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	<title>Comments on: Thunderer</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:51:42 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-263319</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-263319</guid>
		<description>Henry: this may be of interest.
http://www.sfawardswatch.com/?p=1341

Sorry I couldn&#039;t talk about it when your post first went up, but I had to wait for the official press release.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry: this may be of interest.<br />
<a href="http://www.sfawardswatch.com/?p=1341" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfawardswatch.com/?p=1341</a></p>

	<p>Sorry I couldn&#8217;t talk about it when your post first went up, but I had to wait for the official press release.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Gardner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-263077</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-263077</guid>
		<description>I went with a  school friend and his dad. The dad was an eccentric genius engineer. He made a lot of money and retired early to pursue his avocation: collecting first editions of the writings of the arctic explorers and retracing their journeys. This trek had something to do with Franklin, maybe. The experience was extraordinary and never miserable... except for the BI mosquitoes, which are built to penetrate caribou hide. The man drowned a few years later canoeing down a river to Hudson&#039;s Bay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I went with a  school friend and his dad. The dad was an eccentric genius engineer. He made a lot of money and retired early to pursue his avocation: collecting first editions of the writings of the arctic explorers and retracing their journeys. This trek had something to do with Franklin, maybe. The experience was extraordinary and never miserable&#8230; except for the BI mosquitoes, which are built to penetrate caribou hide. The man drowned a few years later canoeing down a river to Hudson&#8217;s Bay.</p>
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		<title>By: roac</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-263066</link>
		<dc:creator>roac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-263066</guid>
		<description>Jeez, how swell it must be in retrospect to have been taken to Baffin Island as an 11-year-old, however unpleasant the actual experience was.  Your parents were archaeologists?  Palaeontologists?  Biologists?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jeez, how swell it must be in retrospect to have been taken to Baffin Island as an 11-year-old, however unpleasant the actual experience was.  Your parents were archaeologists?  Palaeontologists?  Biologists?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Gardner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-263062</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-263062</guid>
		<description>roac...
But that cover was the one under which, at 11 years old, I encountered Tolkien. Curled in a sleeping bag in a tent on Baffin freaking Island during a 48 hour rainstorm. Everything about the cover is wrong, but it evokes the memory or ecstasy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>roac&#8230;<br />
But that cover was the one under which, at 11 years old, I encountered Tolkien. Curled in a sleeping bag in a tent on Baffin freaking Island during a 48 hour rainstorm. Everything about the cover is wrong, but it evokes the memory or ecstasy.</p>
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		<title>By: roac</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-263047</link>
		<dc:creator>roac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-263047</guid>
		<description>I heard the word &quot;Tolkien&quot; (like a cat and a can-opener) and thought it was worth posting this quote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot; I wrote . . . [the American publisher] expressing (with moderation) my dislike of the cover for [the first paperback of] &lt;i&gt;The Hobbit&lt;/i&gt;.  It was a short hasty note by hand, without a copy, but it was to this effect:  I think the cover ugly; but I recognize that the main object of a paperback cover is to attract purchasers, and I suppose that you are better judges of what is attractive in USA than I am.  I therefore will not enter into a debate about taste  -- (meaning though I did not say so: horrible colours and foul lettering) -- but I must ask this about the vignette: what has it got to do with the story?  Where is this place?  Why a lion and emus?  And what is the thing in the foreground with the pink bulbs? . . .&quot;

 * * * 

&quot;[A representative of the publishers] rang me up.   I had a longish conversation; but she seemed to me impermeable.  I should judge that all she wanted was that I should recant, be a good boy and react favorably.  When I made the above points again, her voice rose several tones and she cried:  &quot;But the man hadn&#039;t TIME to read the book.&quot; . . . With regard to the pink bulbs she said as if to one of complete obtusity: &quot;they are meant to suggest a Chistmas Tree.&quot;  Why is such a woman let loose?  I begin to feel that I am shut up in a madhouse.&quot;

He was talking about &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.librarything.com/work/3206242/covers/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the second one here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I heard the word &#8220;Tolkien&#8221; (like a cat and a can-opener) and thought it was worth posting this quote:</p>

	<p><blockquote>&#8221; I wrote . . . [the American publisher] expressing (with moderation) my dislike of the cover for [the first paperback of] <i>The Hobbit</i>.  It was a short hasty note by hand, without a copy, but it was to this effect:  I think the cover ugly; but I recognize that the main object of a paperback cover is to attract purchasers, and I suppose that you are better judges of what is attractive in <span class="caps">USA</span> than I am.  I therefore will not enter into a debate about taste &#8212;(meaning though I did not say so: horrible colours and foul lettering)&#8212;but I must ask this about the vignette: what has it got to do with the story?  Where is this place?  Why a lion and emus?  And what is the thing in the foreground with the pink bulbs? . . .&#8221;</blockquote></p>

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		<li>* *</li>
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	<p>&#8220;[A representative of the publishers] rang me up.   I had a longish conversation; but she seemed to me impermeable.  I should judge that all she wanted was that I should recant, be a good boy and react favorably.  When I made the above points again, her voice rose several tones and she cried:  &#8220;But the man hadn&#8217;t <span class="caps">TIME</span> to read the book.&#8221; . . . With regard to the pink bulbs she said as if to one of complete obtusity: &#8220;they are meant to suggest a Chistmas Tree.&#8221;  Why is such a woman let loose?  I begin to feel that I am shut up in a madhouse.&#8221;</p>

	<p>He was talking about <a HREF="http://www.librarything.com/work/3206242/covers/" rel="nofollow">the second one here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262977</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262977</guid>
		<description>Felix:

Psst, plug &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Gears-City-Felix-Gilman/dp/0553806777/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1231461360&amp;sr=8-2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the sequel&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Felix:</p>

	<p>Psst, plug <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Gears-City-Felix-Gilman/dp/0553806777/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1231461360&#038;sr=8-2" rel="nofollow">the sequel</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: felix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262975</link>
		<dc:creator>felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262975</guid>
		<description>oh my

thanks, Henry

hello unfoggers, Cheryl, all</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>oh my</p>

	<p>thanks, Henry</p>

	<p>hello unfoggers, Cheryl, all</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262931</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262931</guid>
		<description>Patrick:

I confess to having complained about the cover, but only because it highlighted a white-skinned minor character, the main viewpoint character being dark-skinned.

Henry:

I&#039;m interested to know what it would take for a blogger to be someone that you &quot;really trust&quot;. There is a huge amount of book-blogging that goes on these days, and one of the reasons I don&#039;t write proper reviews any more is that no one seems to trust anything that anyone says, unless they actually know the blogger, or are a fan of the blogger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Patrick:</p>

	<p>I confess to having complained about the cover, but only because it highlighted a white-skinned minor character, the main viewpoint character being dark-skinned.</p>

	<p>Henry:</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m interested to know what it would take for a blogger to be someone that you &#8220;really trust&#8221;. There is a huge amount of book-blogging that goes on these days, and one of the reasons I don&#8217;t write proper reviews any more is that no one seems to trust anything that anyone says, unless they actually know the blogger, or are a fan of the blogger.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262930</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262930</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid I reacted exactly like LB @14. I shall order it this weekend, since we&#039;re coming to the end of the Christmas book box. So that&#039;s two sales down to Henry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m afraid I reacted exactly like <span class="caps">LB </span>@14. I shall order it this weekend, since we&#8217;re coming to the end of the Christmas book box. So that&#8217;s two sales down to Henry.</p>
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		<title>By: Jackmormon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262916</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackmormon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262916</guid>
		<description>The mass market paperback version of &lt;i&gt;Thunderer&lt;/i&gt; is a much better fit than was the hardcover. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw_0_12?url=search-alias%3Daps&amp;field-keywords=felix+gilman+thunderer&amp;x=0&amp;y=0&amp;sprefix=felix+gilman&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Amazon link&lt;/a&gt;.) That flying jester lad in the hardcover image was rather unfortunately twee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The mass market paperback version of <i>Thunderer</i> is a much better fit than was the hardcover. (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw_0_12?url=search-alias%3Daps&#038;field-keywords=felix+gilman+thunderer&#038;x=0&#038;y=0&#038;sprefix=felix+gilman" rel="nofollow">Amazon link</a>.) That flying jester lad in the hardcover image was rather unfortunately twee.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262906</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262906</guid>
		<description>[above comment was cross-posted with Lizardbreath]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[above comment was cross-posted with Lizardbreath]</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262905</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262905</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t realised that Gilman was a sometime member of the unfoggedtariat - more reason to like him. Patrick - this is fair enough (and the description of fandom is great) - but the point I was trying to make, if not very well, was that I had received none of the signals that I associate with a good, intelligent book - it hadn&#039;t gotten any discussion in the places I usually look for it. This was partly my fault (I don&#039;t follow Jeff VdM&#039;s blog), but it also maybe reflects some deficiencies in the web of author-blogs etc that serve as a partial substitute for the kinds of conversations you describe. Unless the blogger is someone whom I really trust, I tend to discount book recommendations heavily, because the conversation is a public one. This means that there are both strong incentives towards logrolling (cliques of authors chatting each other&#039;s work up), and disincentives to honesty about the crap (you don&#039;t necessarily want to piss somebody else off by being rude about his/her book, because he/she can retaliate in kind). I imagine that you get straighter talk at cons etc - but since I don&#039;t really attend them (even CapClave I haven&#039;t gone to in a couple of years b.c. of kids) I don&#039;t get it.

 And as noted above in re: Sarah Monette, I have no problem whatsoever in picking up a book with an embarrassing cover  as long as I have some sort of credible signal that the contents are good. Lizardbreath, if I understand her right, is in a different situation - where you have a social acquaintance with someone whose work you suspect you may not like, you may reasonably want to avoid entering into conversation with that person about that work. And here, given the awkwardness that can result if you do read it and hate it, it may be that even a weak negative signal is sufficient to turn you off, in the absence of any positive one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I hadn&#8217;t realised that Gilman was a sometime member of the unfoggedtariat &#8211; more reason to like him. Patrick &#8211; this is fair enough (and the description of fandom is great) &#8211; but the point I was trying to make, if not very well, was that I had received none of the signals that I associate with a good, intelligent book &#8211; it hadn&#8217;t gotten any discussion in the places I usually look for it. This was partly my fault (I don&#8217;t follow Jeff VdM&#8217;s blog), but it also maybe reflects some deficiencies in the web of author-blogs etc that serve as a partial substitute for the kinds of conversations you describe. Unless the blogger is someone whom I really trust, I tend to discount book recommendations heavily, because the conversation is a public one. This means that there are both strong incentives towards logrolling (cliques of authors chatting each other&#8217;s work up), and disincentives to honesty about the crap (you don&#8217;t necessarily want to piss somebody else off by being rude about his/her book, because he/she can retaliate in kind). I imagine that you get straighter talk at cons etc &#8211; but since I don&#8217;t really attend them (even CapClave I haven&#8217;t gone to in a couple of years b.c. of kids) I don&#8217;t get it.</p>

	<p>And as noted above in re: Sarah Monette, I have no problem whatsoever in picking up a book with an embarrassing cover  as long as I have some sort of credible signal that the contents are good. Lizardbreath, if I understand her right, is in a different situation &#8211; where you have a social acquaintance with someone whose work you suspect you may not like, you may reasonably want to avoid entering into conversation with that person about that work. And here, given the awkwardness that can result if you do read it and hate it, it may be that even a weak negative signal is sufficient to turn you off, in the absence of any positive one.</p>
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		<title>By: LizardBreath</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262902</link>
		<dc:creator>LizardBreath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262902</guid>
		<description>You know, that&#039;s right, and I am ashamed of myself, but some of the codes are pretty reliable.  The problem with the Thunderer cover (and I can&#039;t remember it specifically, I just remember my reaction to it) wasn&#039;t that it failed to convey &quot;I am a book with literary merit&quot; -- I don&#039;t expect that.  It was that it (at least to me) squarely conveyed &quot;I am a book aimed squarely at a particular niche of the fantasy genre&quot;, and it&#039;s one that leaves me cold. (I should note that I&#039;m not above reading stuff with no particular pretentions to literary merit, I read buckets of it.  And I like lots of fantasy.  That particular subgenre is one that just doesn&#039;t work for me.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You know, that&#8217;s right, and I am ashamed of myself, but some of the codes are pretty reliable.  The problem with the Thunderer cover (and I can&#8217;t remember it specifically, I just remember my reaction to it) wasn&#8217;t that it failed to convey &#8220;I am a book with literary merit&#8221;&#8212;I don&#8217;t expect that.  It was that it (at least to me) squarely conveyed &#8220;I am a book aimed squarely at a particular niche of the fantasy genre&#8221;, and it&#8217;s one that leaves me cold. (I should note that I&#8217;m not above reading stuff with no particular pretentions to literary merit, I read buckets of it.  And I like lots of fantasy.  That particular subgenre is one that just doesn&#8217;t work for me.)</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Nielsen Hayden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262887</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Nielsen Hayden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262887</guid>
		<description>The fact that publishers and booksellers have figured out a set of packaging tropes that seem to consistently work to identify some subsets of SF and fantasy to their potential audiences does not mean that we&#039;ve worked out tropes that successfully identify all subsets.  In particular, we&#039;re still pretty much at sea when it comes to many of the nuances of non-generic fantasy.

Unfortunately, the fact that we&#039;ve managed to successfully target our packaging in some respects has created the expectation in many readers, &lt;em&gt;particularly more sophisticated readers,&lt;/em&gt; that SF and fantasy cover packages are overall reliable.  Thus LizardBreath&#039;s comment above, about walking away from a book that LB might have otherwise checked out because &quot;it looked exactly like standardized post-Tolkien ripoff.&quot;  

The remarkably thing is that for much of the history of modern SF and fantasy, this sort of thing rarely happened, because clued-in readers simply assumed that all the covers were misleading tosh.  The basic project around which modern SF fandom organized itself was readers informing one another which of the publications-that-looked-like-crap were in fact crap, and which ones were actually worth reading.  There were good cover artists and well-designed books and magazines, but you couldn&#039;t count on them correlating with worthwhile fiction.  Everybody knew that.  Nowadays, the discourse surrounding the question of which SF and fantasy intelligent people should read seems to be half arguments and complaints about the goddamn covers. 

I don&#039;t mind discussing the goddamn covers, and I&#039;m generally delighted when we actually do manage to expand the vocubulary by which publishers can send accurate signals to more precisely-understood subsets of the world of readers, but for cripes&#039; sake, modern readers sometimes have unrealistic expectations of being spoon-fed perfect signals.  There&#039;s a reason &quot;you can&#039;t judge a book by its cover&quot; is copybook wisdom.  If you only ever try books whose cover packages perfectly cater to your personal aesthetic, you may have a satisfactory life, but you will certainly miss a metric ton of genre fiction you would have otherwise enjoyed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The fact that publishers and booksellers have figured out a set of packaging tropes that seem to consistently work to identify some subsets of SF and fantasy to their potential audiences does not mean that we&#8217;ve worked out tropes that successfully identify all subsets.  In particular, we&#8217;re still pretty much at sea when it comes to many of the nuances of non-generic fantasy.</p>

	<p>Unfortunately, the fact that we&#8217;ve managed to successfully target our packaging in some respects has created the expectation in many readers, <em>particularly more sophisticated readers,</em> that SF and fantasy cover packages are overall reliable.  Thus LizardBreath&#8217;s comment above, about walking away from a book that LB might have otherwise checked out because &#8220;it looked exactly like standardized post-Tolkien ripoff.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The remarkably thing is that for much of the history of modern SF and fantasy, this sort of thing rarely happened, because clued-in readers simply assumed that all the covers were misleading tosh.  The basic project around which modern SF fandom organized itself was readers informing one another which of the publications-that-looked-like-crap were in fact crap, and which ones were actually worth reading.  There were good cover artists and well-designed books and magazines, but you couldn&#8217;t count on them correlating with worthwhile fiction.  Everybody knew that.  Nowadays, the discourse surrounding the question of which SF and fantasy intelligent people should read seems to be half arguments and complaints about the goddamn covers.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t mind discussing the goddamn covers, and I&#8217;m generally delighted when we actually do manage to expand the vocubulary by which publishers can send accurate signals to more precisely-understood subsets of the world of readers, but for cripes&#8217; sake, modern readers sometimes have unrealistic expectations of being spoon-fed perfect signals.  There&#8217;s a reason &#8220;you can&#8217;t judge a book by its cover&#8221; is copybook wisdom.  If you only ever try books whose cover packages perfectly cater to your personal aesthetic, you may have a satisfactory life, but you will certainly miss a metric ton of genre fiction you would have otherwise enjoyed.</p>
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		<title>By: LizardBreath</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/07/thunderer/comment-page-1/#comment-262881</link>
		<dc:creator>LizardBreath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9098#comment-262881</guid>
		<description>Damn -- this is the guy who commented on Unfogged?  I am ashamed of myself -- he mentioned the book, I looked at it online and and it looked exactly like &#039;standardized post-Tolkein ripoff&#039; and I didn&#039;t read it because I thought, given some risk that I&#039;d find myself interacting with the author again, &#039;I hadn&#039;t found time to read it&#039; would sound better than &#039;Um, the paper was high quality&#039;.  I must go buy a copy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Damn&#8212;this is the guy who commented on Unfogged?  I am ashamed of myself&#8212;he mentioned the book, I looked at it online and and it looked exactly like &#8216;standardized post-Tolkein ripoff&#8217; and I didn&#8217;t read it because I thought, given some risk that I&#8217;d find myself interacting with the author again, &#8216;I hadn&#8217;t found time to read it&#8217; would sound better than &#8216;Um, the paper was high quality&#8217;.  I must go buy a copy.</p>
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