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	<title>Comments on: They Bellow &#8216;Til We&#8217;re Deaf</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Nick Mamatas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261471</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Mamatas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261471</guid>
		<description>What actually seems to drive Kunkel&#039;s article is not questions of humanity, but the answer.  At least some SF answers the question, &quot;What does it mean to be human?&quot; with &quot;Not a lot.&quot;

Where does this leave the project of politically-engaged realism then?  Nowhere but the past, as a comforting bu inaccurate alternative answer. (&quot;What does it mean to be human?&quot; &quot;Oh, everything!  Everything!  Especially if you&#039;re a white middle-class human from the developed West!&quot;)

Kunkel took a few peeks into the future, didn&#039;t see himself, and freaked.  It is what folks from his sliver of the centrist left do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What actually seems to drive Kunkel&#8217;s article is not questions of humanity, but the answer.  At least some SF answers the question, &#8220;What does it mean to be human?&#8221; with &#8220;Not a lot.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Where does this leave the project of politically-engaged realism then?  Nowhere but the past, as a comforting bu inaccurate alternative answer. (&#8220;What does it mean to be human?&#8221; &#8220;Oh, everything!  Everything!  Especially if you&#8217;re a white middle-class human from the developed West!&#8221;)</p>

	<p>Kunkel took a few peeks into the future, didn&#8217;t see himself, and freaked.  It is what folks from his sliver of the centrist left do.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Davis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261459</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261459</guid>
		<description>What Kunkel doesn&#039;t know about genre fills libraries. But to be fair, willful ignorance greatly eases both the production and publication of grand journalistic pronouncements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What Kunkel doesn&#8217;t know about genre fills libraries. But to be fair, willful ignorance greatly eases both the production and publication of grand journalistic pronouncements.</p>
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		<title>By: Meh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261430</link>
		<dc:creator>Meh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261430</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s so many issues here, from the failed assumptions of universality in a lot of literary novels, to the reality that 2% of literary novels achieve what Kunkel claims.

However, to keep it short. Have to highlight Sebastian and others who point out that the &quot;literary novels&quot; are in fact a genre, with a set of conventions and shorthand archetypes, including ones about the psychological state, emotions and moral sentiments of the characters.

BUT! The most important question is... if the literary novel is such a great developer of introspection and the moral imagination, why are the devotees (authors and readers) generally so shallow, non-introspective and lacking in moral imagination when it comes to actual conversation, as opposed to communing with pieces of paper?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s so many issues here, from the failed assumptions of universality in a lot of literary novels, to the reality that 2% of literary novels achieve what Kunkel claims.</p>

	<p>However, to keep it short. Have to highlight Sebastian and others who point out that the &#8220;literary novels&#8221; are in fact a genre, with a set of conventions and shorthand archetypes, including ones about the psychological state, emotions and moral sentiments of the characters.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BUT</span>! The most important question is&#8230; if the literary novel is such a great developer of introspection and the moral imagination, why are the devotees (authors and readers) generally so shallow, non-introspective and lacking in moral imagination when it comes to actual conversation, as opposed to communing with pieces of paper?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261414</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261414</guid>
		<description>It is notable that he pretty much ignores &lt;i&gt;Oryx And Crake&lt;/i&gt; before saying:

&lt;cite&gt;In sum, when the contemporary novelist contemplates the future—including, it seems, the future of the novel—he or she often forfeits the ability to imagine unique and irreplaceable characters,&lt;/cite&gt;

It is a funny old article, lots of the specific observations are interesting but so much is based on such a partial selection of texts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It is notable that he pretty much ignores <i>Oryx And Crake</i> before saying:</p>

	<p><cite>In sum, when the contemporary novelist contemplates the future&#8212;including, it seems, the future of the novel&#8212;he or she often forfeits the ability to imagine unique and irreplaceable characters,</cite></p>

	<p>It is a funny old article, lots of the specific observations are interesting but so much is based on such a partial selection of texts.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261304</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261304</guid>
		<description>&quot;The literary novel illuminates moral problems (including sometimes those that are also political problems) at the expense of sentimental consolation, while genre fiction typically offers consolation at the expense of illumination.&quot;

I wonder if he only sees illumination of personal moral problems as worthy of attention.  It would be odd, as some literary novels do a good job of illuminating societal or social moral problems, but most of them are largely personal.  Science fiction, and other forms of fiction, illuminate social moral problems by examining the society itslef, which sometimes cause their focus to be on the society more than the inner workings of the characters.  And though many modern science fiction novels adopt the 1st person narrative which is very common in literary novels (and which lends itself to the perception of rounding of characters because we can see their thoughts) many do not, which I would argue artificially creates a sense of distance to a reader who has become used to the comprehensive interiority of the literary novel.  

Now I suppose that the literary novelist might respond that all this is best handled by developing deeply rounded interior characters.  But part of it is a function of time and space in books.  For a realist novel, set in a modern setting, with fairly stock literary novel New England characters, you can jump straight into the interiority of the character because you don&#039;t really have to do anything else to set the stage.  For most such novels, the general societal/social/political stage is already set.  For a good science fiction novel, none of that is taken for granted.  You must set the stage, because the stage is not assumed.  

Now bad science fiction novels just draw from the stock scenery associated with science fiction.  But literary novels do that too, Kunkel just doesn&#039;t see to realize it because for the most part they don&#039;t even have to mention it directly in the book.  It is assumed that the WASPish literary novel reader alreadyknows most of it.  Bad science fiction novels have to be explicit about the stock social contexts they draw from because otherwise you wouldn&#039;t know.  The typical literary novel doesn&#039;t because it assumes it all implicitly.  But for my two cents, a good science fiction novel is often better at examining society because it already has to examine it to set the stage.  Good literary novels often get caught looking awkward when they try to tackle such things because they are forced to either deal with them in very limited ways, or they are forced to set the stage in ways that aren&#039;t normal for the genre.

Now I assume he is talking about the good examples of both genres.  But there is a lot of drek in both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The literary novel illuminates moral problems (including sometimes those that are also political problems) at the expense of sentimental consolation, while genre fiction typically offers consolation at the expense of illumination.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I wonder if he only sees illumination of personal moral problems as worthy of attention.  It would be odd, as some literary novels do a good job of illuminating societal or social moral problems, but most of them are largely personal.  Science fiction, and other forms of fiction, illuminate social moral problems by examining the society itslef, which sometimes cause their focus to be on the society more than the inner workings of the characters.  And though many modern science fiction novels adopt the 1st person narrative which is very common in literary novels (and which lends itself to the perception of rounding of characters because we can see their thoughts) many do not, which I would argue artificially creates a sense of distance to a reader who has become used to the comprehensive interiority of the literary novel.</p>

	<p>Now I suppose that the literary novelist might respond that all this is best handled by developing deeply rounded interior characters.  But part of it is a function of time and space in books.  For a realist novel, set in a modern setting, with fairly stock literary novel New England characters, you can jump straight into the interiority of the character because you don&#8217;t really have to do anything else to set the stage.  For most such novels, the general societal/social/political stage is already set.  For a good science fiction novel, none of that is taken for granted.  You must set the stage, because the stage is not assumed.</p>

	<p>Now bad science fiction novels just draw from the stock scenery associated with science fiction.  But literary novels do that too, Kunkel just doesn&#8217;t see to realize it because for the most part they don&#8217;t even have to mention it directly in the book.  It is assumed that the <span class="caps">WAS</span>Pish literary novel reader alreadyknows most of it.  Bad science fiction novels have to be explicit about the stock social contexts they draw from because otherwise you wouldn&#8217;t know.  The typical literary novel doesn&#8217;t because it assumes it all implicitly.  But for my two cents, a good science fiction novel is often better at examining society because it already has to examine it to set the stage.  Good literary novels often get caught looking awkward when they try to tackle such things because they are forced to either deal with them in very limited ways, or they are forced to set the stage in ways that aren&#8217;t normal for the genre.</p>

	<p>Now I assume he is talking about the good examples of both genres.  But there is a lot of drek in both.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaveh Hemmat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261239</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaveh Hemmat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261239</guid>
		<description>@7
The payoff of a 2500-page series is the progression of interactions between many different well-developed characters. But 2500 pages isn&#039;t even that much for fantasy novels these days, Stephen King&#039;s The Dark Tower Series is seven books, the seventh weighs in at 845. The Harry Potter series should be pretty close to 2500, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@7<br />
The payoff of a 2500-page series is the progression of interactions between many different well-developed characters. But 2500 pages isn&#8217;t even that much for fantasy novels these days, Stephen King&#8217;s The Dark Tower Series is seven books, the seventh weighs in at 845. The Harry Potter series should be pretty close to 2500, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikey in Plano</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261227</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikey in Plano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261227</guid>
		<description>So, I&#039;m not sure I understand Kunkel&#039;s piece entirely.  Is he arguing that somehow genre fiction, in this case, a couple of sub-classes of sci-fi, is apparently mostly (for the last 20 something years) barren of good characterization, because of some limitation of the genre itself, or perhaps the writers attracted to it?  Or something?  As opposed to &quot;literature&quot; which is gloriously full of it?  Or, to put it a bit more causticly, to indicate my level of skepticism, novels written by New England adulterers for New England adulterers about New Englanders committing, ahem, adultery (and occasionally, fornication) somehow lend themselves more readily than genre fiction to illuminate  moral and political problems, and love as well?  Really?  I&#039;ve got to be missing something.

As concerns PKD, I&#039;ll allow that Dick had his problems writing fully individualized characters, and that indeed most of his protagonists are uniformly, almost interchangeably bland.  I&#039;d also say, to his credit, that Dick often turned this bug into a feature, and that in the case of &lt;i&gt;Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep&lt;/i&gt;, the questions &quot;What does it mean to be human?&quot; and &quot;Why is it so hard?&quot; make up the central goddamn themes of the fricking book -- and not just this book either, such being a common theme to his later works, even ones that have much better, more interesting and individualized characters. 

To put this another way, does Kunkel think that writing fully individualized characters is easy?  Hmmm.

I&#039;m probably being too harsh.  I do find his dystopian from gothic, apocalyptic from quest derivation interesting, even useful.

It does seem odd that he didn&#039;t discuss &lt;i&gt;Minority Report&lt;/i&gt;.  I mean, Cruise and Spielberg?  Come on, is it anything other than A-List?  It even dealt with politics, federal vs. state vs. individual.  Or does Kunkel mean something else by &quot;politics&quot;?  Morality and love, too, if I recall correctly, with a fair amount of subtlety.  Fuck the outliers, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So, I&#8217;m not sure I understand Kunkel&#8217;s piece entirely.  Is he arguing that somehow genre fiction, in this case, a couple of sub-classes of sci-fi, is apparently mostly (for the last 20 something years) barren of good characterization, because of some limitation of the genre itself, or perhaps the writers attracted to it?  Or something?  As opposed to &#8220;literature&#8221; which is gloriously full of it?  Or, to put it a bit more causticly, to indicate my level of skepticism, novels written by New England adulterers for New England adulterers about New Englanders committing, ahem, adultery (and occasionally, fornication) somehow lend themselves more readily than genre fiction to illuminate  moral and political problems, and love as well?  Really?  I&#8217;ve got to be missing something.</p>

	<p>As concerns <span class="caps">PKD</span>, I&#8217;ll allow that Dick had his problems writing fully individualized characters, and that indeed most of his protagonists are uniformly, almost interchangeably bland.  I&#8217;d also say, to his credit, that Dick often turned this bug into a feature, and that in the case of <i>Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep</i>, the questions &#8220;What does it mean to be human?&#8221; and &#8220;Why is it so hard?&#8221; make up the central goddamn themes of the fricking book&#8212;and not just this book either, such being a common theme to his later works, even ones that have much better, more interesting and individualized characters.</p>

	<p>To put this another way, does Kunkel think that writing fully individualized characters is easy?  Hmmm.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m probably being too harsh.  I do find his dystopian from gothic, apocalyptic from quest derivation interesting, even useful.</p>

	<p>It does seem odd that he didn&#8217;t discuss <i>Minority Report</i>.  I mean, Cruise and Spielberg?  Come on, is it anything other than A-List?  It even dealt with politics, federal vs. state vs. individual.  Or does Kunkel mean something else by &#8220;politics&#8221;?  Morality and love, too, if I recall correctly, with a fair amount of subtlety.  Fuck the outliers, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Harvey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261189</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261189</guid>
		<description>While I don&#039;t love me some Kunkel that much, I have to grant him at
least a little more wit than this.  His use of the phrase &quot;read&quot; here
means, I think, that he takes Dick to be using the idea of the android
to be talking about something else.  His shorthand is &quot;clones&quot;, but I
think he&#039;s really indicating a larger (modern) tradition of clones,
doubles, doppelgangers, and synthetic men (a la Mary Shelley), all
part of how literature has been grappling with the idea of the human
in the last couple hundred years.  I have no problem with Kunkel
gesturing in that direction.

I do think he&#039;s being blithe when he assumes that E. M. Forster&#039;s
distinction between flat and round characters === a transhistorical
distinction between genre fiction and literary fiction.  His
deployment of the word &quot;withering&quot; to help him make this case -- on
one hand, something healthy, growing, and *natural*, and on the other
hand the same specimen, distored, denatured, and starved  . . .  -- is
a withered form of argumentation.

As we see in some of the follow-up to Kunkel, we can produce various
examples of literary fiction -- fiction that has been important in how
we self-conceive and self-represent -- with no round characters.
Pilgrim&#039;s Progress and so forth.  That is to say, there most
definitely have been very good books that are nonetheless about things
*other* than representing compelling human personalities (just as
there have been paintings other than realistic portraits!).

However, a serious engagement with the question of how to represent a
human being, in writing, often produces really great results.

What&#039;s common, amongst Pilgrim&#039;s Progress, Gulliver&#039;s Travels, Mary
Shelley&#039;s Frankenstein, Godel Escher Bach, and Nancy Drew novels, is
not to take up that question at all.  They use entirely received and
derivative ways of representing human figures and their actions and
speech.  Simply because they are concerned with other things.

Why people need to automatically assign moral value one way or the
other -- POINT: moral value accrues to making characters round;
COUNTERPOINT: no it doesn&#039;t -- is just a dumb thing about people.
It&#039;s a dumb thing about Kunkel, and it&#039;s a dumb thing about the people
outraged by Kunkel.

But, in defense of people, it also has something to do with the fact
that representing round characters is really hard (as is painting
interesting realistic human figures).  Cultural value often
accumulates around things that are hard.  And also around human
self-picturing.  Self-picturing has, and confers, power, and we invest
emotion into convincing pictures, and release it through those
pictures.  We want to understand ourselves, and our place, in the
scheme of things, by seeing fragments of ourselves in those pictures.

But . . .. that&#039;s not *all* we want to do, which Kunkel seems to be
deliberately forgetting.  We also want to solve crimes, visit future
worlds, etc.  And these are additional ways in which we (perhaps more
indirectly) self-picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While I don&#8217;t love me some Kunkel that much, I have to grant him at<br />
least a little more wit than this.  His use of the phrase &#8220;read&#8221; here<br />
means, I think, that he takes Dick to be using the idea of the android<br />
to be talking about something else.  His shorthand is &#8220;clones&#8221;, but I<br />
think he&#8217;s really indicating a larger (modern) tradition of clones,<br />
doubles, doppelgangers, and synthetic men (a la Mary Shelley), all<br />
part of how literature has been grappling with the idea of the human<br />
in the last couple hundred years.  I have no problem with Kunkel<br />
gesturing in that direction.</p>

	<p>I do think he&#8217;s being blithe when he assumes that E. M. Forster&#8217;s<br />
distinction between flat and round characters === a transhistorical<br />
distinction between genre fiction and literary fiction.  His<br />
deployment of the word &#8220;withering&#8221; to help him make this case&#8212;on<br />
one hand, something healthy, growing, and <strong>natural</strong>, and on the other<br />
hand the same specimen, distored, denatured, and starved  . . . &#8212;is<br />
a withered form of argumentation.</p>

	<p>As we see in some of the follow-up to Kunkel, we can produce various<br />
examples of literary fiction&#8212;fiction that has been important in how<br />
we self-conceive and self-represent&#8212;with no round characters.<br />
Pilgrim&#8217;s Progress and so forth.  That is to say, there most<br />
definitely have been very good books that are nonetheless about things<br />
<strong>other</strong> than representing compelling human personalities (just as<br />
there have been paintings other than realistic portraits!).</p>

	<p>However, a serious engagement with the question of how to represent a<br />
human being, in writing, often produces really great results.</p>

	<p>What&#8217;s common, amongst Pilgrim&#8217;s Progress, Gulliver&#8217;s Travels, Mary<br />
Shelley&#8217;s Frankenstein, Godel Escher Bach, and Nancy Drew novels, is<br />
not to take up that question at all.  They use entirely received and<br />
derivative ways of representing human figures and their actions and<br />
speech.  Simply because they are concerned with other things.</p>

	<p>Why people need to automatically assign moral value one way or the<br />
other&#8212;<span class="caps">POINT</span>: moral value accrues to making characters round;<br />
<span class="caps">COUNTERPOINT</span>: no it doesn&#8217;t&#8212;is just a dumb thing about people.<br />
It&#8217;s a dumb thing about Kunkel, and it&#8217;s a dumb thing about the people<br />
outraged by Kunkel.</p>

	<p>But, in defense of people, it also has something to do with the fact<br />
that representing round characters is really hard (as is painting<br />
interesting realistic human figures).  Cultural value often<br />
accumulates around things that are hard.  And also around human<br />
self-picturing.  Self-picturing has, and confers, power, and we invest<br />
emotion into convincing pictures, and release it through those<br />
pictures.  We want to understand ourselves, and our place, in the<br />
scheme of things, by seeing fragments of ourselves in those pictures.</p>

	<p>But . . .. that&#8217;s not <strong>all</strong> we want to do, which Kunkel seems to be<br />
deliberately forgetting.  We also want to solve crimes, visit future<br />
worlds, etc.  And these are additional ways in which we (perhaps more<br />
indirectly) self-picture.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Baugh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261182</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Baugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261182</guid>
		<description>Arcseed, if you read Dick&#039;s essays and speeches you&#039;ll find this theme of real and fake humanity running all through it, from almost the beginning of his career right up to his death. Lawrence Sutin&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Shifting-Realities-Philip-Dick-Philosophical/dp/0679747877&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Shifting Realities of Philip K. Dick&lt;/a&gt; has a bunch on this. From Dick&#039;s 1975 essay &quot;Man, Androids, and Machine&quot;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;These creatures are among us, although morphologically they do not differ from us; we must not posit a difference of essence, but a difference of behavior. In my science fiction I write about about them constantly. Sometimes they themselves do not know they are androids. Like Rachel Rosen, they can be pretty but somehow lack something; or, like Pris in We Can Build You, they can be absolutely born of a human womb and even design androids - the Abraham Lincoln one in that book - and themselves be without warmth; they then fall within the clinical entity &quot;schizoid,&quot; which means lacking proper feeling. I am sure we mean the same thing here, with the emphasis on the word &quot;thing.&quot; A human being without the proper empathy or feeling is the same as an android built so as to lack it, either by design or mistake. We mean, basically, someone who does not care about the fate which his fellow living creatures fall victim to; he stands detached, a spectator, acting out by his indifference John Donne&#039;s theorem that &quot;No man is an island,&quot; but giving that theorem a twist: that which is a mental and a moral island is not a man.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Arcseed, if you read Dick&#8217;s essays and speeches you&#8217;ll find this theme of real and fake humanity running all through it, from almost the beginning of his career right up to his death. Lawrence Sutin&#8217;s <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Shifting-Realities-Philip-Dick-Philosophical/dp/0679747877" rel="nofollow">The Shifting Realities of Philip K. Dick</a> has a bunch on this. From Dick&#8217;s 1975 essay &#8220;Man, Androids, and Machine&#8221;:</p>

	<p><blockquote>These creatures are among us, although morphologically they do not differ from us; we must not posit a difference of essence, but a difference of behavior. In my science fiction I write about about them constantly. Sometimes they themselves do not know they are androids. Like Rachel Rosen, they can be pretty but somehow lack something; or, like Pris in We Can Build You, they can be absolutely born of a human womb and even design androids &#8211; the Abraham Lincoln one in that book &#8211; and themselves be without warmth; they then fall within the clinical entity &#8220;schizoid,&#8221; which means lacking proper feeling. I am sure we mean the same thing here, with the emphasis on the word &#8220;thing.&#8221; A human being without the proper empathy or feeling is the same as an android built so as to lack it, either by design or mistake. We mean, basically, someone who does not care about the fate which his fellow living creatures fall victim to; he stands detached, a spectator, acting out by his indifference John Donne&#8217;s theorem that &#8220;No man is an island,&#8221; but giving that theorem a twist: that which is a mental and a moral island is not a man.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: minneapolitan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261150</link>
		<dc:creator>minneapolitan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261150</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;it is the hallmark of genre fiction to treat characters instrumentally, putting them through the paces of the plot according to their function as the embodiment of some general psychological or social category&lt;/i&gt;
See Twist, Oliver and Valjean, Jean

And how is late-twentieth-century-middle-or-upper-middle-conflicted-individualist not a psychological, social category? Fah.

Also, re: B-movies, I&#039;m not sure that this is a useful category with which to talk about contemporary film. Traditionally, the B-movie was a film put out by a major studio that didn&#039;t feature a major star, but still had a cast and crew drawn from the studio&#039;s stable. A lot of Robert Mitchum&#039;s early work for instance. Slapdash genre stuff with no stars and no name director is more like Z-grade. Since we don&#039;t have the studio system to kick around anymore, B-grade doesn&#039;t make sense, since there&#039;s no one to have a B-list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>it is the hallmark of genre fiction to treat characters instrumentally, putting them through the paces of the plot according to their function as the embodiment of some general psychological or social category</i><br />
See Twist, Oliver and Valjean, Jean</p>

	<p>And how is late-twentieth-century-middle-or-upper-middle-conflicted-individualist not a psychological, social category? Fah.</p>

	<p>Also, re: B-movies, I&#8217;m not sure that this is a useful category with which to talk about contemporary film. Traditionally, the B-movie was a film put out by a major studio that didn&#8217;t feature a major star, but still had a cast and crew drawn from the studio&#8217;s stable. A lot of Robert Mitchum&#8217;s early work for instance. Slapdash genre stuff with no stars and no name director is more like Z-grade. Since we don&#8217;t have the studio system to kick around anymore, B-grade doesn&#8217;t make sense, since there&#8217;s no one to have a B-list.</p>
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		<title>By: arcseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261124</link>
		<dc:creator>arcseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 06:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261124</guid>
		<description>Bruce, that&#039;s an odd reading of Dick.  What about &lt;i&gt;We Can Build You&lt;/i&gt;?  In which whatever the spark of humanity is, while Lincoln and Stanton may or may not have it, Pris almost certainly doesn&#039;t.  The worldview of the characters Dick writes in &lt;i&gt;Androids&lt;/i&gt; doesn&#039;t have room for the androids to be anything but imitations, but I think that&#039;s a hard thing to pin on Dick himself.  

What I do think is that Dick isn&#039;t particularly interested in the question.  Replicants and androids and cyborg space prophets are plot devices that he made up to tell the story.  What Dick wants to know is: what is that spark of humanity?  Do some (real) people have it while others don&#039;t?  Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bruce, that&#8217;s an odd reading of Dick.  What about <i>We Can Build You</i>?  In which whatever the spark of humanity is, while Lincoln and Stanton may or may not have it, Pris almost certainly doesn&#8217;t.  The worldview of the characters Dick writes in <i>Androids</i> doesn&#8217;t have room for the androids to be anything but imitations, but I think that&#8217;s a hard thing to pin on Dick himself.</p>

	<p>What I do think is that Dick isn&#8217;t particularly interested in the question.  Replicants and androids and cyborg space prophets are plot devices that he made up to tell the story.  What Dick wants to know is: what is that spark of humanity?  Do some (real) people have it while others don&#8217;t?  Why?</p>
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		<title>By: Ehrsaadts Gle´</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261119</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehrsaadts Gle´</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261119</guid>
		<description>Kunkel oversimplifies as much as anyone here. So here&#039;s the rundown:
Great art is not cerebral.  &quot;Literary&quot; fiction is fiction that has transcended its genre: Jane Austen began with a genre.  What comes down to us as literary fiction is the art not of naming but of architecture and description.  What is written as literary fiction is often little more than mannerism and affect. Cerebral and speculative fiction, &quot;philosophical art,&quot; begins from ideas and assumption.  By the definitions used by all here the Iliad and the Odyssey would be genre fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kunkel oversimplifies as much as anyone here. So here&#8217;s the rundown:<br />
Great art is not cerebral.  &#8220;Literary&#8221; fiction is fiction that has transcended its genre: Jane Austen began with a genre.  What comes down to us as literary fiction is the art not of naming but of architecture and description.  What is written as literary fiction is often little more than mannerism and affect. Cerebral and speculative fiction, &#8220;philosophical art,&#8221; begins from ideas and assumption.  By the definitions used by all here the Iliad and the Odyssey would be genre fiction.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Baugh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261115</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Baugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261115</guid>
		<description>Kunkel&#039;s wrong about Dick. One of the constants in Dick&#039;s work is that the imitation human is never the true human, and never become it. Androids don&#039;t dream of electric sheep. Palmer Eldritch left the human race. And so on. Ursula Le Guin brought this to my attention at one of her conversations at Orycon some years back, noting that &lt;i&gt;Blade Runner&lt;/i&gt; exactly inverts Dick&#039;s point. She&#039;s right, too - it&#039;s an excellent film, but there&#039;s no room in Dick&#039;s worldview for Deckard or Rachael to be anything but very sophisticated imitations. Whatever the spark of humanity is, they &lt;i&gt;can&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; have it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kunkel&#8217;s wrong about Dick. One of the constants in Dick&#8217;s work is that the imitation human is never the true human, and never become it. Androids don&#8217;t dream of electric sheep. Palmer Eldritch left the human race. And so on. Ursula Le Guin brought this to my attention at one of her conversations at Orycon some years back, noting that <i>Blade Runner</i> exactly inverts Dick&#8217;s point. She&#8217;s right, too &#8211; it&#8217;s an excellent film, but there&#8217;s no room in Dick&#8217;s worldview for Deckard or Rachael to be anything but very sophisticated imitations. Whatever the spark of humanity is, they <i>can&#8217;t</i> have it.</p>
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		<title>By: sara</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261113</link>
		<dc:creator>sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261113</guid>
		<description>Ursula K. Le Guin dealt with this decades ago in &quot;Science Fiction and Mrs. Brown&quot; -- countering the high-culture critic&#039;s assertion that there were no literary characters in SF on the order of Woolf&#039;s Mrs. Brown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ursula K. Le Guin dealt with this decades ago in &#8220;Science Fiction and Mrs. Brown&#8221;&#8212;countering the high-culture critic&#8217;s assertion that there were no literary characters in SF on the order of Woolf&#8217;s Mrs. Brown.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/16/they-bellow-til-were-deaf/comment-page-1/#comment-261105</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8812#comment-261105</guid>
		<description>I have long resisted tendencies to try to conflate the methods of genre fiction (at its best) with mainstream literary fictions. Of course, they do overlap.

Dark Suvin says the key difference between literary and speculative fiction is &lt;i&gt;cognitive estrangement&lt;/i&gt;. I think the imaginary worlds of speculative fictions do act on the reader in ways character &amp; plots do in literary fiction. The world of &lt;i&gt;Androids&lt;/i&gt; forces moral work on the reader in the way that Faulkner&#039;s South or the world of Kafka does. Or Lilliput.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have long resisted tendencies to try to conflate the methods of genre fiction (at its best) with mainstream literary fictions. Of course, they do overlap.</p>

	<p>Dark Suvin says the key difference between literary and speculative fiction is <i>cognitive estrangement</i>. I think the imaginary worlds of speculative fictions do act on the reader in ways character &#038; plots do in literary fiction. The world of <i>Androids</i> forces moral work on the reader in the way that Faulkner&#8217;s South or the world of Kafka does. Or Lilliput.</p>
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