceutical company that the doctors were paid by the company is the reverse of the charge often heard that doctors&#8217; opinions are tainted because they were paid.  The idea appears to be that because a contractual obligation requires a quid pro quo, consideration must have changed hands in both directions&#8212;or perhaps that what they were paid to do must necessarily have been to write in support of the opinions of those by whom they were hired&#8212;or perhaps, even, at the very edge of possibility, that to say &#8220;money was given&#8221; might just as well be to say &#8220;opinions were transferred.&#8221;<br />
The emphasis by the Senator seems to be associated with the requirements under US law for filing a civil suit.  (I&#8217;m not a lawyer, so obviously you shouldn&#8217;t take my word as legal advice, but this information can after all be found in layperson&#8217;s books available at any public library.)</p>
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		<title>By: rm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261053</link>
		<dc:creator>rm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261053</guid>
		<description>We humanities scholars are such suckers and rubes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We humanities scholars are such suckers and rubes.</p>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261049</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261049</guid>
		<description>Cryptic Ned is right, unless perhaps &quot;revising it critically&quot; means someone sent you a draft via email and you didn&#039;t complain.  As noted, some journals want a breakdown of who did what work, but it just isn&#039;t plausible (or desirable) to have everyone involved in the actual writing.


&lt;i&gt;Two words. Graduate students.&lt;/i&gt;
In theory this would save a lot of time.  In practice, not so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cryptic Ned is right, unless perhaps &#8220;revising it critically&#8221; means someone sent you a draft via email and you didn&#8217;t complain.  As noted, some journals want a breakdown of who did what work, but it just isn&#8217;t plausible (or desirable) to have everyone involved in the actual writing.</p>


	<p><i>Two words. Graduate students.</i><br />
In theory this would save a lot of time.  In practice, not so much.</p>
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		<title>By: Cryptic Ned</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261041</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic Ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261041</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This was accepted practice in academic medicine a generation ago. Now, according to the Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals: Writing and Editing for Biomedical Publication of the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors, it is necessary, but not sufficient, that your contribution includes “drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content”. That is, some actual writing. &lt;/i&gt;

No, I don&#039;t think anyone follows that rule.  I&#039;d never heard of any rule like that.  And I work in this field.

If you contributed significantly to the research, you become an author.  Look at any article detailing the results of a clinical trial.  You&#039;ll probably see a dozen or two dozen authors, representing a dozen different institutions.  These are all the doctors who organized the trials at those institutions, plus a couple statisticians and experimental technicians.  There&#039;s never even a clue as to who actually wrote the paper, and that&#039;s considered to be more or less irrelevant.  &quot;Author&quot; represents who did the work.

Now, some journals require the submitters to detail which of the authors contributed what to the paper.  So it&#039;ll say &quot;JMM, HUY and DXX designed the experiments.  DXX, SOS and POS carried out the experiments.  BFF performed statistical analysis.  JMM and DXX wrote the manuscript.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>This was accepted practice in academic medicine a generation ago. Now, according to the Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals: Writing and Editing for Biomedical Publication of the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors, it is necessary, but not sufficient, that your contribution includes &#8220;drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content&#8221;. That is, some actual writing. </i></p>

	<p>No, I don&#8217;t think anyone follows that rule.  I&#8217;d never heard of any rule like that.  And I work in this field.</p>

	<p>If you contributed significantly to the research, you become an author.  Look at any article detailing the results of a clinical trial.  You&#8217;ll probably see a dozen or two dozen authors, representing a dozen different institutions.  These are all the doctors who organized the trials at those institutions, plus a couple statisticians and experimental technicians.  There&#8217;s never even a clue as to who actually wrote the paper, and that&#8217;s considered to be more or less irrelevant.  &#8220;Author&#8221; represents who did the work.</p>

	<p>Now, some journals require the submitters to detail which of the authors contributed what to the paper.  So it&#8217;ll say &#8220;JMM, <span class="caps">HUY</span> and <span class="caps">DXX</span> designed the experiments.  <span class="caps">DXX</span>, SOS and <span class="caps">POS</span> carried out the experiments.  <span class="caps">BFF</span> performed statistical analysis.  <span class="caps">JMM</span> and <span class="caps">DXX</span> wrote the manuscript.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261030</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261030</guid>
		<description>Next, we&#039;ll be reading about how lawyers  and ghostwriters for the firms suing Merck and Wyeth, and so forth, are responsible for the articles in the NYT and elsewhere.  And, down the line, that all articles we read as news are generated not by reporters but by interested parties who have contacted reporters with articles already written.  The whole publishing world is one giant Ponzi scheme.

Ghostwriting and guest authorship are all too common in academic publishing and, naturally, raise concern over the integrity of the underlying research.  However, undisclosed authorship, per se, is not the same as reporting of fraudulent data.   The suppression or ommission of negative results (as in the case of Vioxx) is a larger threat to the public than the practice of borrowing political support from the scientific and medical community to report true results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Next, we&#8217;ll be reading about how lawyers  and ghostwriters for the firms suing Merck and Wyeth, and so forth, are responsible for the articles in the <span class="caps">NYT</span> and elsewhere.  And, down the line, that all articles we read as news are generated not by reporters but by interested parties who have contacted reporters with articles already written.  The whole publishing world is one giant Ponzi scheme.</p>

	<p>Ghostwriting and guest authorship are all too common in academic publishing and, naturally, raise concern over the integrity of the underlying research.  However, undisclosed authorship, per se, is not the same as reporting of fraudulent data.   The suppression or ommission of negative results (as in the case of Vioxx) is a larger threat to the public than the practice of borrowing political support from the scientific and medical community to report true results.</p>
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		<title>By: John Protevi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261027</link>
		<dc:creator>John Protevi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261027</guid>
		<description>Bill Gardner, thanks for that clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bill Gardner, thanks for that clarification.</p>
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		<title>By: spence-bob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261025</link>
		<dc:creator>spence-bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261025</guid>
		<description>What bothers me more than the ghostwriting is the question of who actually did the research. Ray points to the practice in the sciences of adding one&#039;s name to a publication simply by virtue of the fact that the research was conducted in that individual&#039;s lab; that&#039;s quite a bit different than accepting results of research conducted by a party with a strong financial interest in the outcome and simply writing your name over them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What bothers me more than the ghostwriting is the question of who actually did the research. Ray points to the practice in the sciences of adding one&#8217;s name to a publication simply by virtue of the fact that the research was conducted in that individual&#8217;s lab; that&#8217;s quite a bit different than accepting results of research conducted by a party with a strong financial interest in the outcome and simply writing your name over them.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Gardner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261023</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261023</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;More worrisome to me than this sort of venality is the practice of corporate right of first refusal on publication. In this way they can commission 10 articles, trash the 9 that they don’t like, and publish the 1 that says what they like.&lt;/em&gt;

Again, it was once acceptable for drug companies to attach conditions on publication to research funds given to universities. It isn&#039;t acceptable any longer. 

The manufacturers get what they want by paying academics to consult. Carrots, not sticks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>More worrisome to me than this sort of venality is the practice of corporate right of first refusal on publication. In this way they can commission 10 articles, trash the 9 that they don&#8217;t like, and publish the 1 that says what they like.</em></p>

	<p>Again, it was once acceptable for drug companies to attach conditions on publication to research funds given to universities. It isn&#8217;t acceptable any longer.</p>

	<p>The manufacturers get what they want by paying academics to consult. Carrots, not sticks.</p>
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		<title>By: tom s.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261022</link>
		<dc:creator>tom s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261022</guid>
		<description>&quot;In reality, having someone write articles for you amounts to not doing the job for which, as an academic, you are paid&quot;

Two words. Graduate students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;In reality, having someone write articles for you amounts to not doing the job for which, as an academic, you are paid&#8221;</p>

	<p>Two words. Graduate students.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Gardner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261021</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261021</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;In the sciences, it is quite common for professors heading laboratories (or other members of large collaborations) to sign their names to projects for which they had responsibility or some contribution, but where they did not personally write a single word of the paper.&lt;/em&gt;

This was accepted practice in academic medicine a generation ago. Now, according to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icmje.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals: Writing and Editing for Biomedical Publication&lt;/a&gt; of the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors, it is necessary, but not sufficient, that your contribution includes &quot;drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content&quot;. That is, some actual &lt;em&gt;writing&lt;/em&gt;. I&#039;m sure this norm is still abused, but I hope we have made progress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>In the sciences, it is quite common for professors heading laboratories (or other members of large collaborations) to sign their names to projects for which they had responsibility or some contribution, but where they did not personally write a single word of the paper.</em></p>

	<p>This was accepted practice in academic medicine a generation ago. Now, according to the <a href="http://www.icmje.org/" rel="nofollow">Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals: Writing and Editing for Biomedical Publication</a> of the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors, it is necessary, but not sufficient, that your contribution includes &#8220;drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content&#8221;. That is, some actual <em>writing</em>. I&#8217;m sure this norm is still abused, but I hope we have made progress.</p>
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		<title>By: John Protevi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261018</link>
		<dc:creator>John Protevi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261018</guid>
		<description>Depends on how you define &quot;being paid,&quot; doesn&#039;t it? This &lt;a&gt;WSJ article (subscription required)&lt;/a&gt; details the use of &lt;strike&gt;junkets&lt;/strike&gt; seminars in luxurious ski lodges, etc., where the scientists listen to company sales pitches and review the data that they then sign off on. 

More worrisome to me than this sort of venality is the practice of corporate right of first refusal on publication. In this way they can commission 10 articles, trash the 9 that they don&#039;t like, and publish the 1 that says what they like. I think this means that even if the 1 that is published passes muster for its methodology, statistical analysis, etc., its epistemic import is artificially strengthened through lack of context. Though I think more and more journals are requiring disclosure of such arrangements, I don&#039;t think this disclosure practice is yet universal. 

I&#039;m not an expert in this sort of applied epistemology, though, so if I&#039;m off base here, I&#039;d be happy to be corrected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Depends on how you define &#8220;being paid,&#8221; doesn&#8217;t it? This <a><span class="caps">WSJ</span> article (subscription required)</a> details the use of <strike>junkets</strike> seminars in luxurious ski lodges, etc., where the scientists listen to company sales pitches and review the data that they then sign off on.</p>

	<p>More worrisome to me than this sort of venality is the practice of corporate right of first refusal on publication. In this way they can commission 10 articles, trash the 9 that they don&#8217;t like, and publish the 1 that says what they like. I think this means that even if the 1 that is published passes muster for its methodology, statistical analysis, etc., its epistemic import is artificially strengthened through lack of context. Though I think more and more journals are requiring disclosure of such arrangements, I don&#8217;t think this disclosure practice is yet universal.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not an expert in this sort of applied epistemology, though, so if I&#8217;m off base here, I&#8217;d be happy to be corrected.</p>
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		<title>By: LizardBreath</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/ghostwritten/comment-page-1/#comment-261017</link>
		<dc:creator>LizardBreath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8808#comment-261017</guid>
		<description>After all, there&#039;s no occasion to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>After all, there&#8217;s no occasion to.</p>
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