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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Bush-Era Culture&#8221; (Shudder)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261666</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261666</guid>
		<description>On further reflection, certainly Downfall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On further reflection, certainly Downfall.</p>
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		<title>By: om</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261451</link>
		<dc:creator>om</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 04:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261451</guid>
		<description>No one suggested There Will Be Blood?!

I&#039;m shocked!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No one suggested There Will Be Blood?!</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m shocked!</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261438</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261438</guid>
		<description>Mrs T @64:
My apologies to Baron-Cohen and anyone else maligned or discomfited by my misapprehension.
It was based entirely on the &quot;Ali&quot; in Ali G, and SB-C&#039;s visual presentation of the character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mrs T @64:<br />
My apologies to Baron-Cohen and anyone else maligned or discomfited by my misapprehension.<br />
It was based entirely on the &#8220;Ali&#8221; in Ali G, and SB-C&#8217;s visual presentation of the character.</p>
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		<title>By: michael e sullivan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261417</link>
		<dc:creator>michael e sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261417</guid>
		<description>49:  It was overstretch to describe such parties as &quot;cooked up&quot; by self-described liberals.  There may be some, but that is probably not the case for most, if any.  I do know people who have attended such things, or defended them, who are self-described liberals.  I would not describe them as liberals, hence the quotes.  

I certainly did not mean to suggest that this was the typical behavior of self-described liberals.

60:  No, Borat isn&#039;t really different at all from Latka Gravas.  Andy Kaufman was a pig.  His later antics make that much more obvious.   But Latka is plenty offensive enough, even if I didn&#039;t quite understand why as a teenager.  Mork?   I don&#039;t remember it well enough to judge.  He wasn&#039;t indicated as any particular race or ethnicity explicitly and I don&#039;t recall if there were obvious enough tropes that it qualifies, but assuming there were, I&#039;d say it&#039;s essentially the same schtick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>49:  It was overstretch to describe such parties as &#8220;cooked up&#8221; by self-described liberals.  There may be some, but that is probably not the case for most, if any.  I do know people who have attended such things, or defended them, who are self-described liberals.  I would not describe them as liberals, hence the quotes.</p>

	<p>I certainly did not mean to suggest that this was the typical behavior of self-described liberals.</p>

	<p>60:  No, Borat isn&#8217;t really different at all from Latka Gravas.  Andy Kaufman was a pig.  His later antics make that much more obvious.   But Latka is plenty offensive enough, even if I didn&#8217;t quite understand why as a teenager.  Mork?   I don&#8217;t remember it well enough to judge.  He wasn&#8217;t indicated as any particular race or ethnicity explicitly and I don&#8217;t recall if there were obvious enough tropes that it qualifies, but assuming there were, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s essentially the same schtick.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261399</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261399</guid>
		<description>Ah, humour, such dangerous stuff. How much better-off we will be after the revolution, when all perceptions are fully calibrated to objective reality, and jokes will become impossible.

Meanwhile, I think SB-C is a dick, but Ali G was definitely supposed to be white.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah, humour, such dangerous stuff. How much better-off we will be after the revolution, when all perceptions are fully calibrated to objective reality, and jokes will become impossible.</p>

	<p>Meanwhile, I think SB-C is a dick, but Ali G was definitely supposed to be white.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs Tilton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261378</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261378</guid>
		<description>notsneaky @59,

I hadn&#039;t realised that our opinions overlap 99.99% of the time, so it saddens me that we must part ways over &lt;i&gt;Borat&lt;/i&gt;.

Seriously, to address your point (and that of several others, starting with engels), I should make clear that I agree that much of Baron Cohen&#039;s work is coarse, and that a Kazakh (or generic eastern European or central Asian -- only the latter really applies to K&#039;stan, but Baron Cohen is, I think deliberately, pretty vague about what sort of place Borat&#039;s &quot;Kazakhstan&quot; is) could well take offence. I&#039;d think them a bit thinskinned myself, but certainly well within their rights. [FN 1] Baron Cohen&#039;s American targets have more serious grounds to be offended, but then they are for the most part people who deserve offence. I don&#039;t want to come over as an impassioned defender of Baron Cohen. I simply think one&#039;s offence-o-metre has to be calibrated very loosely to dismiss the film as mere racist bigotry. (Kaveh @46, I know Borat only from the film. What you describe from &lt;i&gt;SNL&lt;/i&gt; is less defensible though still, I think, not quite equivalent to &lt;i&gt;Der Stürmer&lt;/i&gt;.)

Roy @48,

&lt;i&gt;A Jew making a stand-up career pretending to be a bling-draped Arab hip-hop wannabe Muslim asshole&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s an uncommon Arab, I&#039;d say, who rejoices in the name &quot;Alistair Leslie Graham&quot;. It might be the &quot;Ali&quot; part that has you thinking Baron Cohen&#039;s first famous character is an Arab. It is, instead, just part of his wannabeicity. I don&#039;t find Ali G the funniest thing in the world, I&#039;m sorry to say, but I will always have a place in my heart for him after his Sammy Wilson interview.

[FN 1] Apparently, though, few Kazakhs are offended. On the whole they seem to think the film a scream, as Novakant notes @62; but to be fair one should also note that, whatever about your man in the Almalinskiy omnibus,  at the time the Kazakh government was very definitely not amused (until, if I what I heard is correct, their president&#039;s daughter told them to lighten up).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>notsneaky @59,</p>

	<p>I hadn&#8217;t realised that our opinions overlap 99.99% of the time, so it saddens me that we must part ways over <i>Borat</i>.</p>

	<p>Seriously, to address your point (and that of several others, starting with engels), I should make clear that I agree that much of Baron Cohen&#8217;s work is coarse, and that a Kazakh (or generic eastern European or central Asian&#8212;only the latter really applies to K&#8217;stan, but Baron Cohen is, I think deliberately, pretty vague about what sort of place Borat&#8217;s &#8220;Kazakhstan&#8221; is) could well take offence. I&#8217;d think them a bit thinskinned myself, but certainly well within their rights. [FN 1] Baron Cohen&#8217;s American targets have more serious grounds to be offended, but then they are for the most part people who deserve offence. I don&#8217;t want to come over as an impassioned defender of Baron Cohen. I simply think one&#8217;s offence-o-metre has to be calibrated very loosely to dismiss the film as mere racist bigotry. (Kaveh @46, I know Borat only from the film. What you describe from <i><span class="caps">SNL</span></i> is less defensible though still, I think, not quite equivalent to <i>Der St&#252;rmer</i>.)</p>

	<p>Roy @48,</p>

	<p><i>A Jew making a stand-up career pretending to be a bling-draped Arab hip-hop wannabe Muslim asshole</i></p>

	<p>It&#8217;s an uncommon Arab, I&#8217;d say, who rejoices in the name &#8220;Alistair Leslie Graham&#8221;. It might be the &#8220;Ali&#8221; part that has you thinking Baron Cohen&#8217;s first famous character is an Arab. It is, instead, just part of his wannabeicity. I don&#8217;t find Ali G the funniest thing in the world, I&#8217;m sorry to say, but I will always have a place in my heart for him after his Sammy Wilson interview.</p>

	<p>[FN 1] Apparently, though, few Kazakhs are offended. On the whole they seem to think the film a scream, as Novakant notes @62; but to be fair one should also note that, whatever about your man in the Almalinskiy omnibus,  at the time the Kazakh government was very definitely not amused (until, if I what I heard is correct, their president&#8217;s daughter told them to lighten up).</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261340</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 00:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261340</guid>
		<description>In &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalocalypse&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Metalocalypse&lt;/a&gt; five idiots export aggressive culture around the world, killing and maiming largely through misadventure, getting away with it all because they are too powerful to stop.

I guess it fails as Bush culture because the show has the lead characters remain the most popular people on Earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalocalypse" rel="nofollow">Metalocalypse</a> five idiots export aggressive culture around the world, killing and maiming largely through misadventure, getting away with it all because they are too powerful to stop.</p>

	<p>I guess it fails as Bush culture because the show has the lead characters remain the most popular people on Earth.</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261338</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261338</guid>
		<description>Well, he made me feel sympathetic towards &lt;a href=&quot;http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P842Tmi6lrc&amp;feature=related&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Posh and Becks&lt;/a&gt; - no mean feat. Don&#039;t know if this can be applied to the Borat case, but nobody I know actually thinks the Kazakhs throw Jews down the well. Also, Wikipedia quotes a Kazakh newspaper, novelist and the national football team as being highly supportive of the movie and adds that the DVD is a top seller in Kazakhstan. 

P.S.: I&#039;m so geeky that when I first came across Sacha Baron-Cohen&#039;s oeuvre, I wondered if there was any relation to Simon Baron-Cohen - turns out they&#039;re cousins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, he made me feel sympathetic towards <a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P842Tmi6lrc&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">Posh and Becks</a> &#8211; no mean feat. Don&#8217;t know if this can be applied to the Borat case, but nobody I know actually thinks the Kazakhs throw Jews down the well. Also, Wikipedia quotes a Kazakh newspaper, novelist and the national football team as being highly supportive of the movie and adds that the <span class="caps">DVD</span> is a top seller in Kazakhstan.</p>

	<p>P.S.: I&#8217;m so geeky that when I first came across Sacha Baron-Cohen&#8217;s oeuvre, I wondered if there was any relation to Simon Baron-Cohen &#8211; turns out they&#8217;re cousins.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Weeden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261337</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Weeden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261337</guid>
		<description>I may think this because I&#039;m reading it at the moment, but &quot;Nixonland&quot; does a very good job of addressing &quot;eight often turbulent years with a divided electorate and a fractured media landscape.&quot;

I did try reading some of the Newsweek efforts. I liked the one on &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.newsweek.com/id/174269&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;American Idol&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Start with the title: in England, the show was called &quot;Pop Idol&quot;—but when it migrated here in 2002, it apparently needed an infusion of patriotism. So, much like freedom fries, &quot;American Idol&quot; was born. ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;And like Dubya, the show makes a virtue of its unflagging consistency. &quot;Idol&quot; is the most predictable show on television. Simon Cowell is always the evil one. (It&#039;s no accident that he&#039;s also the only foreigner at the judges&#039; table.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But Simon Cowell is the evil one in England [sic] too. This whole exercise couldn&#039;t be reading too much into Bush could it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I may think this because I&#8217;m reading it at the moment, but &#8220;Nixonland&#8221; does a very good job of addressing &#8220;eight often turbulent years with a divided electorate and a fractured media landscape.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I did try reading some of the Newsweek efforts. I liked the one on <a href='http://www.newsweek.com/id/174269' rel="nofollow">American Idol</a>:</p>

	<p><blockquote>Start with the title: in England, the show was called &#8220;Pop Idol&#8221;&#8212;but when it migrated here in 2002, it apparently needed an infusion of patriotism. So, much like freedom fries, &#8220;American Idol&#8221; was born. &#8230;</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>And like Dubya, the show makes a virtue of its unflagging consistency. &#8220;Idol&#8221; is the most predictable show on television. Simon Cowell is always the evil one. (It&#8217;s no accident that he&#8217;s also the only foreigner at the judges&#8217; table.)</blockquote></p>

	<p>But Simon Cowell is the evil one in England [sic] too. This whole exercise couldn&#8217;t be reading too much into Bush could it?</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261335</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261335</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The whole “it’s a joke on unsuspecting racists” is just thrown in to make all the straight up racism palatable and guilt free.&lt;/blockquote&gt; I disagree, but it&#039;s a tough line to walk and if the SNL episode mentioned above is as described that seems like a failure.  It may be that the film is also a failure but I haven&#039;t seen it.  SBC&#039;s error may have been to choose an actual country.  Personally I don&#039;t think Borat is in any way different from these two guys except for the Candid Camera element:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latka_Gravas  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_from_Ork</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>The whole &#8220;it&#8217;s a joke on unsuspecting racists&#8221; is just thrown in to make all the straight up racism palatable and guilt free.</blockquote> I disagree, but it&#8217;s a tough line to walk and if the <span class="caps">SNL</span> episode mentioned above is as described that seems like a failure.  It may be that the film is also a failure but I haven&#8217;t seen it.  <span class="caps">SBC</span>&#8217;s error may have been to choose an actual country.  Personally I don&#8217;t think Borat is in any way different from these two guys except for the Candid Camera element:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latka_Gravas" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latka_Gravas</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_from_Ork" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_from_Ork</a></p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261334</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261334</guid>
		<description>Just want to note that this is one of those 1 in 100 instances where I agree with Engels. And the fact that I&#039;m simultaneously disagreeing with Mrs. Tilton makes it 1 in 10000. The whole &quot;it&#039;s a joke on unsuspecting racists&quot; is just thrown in to make all the straight up racism palatable and guilt free. The only thing noteworthy about SBC is that he manages to make standard fratboy humor (who I&#039;m willing to bet are the majority of the intended audience here) appeal to folks who should know better. Lenny Bruce it ain&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just want to note that this is one of those 1 in 100 instances where I agree with Engels. And the fact that I&#8217;m simultaneously disagreeing with Mrs. Tilton makes it 1 in 10000. The whole &#8220;it&#8217;s a joke on unsuspecting racists&#8221; is just thrown in to make all the straight up racism palatable and guilt free. The only thing noteworthy about <span class="caps">SBC</span> is that he manages to make standard fratboy humor (who I&#8217;m willing to bet are the majority of the intended audience here) appeal to folks who should know better. Lenny Bruce it ain&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaveh Hemmat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261333</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaveh Hemmat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261333</guid>
		<description>@53 I should point out that I haven&#039;t actually read &lt;i&gt;Reading Lolita&lt;/i&gt;, I&#039;ve heard it&#039;s very good, though it&#039;s been criticized as (perhaps unintentionally) neocon-enabling. My concern with Laura Bush&#039;s interest in it has to do with the title more than the contents, and, thin as that sauce is, I do think there&#039;s something to it. To be clear, I don&#039;t think Laura Bush sat down one day and said to herself &quot;what can I do to inscribe perversity into Muslim male bodies?&quot; but I do suspect she could have been subtly influenced by her environment to zero in on that book; at the very least she is (surprise! gasp!) guilty of being careless of the implications of promoting it.

King Darius with eye makeup in 300 was a better &quot;sample of standard homophobic “the enemy-is-effeminate”&quot;, imo, than Saddam Hussein in South Park. The latter wasn&#039;t actually effeminate, iirc, at least not in any other ways, not in the way that, say, Prince Edward in Braveheart was. It&#039;s more like his hyper-masculinity is rolled over to a negative value, and his &quot;submitting&quot; to the devil is funny because it&#039;s ironic. I think he and Borat are of a type, which different from the effeminate tyrant motif, though there is some overlap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@53 I should point out that I haven&#8217;t actually read <i>Reading Lolita</i>, I&#8217;ve heard it&#8217;s very good, though it&#8217;s been criticized as (perhaps unintentionally) neocon-enabling. My concern with Laura Bush&#8217;s interest in it has to do with the title more than the contents, and, thin as that sauce is, I do think there&#8217;s something to it. To be clear, I don&#8217;t think Laura Bush sat down one day and said to herself &#8220;what can I do to inscribe perversity into Muslim male bodies?&#8221; but I do suspect she could have been subtly influenced by her environment to zero in on that book; at the very least she is (surprise! gasp!) guilty of being careless of the implications of promoting it.</p>

	<p>King Darius with eye makeup in 300 was a better &#8220;sample of standard homophobic &#8220;the enemy-is-effeminate&#8221;&#8221;, imo, than Saddam Hussein in South Park. The latter wasn&#8217;t actually effeminate, iirc, at least not in any other ways, not in the way that, say, Prince Edward in Braveheart was. It&#8217;s more like his hyper-masculinity is rolled over to a negative value, and his &#8220;submitting&#8221; to the devil is funny because it&#8217;s ironic. I think he and Borat are of a type, which different from the effeminate tyrant motif, though there is some overlap.</p>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261327</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261327</guid>
		<description>Hollywood, Righteous Bubba.

Seriously though, watching good lighting  work is amazing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hollywood, Righteous Bubba.</p>

	<p>Seriously though, watching good lighting  work is amazing.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261325</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261325</guid>
		<description>Who are these betrayers of verisimilitude that have invented these enfabulousnating new techniques of lighting and make-up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Who are these betrayers of verisimilitude that have invented these enfabulousnating new techniques of lighting and make-up?</p>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/17/bush-era-culture-shudder/comment-page-2/#comment-261324</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8838#comment-261324</guid>
		<description>52: Not fake, but what you see is at least as much lighting (and probably makeup) as it is workouts</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>52: Not fake, but what you see is at least as much lighting (and probably makeup) as it is workouts</p>
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