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	<title>Comments on: Change.gov against Obama</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Omega Centauri</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263504</link>
		<dc:creator>Omega Centauri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 05:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263504</guid>
		<description>I see one potentially strong defense. It follows from the way I think (I hope not delusionally) that Obama is probably thinking. And that is that he has a mental list of progressive things that would be great to accomplish, which doesn&#039;t differ greatly from my own. But, I also presume, that he understands that he can&#039;t just aggressively push through this list. He will be president -not absolute dictator for life. I assume that he is thinking that he has to be very careful in choosing which (political) battles he can fight. In which order he should fight them, and what circumstances would be most advantageous for the advancement of which items. In the few communications I&#039;ve sent (I don&#039;t know if change.gov goes to the bit bucket, or if someone of any importance actually reads anything I&#039;ve sent in, thats the frustrating part of it). In any case when breaching a subject that he has clearly been avoiding (or perhaps doesn&#039;t even care about ), I acknowledge that I&#039;m sure he has his own strategic thinking for the order in which to attack the various progressive items on our list.

   This of course could suggest a pretty robust defense tactic for him. I&#039;m planning to tackle X, but I think it is too risky breech the subject just now. I&#039;m carefully preparing the battleground so as to maximize my chance of success. I intend to attack at the most opportune moment!...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I see one potentially strong defense. It follows from the way I think (I hope not delusionally) that Obama is probably thinking. And that is that he has a mental list of progressive things that would be great to accomplish, which doesn&#8217;t differ greatly from my own. But, I also presume, that he understands that he can&#8217;t just aggressively push through this list. He will be president -not absolute dictator for life. I assume that he is thinking that he has to be very careful in choosing which (political) battles he can fight. In which order he should fight them, and what circumstances would be most advantageous for the advancement of which items. In the few communications I&#8217;ve sent (I don&#8217;t know if change.gov goes to the bit bucket, or if someone of any importance actually reads anything I&#8217;ve sent in, thats the frustrating part of it). In any case when breaching a subject that he has clearly been avoiding (or perhaps doesn&#8217;t even care about ), I acknowledge that I&#8217;m sure he has his own strategic thinking for the order in which to attack the various progressive items on our list.</p>

	<p>This of course could suggest a pretty robust defense tactic for him. I&#8217;m planning to tackle X, but I think it is too risky breech the subject just now. I&#8217;m carefully preparing the battleground so as to maximize my chance of success. I intend to attack at the most opportune moment!&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Intelitary Milligence</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263296</link>
		<dc:creator>Intelitary Milligence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263296</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s pathetic to give Obama credit for creating an online platform that has existed since the days of slashdot and Internet Relay Chat.

I&#039;m not talking about the technology. That&#039;s even older. We&#039;ve had the guns for a long time, just not known how to use them.

I&#039;m talking about the ability of individuals to trust the interface (from I don&#039;t want to date online to SHE SAID WHAT? ON MYSPACE). Thank the clickity-click trigger happy chatterbugs for validating the platform as average people compatible. It ain&#039;t virtual no more.

That hurdle has been dealt with easily by most people who give a damn about TEH SITUATION. Passing that hurdle makes the new opportunities as legitimate (or as false as the case maybe) as the traditional modes and they traditional modes are finding new life as virtuality loses its novelty and Internet means meet people fast.

I&#039;m generally skeptical (voted Baldwin) but let&#039;s give credit where it&#039;s due: WE DID IT before he SAID WE CAN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it&#8217;s pathetic to give Obama credit for creating an online platform that has existed since the days of slashdot and Internet Relay Chat.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not talking about the technology. That&#8217;s even older. We&#8217;ve had the guns for a long time, just not known how to use them.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m talking about the ability of individuals to trust the interface (from I don&#8217;t want to date online to <span class="caps">SHE SAID WHAT</span>? ON <span class="caps">MYSPACE</span>). Thank the clickity-click trigger happy chatterbugs for validating the platform as average people compatible. It ain&#8217;t virtual no more.</p>

	<p>That hurdle has been dealt with easily by most people who give a damn about <span class="caps">TEH SITUATION</span>. Passing that hurdle makes the new opportunities as legitimate (or as false as the case maybe) as the traditional modes and they traditional modes are finding new life as virtuality loses its novelty and Internet means meet people fast.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m generally skeptical (voted Baldwin) but let&#8217;s give credit where it&#8217;s due: <span class="caps">WE DID IT</span> before he <span class="caps">SAID WE CAN</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Amadeus Guy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263287</link>
		<dc:creator>Amadeus Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263287</guid>
		<description>When do we get to see the follow through on the subpoena for Karl Rove ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When do we get to see the follow through on the subpoena for Karl Rove ?</p>
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		<title>By: john devlin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263134</link>
		<dc:creator>john devlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263134</guid>
		<description>if Obama appoints Blair and Brennan to intell the progrssives and center lefties should scream long and loud.  Blair is a war criminal who has already lied to congress (see DemocracyNow.org January 9) and Brennan supports rendition and torture.  Obama&#039;s silence on Gaza and the out of control Israel government represent the worst of the US and Israel.  Be forewarned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>if Obama appoints Blair and Brennan to intell the progrssives and center lefties should scream long and loud.  Blair is a war criminal who has already lied to congress (see DemocracyNow.org January 9) and Brennan supports rendition and torture.  Obama&#8217;s silence on Gaza and the out of control Israel government represent the worst of the US and Israel.  Be forewarned.</p>
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		<title>By: Naadir Jeewa</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263128</link>
		<dc:creator>Naadir Jeewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263128</guid>
		<description>How does the Obama website compare to say, the 10 Downing Street e-petition site?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How does the Obama website compare to say, the 10 Downing Street e-petition site?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263116</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263116</guid>
		<description>Henry, well my bet is that they have now established two precedents that will become standard:

1) If they feel they have responded to a question adequately, they need not address it again, no matter how many people ask.

2) They don&#039;t have to answer the questions, just respond. Biden&#039;s response was clearly not an answer, but they are pushing it as sufficient.

I think they may be more to your general argument that this example suggests. But I think &quot;MyBarackObama&quot; will remain &quot;HisBarackObama&quot; in reality. I think more important is furthering the reach of the liberal blogosphere, which seems to have plateaued. The mainstream media, especially papers, seems headed for hard times and there could be an opening here. I&#039;m more skeptical of anything actually controlled by the administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, well my bet is that they have now established two precedents that will become standard:</p>

	<p>1) If they feel they have responded to a question adequately, they need not address it again, no matter how many people ask.</p>

	<p>2) They don&#8217;t have to answer the questions, just respond. Biden&#8217;s response was clearly not an answer, but they are pushing it as sufficient.</p>

	<p>I think they may be more to your general argument that this example suggests. But I think &#8220;MyBarackObama&#8221; will remain &#8220;HisBarackObama&#8221; in reality. I think more important is furthering the reach of the liberal blogosphere, which seems to have plateaued. The mainstream media, especially papers, seems headed for hard times and there could be an opening here. I&#8217;m more skeptical of anything actually controlled by the administration.</p>
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		<title>By: Miriam</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263101</link>
		<dc:creator>Miriam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263101</guid>
		<description>Regardless, I went to change.gov and cast my vote for Fertik&#039;s question because I really don&#039;t see any other way of communicating with the administration. 

But I also wrote to my representatives in Congress because Congress can initiate investigations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Regardless, I went to change.gov and cast my vote for Fertik&#8217;s question because I really don&#8217;t see any other way of communicating with the administration.</p>

	<p>But I also wrote to my representatives in Congress because Congress can initiate investigations.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263100</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263100</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Now, whenever someone makes a claim like (my emphasis) “where [minor partisan press] genuinely forced people like [politician] to …”, this warrants skepticism, not gospel gullibility.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Sure.  In TPM&#039;s case they managed to assemble &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/conscience.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this list&lt;/a&gt; of Republicans and their stands on Social Security phase-out, in many cases as a result of reader calls to constituent offices.

So yeah, TPM in many cases forced Republicans to go on record regarding their positions, though not because of the force of their writing but because readers were willing to bug their reps about it.  Changes to Social Security were unpopular and weasels were trying to walk the line between ideological conformity and doing what their constituents believed was good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Now, whenever someone makes a claim like (my emphasis) &#8220;where [minor partisan press] genuinely forced people like [politician] to &#8230;&#8221;, this warrants skepticism, not gospel gullibility.</blockquote> Sure.  In <span class="caps">TPM</span>&#8217;s case they managed to assemble <a href="http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/conscience.php" rel="nofollow">this list</a> of Republicans and their stands on Social Security phase-out, in many cases as a result of reader calls to constituent offices.</p>

	<p>So yeah, <span class="caps">TPM</span> in many cases forced Republicans to go on record regarding their positions, though not because of the force of their writing but because readers were willing to bug their reps about it.  Changes to Social Security were unpopular and weasels were trying to walk the line between ideological conformity and doing what their constituents believed was good.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263099</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263099</guid>
		<description>Seth - after prosecuting this rather fruitless argument with you over the last couple of years, it honestly seems to me that it is you who is in principle incapable of being convinced by evidence rather than me. As best as I can see you have three sort-of arguments. 

(1) The argument by analogy. Claim _x_ looks (if you squint at it in the right light) rather like the claims being made by people who I think are silicon snake oil merchants. Therefore (without having to look at the specifics of the argument or the case) I can dismiss it as being _ipso facto_ worthless.

(2) The zero sum argument. When somebody wins, someone somewhere else must be losing, and vice versa. It&#039;s a mathematical certainty (proof available from author on request). 

(3) The &#039;more than my job&#039;s worth&#039; argument. A corollary to (1) to the effect that if I told you what was really going on, They&#039;d get me and They&#039;d get me good.

Rinse and repeat as often as necessary.

The problem isn&#039;t that you are necessarily wrong - in plenty of situations I am sure you are right. Lots of people are snake oil merchants of one sort or another, and Internet/e-commerce appear to be inflicted with an unusual concentration of them. Lots of situations are indeed zero sum games. But not all. And there are real issues with applying a one-size-fits-all explanation to everything that seems vaguely to resemble a set of situations that you have had reason to become embittered over. Most obviously, this &#039;explanation&#039; becomes less an argument or framework than a means of constructing a bulwark against having to engage with possible confounding evidence or change your mind about things. I honestly find this a bit of a tragedy, because you&#039;re  clearly smart and articulate. But your output on this seems to me to be less a set of arguments than a set of semi-autonomous reflexes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seth &#8211; after prosecuting this rather fruitless argument with you over the last couple of years, it honestly seems to me that it is you who is in principle incapable of being convinced by evidence rather than me. As best as I can see you have three sort-of arguments.</p>

	<p>(1) The argument by analogy. Claim <em>x</em> looks (if you squint at it in the right light) rather like the claims being made by people who I think are silicon snake oil merchants. Therefore (without having to look at the specifics of the argument or the case) I can dismiss it as being <em>ipso facto</em> worthless.</p>

	<p>(2) The zero sum argument. When somebody wins, someone somewhere else must be losing, and vice versa. It&#8217;s a mathematical certainty (proof available from author on request).</p>

	<p>(3) The &#8216;more than my job&#8217;s worth&#8217; argument. A corollary to (1) to the effect that if I told you what was really going on, They&#8217;d get me and They&#8217;d get me good.</p>

	<p>Rinse and repeat as often as necessary.</p>

	<p>The problem isn&#8217;t that you are necessarily wrong &#8211; in plenty of situations I am sure you are right. Lots of people are snake oil merchants of one sort or another, and Internet/e-commerce appear to be inflicted with an unusual concentration of them. Lots of situations are indeed zero sum games. But not all. And there are real issues with applying a one-size-fits-all explanation to everything that seems vaguely to resemble a set of situations that you have had reason to become embittered over. Most obviously, this &#8216;explanation&#8217; becomes less an argument or framework than a means of constructing a bulwark against having to engage with possible confounding evidence or change your mind about things. I honestly find this a bit of a tragedy, because you&#8217;re  clearly smart and articulate. But your output on this seems to me to be less a set of arguments than a set of semi-autonomous reflexes.</p>
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		<title>By: soullite</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263097</link>
		<dc:creator>soullite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263097</guid>
		<description>Some people sound like the Democratic Party circa 1999 saying Liberals didn&#039;t matter because Impeachment failed (and liberals had his back) and Clinton was re-elected in 96 despite all the belly aching.

 And then 2000 happened, and the left-wing 3rd party challenger garned 2.5 million more votes than he was ever able to get before or since, and tossed the election to GWB. 

 You ignore your base at your own peril. You don&#039;t need most, or even many, of them to defect to cause a loss. You really only need some. That&#039;s why they are called your &#039;base&#039;, if you lose even a little bit everything else comes toppling down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Some people sound like the Democratic Party circa 1999 saying Liberals didn&#8217;t matter because Impeachment failed (and liberals had his back) and Clinton was re-elected in 96 despite all the belly aching.</p>

	<p>And then 2000 happened, and the left-wing 3rd party challenger garned 2.5 million more votes than he was ever able to get before or since, and tossed the election to <span class="caps">GWB</span>.</p>

	<p>You ignore your base at your own peril. You don&#8217;t need most, or even many, of them to defect to cause a loss. You really only need some. That&#8217;s why they are called your &#8216;base&#8217;, if you lose even a little bit everything else comes toppling down.</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263095</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263095</guid>
		<description>Henry, thanks for your patience if I am indeed missing the point. Though I&#039;m afraid what it is is I&#039;m being too elliptical about my own contention.
More than happy to be surprised but it looks very much as though Obama&#039;s team is likely to repay his ostensible base the way GWBush and Co.  did his. By smiling and making demographically-appropriate telegenic noises, while said base gets royally screwed in unexpected ways.
There&#039;s a symmetry in the two figures that&#039;s deeply disturbing to some of us. And a suspicious continuity behind the scenes.
Obama&#039;s the anti-Bush, no doubt about it.  Just maybe a little too precisely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, thanks for your patience if I am indeed missing the point. Though I&#8217;m afraid what it is is I&#8217;m being too elliptical about my own contention.<br />
More than happy to be surprised but it looks very much as though Obama&#8217;s team is likely to repay his ostensible base the way GWBush and Co.  did his. By smiling and making demographically-appropriate telegenic noises, while said base gets royally screwed in unexpected ways.<br />
There&#8217;s a symmetry in the two figures that&#8217;s deeply disturbing to some of us. And a suspicious continuity behind the scenes.<br />
Obama&#8217;s the anti-Bush, no doubt about it.  Just maybe a little too precisely.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263094</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263094</guid>
		<description>Henry: Yes, I know about the Social Security debate in general, mostly from the angle of hearing a lot of nonsense about the-stock-market-returns-X%-PONZI-SCHEME and the debate being a case study of mathematical lying for the benefit of plutocrats. Now, whenever someone makes a claim like (my emphasis) &quot;where [minor partisan press] &lt;em&gt;genuinely forced&lt;/em&gt; people like [politician] to ...&quot;, this warrants skepticism, not gospel gullibility. Especially since so many such claims turn out to be puffery or propaganda.

Then of course come the strawmen - &quot;Given the rather extraordinary lengths to which political and other organizations actually go in order to control agendas and prevent people who they don’t want to speak from raising awkward questions, I rather think that the onus is on you to demonstrate why all these efforts and counterefforts are misguided&quot;
Did I ever say anything like that, ALL THESE EFFORTS? You&#039;re doing a familiar two-step, of making claims that can be read very broadly, &quot;But the creation of an open architecture, where others can bring inconvenient issues up – and very likely keep on bringing them up – makes it substantially more difficult for them to maintain control of the conversation.&quot; - and then retreating to a reading where any trivial meaning is taken as proving the statement.

Which bring us to &quot;but the manifest evasion invites another, reformulated question for next time around ...&quot;
Remember one of my laments: No reasonable evidence will ever be accepted as refutation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry: Yes, I know about the Social Security debate in general, mostly from the angle of hearing a lot of nonsense about the-stock-market-returns-X%-PONZI-SCHEME and the debate being a case study of mathematical lying for the benefit of plutocrats. Now, whenever someone makes a claim like (my emphasis) &#8220;where [minor partisan press] <em>genuinely forced</em> people like [politician] to &#8230;&#8221;, this warrants skepticism, not gospel gullibility. Especially since so many such claims turn out to be puffery or propaganda.</p>

	<p>Then of course come the strawmen &#8211; &#8220;Given the rather extraordinary lengths to which political and other organizations actually go in order to control agendas and prevent people who they don&#8217;t want to speak from raising awkward questions, I rather think that the onus is on you to demonstrate why all these efforts and counterefforts are misguided&#8221;<br />
Did I ever say anything like that, <span class="caps">ALL THESE EFFORTS</span>? You&#8217;re doing a familiar two-step, of making claims that can be read very broadly, &#8220;But the creation of an open architecture, where others can bring inconvenient issues up &#8211; and very likely keep on bringing them up &#8211; makes it substantially more difficult for them to maintain control of the conversation.&#8221; &#8211; and then retreating to a reading where any trivial meaning is taken as proving the statement.</p>

	<p>Which bring us to &#8220;but the manifest evasion invites another, reformulated question for next time around &#8230;&#8221;<br />
Remember one of my laments: No reasonable evidence will ever be accepted as refutation.</p>
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		<title>By: beezer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263093</link>
		<dc:creator>beezer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263093</guid>
		<description>A great discussion.  But where will it rank with the 11 million new unemployed?  Hope there&#039;s at least an equal discussion somewhere about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A great discussion.  But where will it rank with the 11 million new unemployed?  Hope there&#8217;s at least an equal discussion somewhere about that.</p>
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		<title>By: The Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263092</link>
		<dc:creator>The Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263092</guid>
		<description>The incoming administration is answering these questions just like they answer hard questions from the press--evasively. I don&#039;t think they&#039;ve yet grasped that they&#039;re not propagandizing the press any more--they&#039;re talking directly to the people who helped elect them. They can deceive through an intermediary, and a lot of people will brush it off. But when they deceive the public directly, that raises a lot more anger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The incoming administration is answering these questions just like they answer hard questions from the press&#8212;evasively. I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;ve yet grasped that they&#8217;re not propagandizing the press any more&#8212;they&#8217;re talking directly to the people who helped elect them. They can deceive through an intermediary, and a lot of people will brush it off. But when they deceive the public directly, that raises a lot more anger.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/09/changegov-against-obama/comment-page-1/#comment-263091</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9133#comment-263091</guid>
		<description>So Aaron - any update on yr paper?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So Aaron &#8211; any update on yr paper?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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