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	<title>Comments on: Christmas, 1941</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262053</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262053</guid>
		<description>For comparison, try this collection of newsreel clips from those times:

1940-41 War comes to England
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iRy-8-WkjyQ

And this for just one day during the Battle of Britain:

One day in the sky of britain 1940:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPFHX1QFF1g

To put this dreadful history into better perspective, Britain&#039;s population in 1940 was c. 40 million, almost exactly half that of Germany plus Austria at 79 million.

In round numbers, RAF fighter pilot losses during the Battle of Britain were just under 600, approximately a quarter of the Luftwaffe aircrew losses during the battle.

All told during the war 1939-45, civilian losses in Britain from air raids were just over 60,000. About 65,000 aircrew were lost in RAF Bomber Command during the war as a result of bombing raids over mainland Europe but then that was about equal to German civilian losses in Hamburg alone from the 1000 bomber raids during the summer months of 1943.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For comparison, try this collection of newsreel clips from those times:</p>

	<p>1940-41 War comes to England<br />
<a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iRy-8-WkjyQ" rel="nofollow">http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iRy-8-WkjyQ</a></p>

	<p>And this for just one day during the Battle of Britain:</p>

	<p>One day in the sky of britain 1940:<br />
<a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPFHX1QFF1g" rel="nofollow">http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPFHX1QFF1g</a></p>

	<p>To put this dreadful history into better perspective, Britain&#8217;s population in 1940 was c. 40 million, almost exactly half that of Germany plus Austria at 79 million.</p>

	<p>In round numbers, <span class="caps">RAF</span> fighter pilot losses during the Battle of Britain were just under 600, approximately a quarter of the Luftwaffe aircrew losses during the battle.</p>

	<p>All told during the war 1939-45, civilian losses in Britain from air raids were just over 60,000. About 65,000 aircrew were lost in <span class="caps">RAF </span>Bomber Command during the war as a result of bombing raids over mainland Europe but then that was about equal to German civilian losses in Hamburg alone from the 1000 bomber raids during the summer months of 1943.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BFI YouTube Channel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262020</link>
		<dc:creator>BFI YouTube Channel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262020</guid>
		<description>Given the debate about the date of this film, thought I should clarify... Yes, the film was shot in 1940, but not released until 1941. It is usual to supply the release date for films rather than the production date (which is often more difficult to determine). Many wartime propaganda films recycled footage from previous years/films, so using the release date is particularly important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Given the debate about the date of this film, thought I should clarify&#8230; Yes, the film was shot in 1940, but not released until 1941. It is usual to supply the release date for films rather than the production date (which is often more difficult to determine). Many wartime propaganda films recycled footage from previous years/films, so using the release date is particularly important.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262011</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 16:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262011</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Or was it the resistance to Communist led movements in South and Central America that you find “militaristic?”
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Is there some kind of christmas prize for this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote><br />
Or was it the resistance to Communist led movements in South and Central America that you find &#8220;militaristic?&#8221;<br />
</blockquote><br />
Is there some kind of christmas prize for this?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262010</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262010</guid>
		<description>&quot;In the Boston Sunday Globe of November 10, 1940, [US] Ambassador Joe Kennedy shared his opinion: &#039;Democracy is finished in England. It may be here.&#039; His controversial views would make national news -- and permanently damage his hopes for elected office.&quot;
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/kennedys/filmmore/ps_globe.html

He was shortly replaced as ambassador thereafter.

Listen to one of the Americans, Ed Murrow, who stayed behind in London to report on the course of the war in Europe - the link includes records of CBS broadcasts by Murrow as bombers were flying overhead:
http://www.otr.com/murrow.shtml

Pilots who came to Britain from overseas to fly fighters in the Battle of Britain:

Australia (32 pilots), Barbados (1), Belgium (28), Canada (112), Czechoslovakia (88), France (13), Ireland (10), Jamaica (1), Newfoundland (now a province of Canada) (1), New Zealand (127), Poland (145), Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) (3), South Africa (25), and the US (9).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;In the Boston Sunday Globe of November 10, 1940, [US] Ambassador Joe Kennedy shared his opinion: &#8216;Democracy is finished in England. It may be here.&#8217; His controversial views would make national news&#8212;and permanently damage his hopes for elected office.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/kennedys/filmmore/ps_globe.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/kennedys/filmmore/ps_globe.html</a></p>

	<p>He was shortly replaced as ambassador thereafter.</p>

	<p>Listen to one of the Americans, Ed Murrow, who stayed behind in London to report on the course of the war in Europe &#8211; the link includes records of <span class="caps">CBS</span> broadcasts by Murrow as bombers were flying overhead:<br />
<a href="http://www.otr.com/murrow.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.otr.com/murrow.shtml</a></p>

	<p>Pilots who came to Britain from overseas to fly fighters in the Battle of Britain:</p>

	<p>Australia (32 pilots), Barbados (1), Belgium (28), Canada (112), Czechoslovakia (88), France (13), Ireland (10), Jamaica (1), Newfoundland (now a province of Canada) (1), New Zealand (127), Poland (145), Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) (3), South Africa (25), and the <span class="caps">US </span>(9).</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262009</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262009</guid>
		<description>C&#039;mon - America was dragged into the European war on 11 December 1941 against its popular prevailing sentiment. See the account in William Shirer: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (chp.25) on sentiments in Congress after Japan&#039;s attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941:

&quot;My own impression in Washington at that moment was that it might be difficult for President Roosevelt to get Congress to declare war on Germany. There seemed to be a strong feeling in both Houses as well as in the Army and Navy that the country ought to concentrate its efforts on defeating Japan and not take on the additional burden of fighting Germany at the same time.&quot;

Britain had declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939. Germany declared war on America on 11 December 1941.

Iterrogated by the Soviets after WW2 Europe had ended, Von Rundstedt - CinC West in the German high command - was asked which was the decisive battle of the war. He responded, the Battle of Britain in the summer of 1940 and he was right. Had that battle for air supremacy over southern England been lost in 1940 or had Britain sued for peace - as Hitler believed  - there could have been no Normandy invasion in June 1944.

For a four part TV doc on the Battle of Britain, try: Spitfire Ace 1 of 4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3742264430725368338

Btw the Soviets signed a friendship treaty with Nazi Germany on the 28 September 1939 when Britain and France were already at war. [Norman Davies: Europe (OUP, 1996) p.1000].

The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941 came as a complete surprise to Stalin - despite warnings from incoming intelligence from Soviet agents which he dismissed as &quot;misinformation&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>C&#8217;mon &#8211; America was dragged into the European war on 11 December 1941 against its popular prevailing sentiment. See the account in William Shirer: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (chp.25) on sentiments in Congress after Japan&#8217;s attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941:</p>

	<p>&#8220;My own impression in Washington at that moment was that it might be difficult for President Roosevelt to get Congress to declare war on Germany. There seemed to be a strong feeling in both Houses as well as in the Army and Navy that the country ought to concentrate its efforts on defeating Japan and not take on the additional burden of fighting Germany at the same time.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Britain had declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939. Germany declared war on America on 11 December 1941.</p>

	<p>Iterrogated by the Soviets after <span class="caps">WW2 </span>Europe had ended, Von Rundstedt &#8211; CinC West in the German high command &#8211; was asked which was the decisive battle of the war. He responded, the Battle of Britain in the summer of 1940 and he was right. Had that battle for air supremacy over southern England been lost in 1940 or had Britain sued for peace &#8211; as Hitler believed  &#8211; there could have been no Normandy invasion in June 1944.</p>

	<p>For a four part TV doc on the Battle of Britain, try: Spitfire Ace 1 of 4<br />
<a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3742264430725368338" rel="nofollow">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3742264430725368338</a></p>

	<p>Btw the Soviets signed a friendship treaty with Nazi Germany on the 28 September 1939 when Britain and France were already at war. [Norman Davies: Europe (OUP, 1996) p.1000].</p>

	<p>The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941 came as a complete surprise to Stalin &#8211; despite warnings from incoming intelligence from Soviet agents which he dismissed as &#8220;misinformation&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: virgil xenophon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262006</link>
		<dc:creator>virgil xenophon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 04:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262006</guid>
		<description>MQ

I&#039;m confused. Are you trying to infer by labeling  &quot;the good war&quot; a &quot;founding myth&quot; that the Allied efforts in whole or in part were somehow unscrupulous/illegitimate and therefore a poisoned well from which to draw  valid precedents upon which to act in the future? And exactly what sort of &quot;militarism&quot; displayed by America or Britain during the cold war did/do you object? The part about forming and arming NATO to reject the Soviets and basing US troops in Europe? The role  America played in the Cuban missile crises? Or are all of your questions about the legitimacy of America&#039;s actions wrapped up in the war in Vietnam?  Or was it the resistance to Communist led movements in South and Central America that you find &quot;militaristic?&quot;  Or do you see other examples of American  &quot;militarism&quot; rooted in the &quot;founding myth?&quot;--like our present-day entanglements in the Middle East perhaps?  And what metrics do you use to describe/measure &quot;militarism?&quot; Seems like a pretty broad label tossed around pretty casually to me....Just askin&#039;,  that&#039;s all......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>MQ</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m confused. Are you trying to infer by labeling  &#8220;the good war&#8221; a &#8220;founding myth&#8221; that the Allied efforts in whole or in part were somehow unscrupulous/illegitimate and therefore a poisoned well from which to draw  valid precedents upon which to act in the future? And exactly what sort of &#8220;militarism&#8221; displayed by America or Britain during the cold war did/do you object? The part about forming and arming <span class="caps">NATO</span> to reject the Soviets and basing US troops in Europe? The role  America played in the Cuban missile crises? Or are all of your questions about the legitimacy of America&#8217;s actions wrapped up in the war in Vietnam?  Or was it the resistance to Communist led movements in South and Central America that you find &#8220;militaristic?&#8221;  Or do you see other examples of American  &#8220;militarism&#8221; rooted in the &#8220;founding myth?&#8221;&#8212;like our present-day entanglements in the Middle East perhaps?  And what metrics do you use to describe/measure &#8220;militarism?&#8221; Seems like a pretty broad label tossed around pretty casually to me&#8230;.Just askin&#8217;,  that&#8217;s all&#8230;&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-262000</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-262000</guid>
		<description>The film relates to Christmas 1940 - it revived memories as I was 2 then: 1941 is the year of the copyright when the film was released.

In September 1941, Charles Linbergh delivered this speech at Des Moines, Iowa:

&quot; . . The three most important groups who have been pressing this country [America] toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt administration. . .&quot;
http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The film relates to Christmas 1940 &#8211; it revived memories as I was 2 then: 1941 is the year of the copyright when the film was released.</p>

	<p>In September 1941, Charles Linbergh delivered this speech at Des Moines, Iowa:</p>

	<p>&#8221; . . The three most important groups who have been pressing this country [America] toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt administration. . .&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp</a></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: notedscholar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261998</link>
		<dc:creator>notedscholar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261998</guid>
		<description>Interesting. I wonder if Hitler saw this.

NS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting. I wonder if Hitler saw this.</p>

	<p>NS</p>
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		<title>By: Eszter Hargittai</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261991</link>
		<dc:creator>Eszter Hargittai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261991</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Actually, I correct myself. It was probably released in (January) 1941, so “Christmas Under Fire (1941)” is correct, but easily mis-understood.&lt;/i&gt;

So your suggestion is correct then, it is Christmas 1940?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Actually, I correct myself. It was probably released in (January) 1941, so &#8220;Christmas Under Fire (1941)&#8221; is correct, but easily mis-understood.</i></p>

	<p>So your suggestion is correct then, it is Christmas 1940?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261985</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261985</guid>
		<description>And by coincidence, I am listening to King&#039;s Chapel Choir at the moment...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And by coincidence, I am listening to King&#8217;s Chapel Choir at the moment&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MQ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261984</link>
		<dc:creator>MQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261984</guid>
		<description>It appears to be part of the propaganda campaign designed to get the U.S. into WWII, so it matters a lot whether it was December 1940 or December 1941.

Honestly, and don&#039;t take this the wrong way, I feel a lot more ambivalent about WWII propaganda than I used to. Post-Iraq I feel much more aware of the ways in which the &quot;good war&quot; served as a kind of founding myth to justify militarism during the Cold War and after. That may be more a U.S. than a British issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It appears to be part of the propaganda campaign designed to get the U.S. into <span class="caps">WWII</span>, so it matters a lot whether it was December 1940 or December 1941.</p>

	<p>Honestly, and don&#8217;t take this the wrong way, I feel a lot more ambivalent about <span class="caps">WWII</span> propaganda than I used to. Post-Iraq I feel much more aware of the ways in which the &#8220;good war&#8221; served as a kind of founding myth to justify militarism during the Cold War and after. That may be more a U.S. than a British issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Sumana Harihareswara</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261980</link>
		<dc:creator>Sumana Harihareswara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261980</guid>
		<description>The line about the storm being a true friend with no cash-and-carry rules is quite the jibe at the US.

And the visual tube station-stable analogy got to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The line about the storm being a true friend with no cash-and-carry rules is quite the jibe at the US.</p>

	<p>And the visual tube station-stable analogy got to me.</p>
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		<title>By: david tiley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261963</link>
		<dc:creator>david tiley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261963</guid>
		<description>Damn. Should have checked the link.  It is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a2031724.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, at http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a2031724.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Damn. Should have checked the link.  It is <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a2031724.shtml" rel="nofollow">here</a>, at <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a2031724.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a2031724.shtml</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: david tiley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261962</link>
		<dc:creator>david tiley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261962</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s all propaganda, of course, with a mocked up Xmas down in the tube. Ham fisted in its earnestness, obvious because its methods and rhetoric are so much less unctuous than the crap which we have read through the Bush presidency. 

But even with the stagey language and the set up children playing their war games, it works for me, too. As it should, probably.  And it does connect to real experience - a bit of googling &lt;a&gt;got me this&lt;/a&gt;, which is a real child&#039;s memory of the raid which blew her house up around December  23rd, 1940. 

&quot;...and the ARP man carried me along the front garden wall and hedgerow to a brick airraid shelter. It was a terrifying experience I remember - the sky was all orange and red, with flashing searchlights, gunfire and incendiary bombs falling all round us.&quot;

The 1941 date was provided by the BFI, and I guess it reflects their archiving conventions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s all propaganda, of course, with a mocked up Xmas down in the tube. Ham fisted in its earnestness, obvious because its methods and rhetoric are so much less unctuous than the crap which we have read through the Bush presidency.</p>

	<p>But even with the stagey language and the set up children playing their war games, it works for me, too. As it should, probably.  And it does connect to real experience &#8211; a bit of googling <a>got me this</a>, which is a real child&#8217;s memory of the raid which blew her house up around December  23rd, 1940.</p>

	<p>&#8220;&#8230;and the <span class="caps">ARP</span> man carried me along the front garden wall and hedgerow to a brick airraid shelter. It was a terrifying experience I remember &#8211; the sky was all orange and red, with flashing searchlights, gunfire and incendiary bombs falling all round us.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The 1941 date was provided by the <span class="caps">BFI</span>, and I guess it reflects their archiving conventions.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/23/christmas-1941/comment-page-1/#comment-261950</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 03:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=8933#comment-261950</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this, Henry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for this, Henry.</p>
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