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	<title>Comments on: Are sockpuppeteers computer criminals?</title>
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	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263845</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263845</guid>
		<description>Raven, Agreed that due process is more important than getting every nut.  I just was under the impression involuntary incarceration of the insane was still possible if there was good evidence they were dangerous, and it would seem that Drew would pass that test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Raven, Agreed that due process is more important than getting every nut.  I just was under the impression involuntary incarceration of the insane was still possible if there was good evidence they were dangerous, and it would seem that Drew would pass that test.</p>
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		<title>By: The Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263728</link>
		<dc:creator>The Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263728</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why is it not possible to simply lock Lori Drew up as a nut?&quot;

Because it&#039;s very difficult to lock up anyone as a &quot;nut&quot; in in the USA, due to extensive abuse of the practice in the period 1900-1970, often directed at women. In Oregon it is not possible at all. It is probably just as well the state or family cannot arbitrarily deprive anyone of their freedom, but I do wish it was possible to do so after a trial of some sort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Why is it not possible to simply lock Lori Drew up as a nut?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Because it&#8217;s very difficult to lock up anyone as a &#8220;nut&#8221; in in the <span class="caps">USA</span>, due to extensive abuse of the practice in the period 1900-1970, often directed at women. In Oregon it is not possible at all. It is probably just as well the state or family cannot arbitrarily deprive anyone of their freedom, but I do wish it was possible to do so after a trial of some sort.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263712</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 04:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263712</guid>
		<description>Well, I misspoke of course, I should have said rigidly fundamentalist countries -- and I was not talking of the head scarf, but the full head-to-toe burgah (?), whose name I had forgotten and was too lazy to look up. 

I am sure about masks having been banned in Elizabethan England -- and I believe it is still against the law to wear them routinely, but I may be wrong. Obviously, this is something that is going to be enforced in a sporadic manner.

I believe that changing ones&#039; &quot;handle&quot; name or password periodically is not necessarily something done with malicious intent, but rather for reasons of safety. It is not the same as posting flattering comments one one&#039;s own blog under an assumed name -- or writing a book review of one&#039;s own work while pretending to be someone else. 

In fact until recently in the US, ordinary citizens have always had the right to change their names and start over, no questions asked. This is the country of fresh beginnings, after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, I misspoke of course, I should have said rigidly fundamentalist countries&#8212;and I was not talking of the head scarf, but the full head-to-toe burgah (?), whose name I had forgotten and was too lazy to look up.</p>

	<p>I am sure about masks having been banned in Elizabethan England&#8212;and I believe it is still against the law to wear them routinely, but I may be wrong. Obviously, this is something that is going to be enforced in a sporadic manner.</p>

	<p>I believe that changing ones&#8217; &#8220;handle&#8221; name or password periodically is not necessarily something done with malicious intent, but rather for reasons of safety. It is not the same as posting flattering comments one one&#8217;s own blog under an assumed name&#8212;or writing a book review of one&#8217;s own work while pretending to be someone else.</p>

	<p>In fact until recently in the US, ordinary citizens have always had the right to change their names and start over, no questions asked. This is the country of fresh beginnings, after all.</p>
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		<title>By: praisegod barebones</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263668</link>
		<dc:creator>praisegod barebones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263668</guid>
		<description>&#039;You would think the muslim veil would fall under this category in the West. &#039;

No I wouldn&#039;t.  Covering your hair is not the same as covering your face.

&#039;In Muslim countries women are not encouraged to go out unescorted,&#039;

Depends what you&#039;re counting as a Muslim country. Its not true of the country where I live which is majority Muslim in terms of population but politically and administratively secular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;You would think the muslim veil would fall under this category in the West. &#8217;</p>

	<p>No I wouldn&#8217;t.  Covering your hair is not the same as covering your face.</p>

	<p>&#8216;In Muslim countries women are not encouraged to go out unescorted,&#8217;</p>

	<p>Depends what you&#8217;re counting as a Muslim country. Its not true of the country where I live which is majority Muslim in terms of population but politically and administratively secular.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263655</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263655</guid>
		<description>#23 - just consent, and thus not rape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#23 &#8211; just consent, and thus not rape.</p>
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		<title>By: salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263644</link>
		<dc:creator>salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263644</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think it is illegal in the US to go about masked&lt;/i&gt;

Hardly anywhere, really. There was some fun maybe 2 years ago with these new zippered hooded sweatshirts that zip up over the head, upward between the eyes, so that the face is covered with this light fabric that you can&#039;t very well see into but can be seen out of, more or less. Very cute idea. I thought the ones with generic smiley faces on the mask fabric were especially inspired. Anyway, the kids (adolescent) who&#039;d normally wear dragon-design tee shirts were completely thrilled by this. About half of the wearers were this group of kids (who frankly wouldn&#039;t know how to create trouble without a networked computer), not quite half were genuine violent-to-property troublemakers, and a few were kids who wore the mask-jackets just because they were itching to be told to not wear them. About a dozen in all, out of a population of +/- 500.

Our school district required hoods-down &lt;i&gt;while in school&lt;/i&gt; (equivalent to &quot;no masks in school&quot;) and the requirement was upheld in a challenge to the policy (one of the kids just itching to feel oppressed was the challenger). However, you&#039;d see kids in these things out in public all the time, no problem. The sheriff admitted there was nothing illegal about wearing them, even if the kids were just rummaging about town stirring up trouble, but laughed off his own irritation: &quot;there&#039;s no better way for them to get my attention&quot; and scrutiny, he said, &quot;it&#039;s like wearing a hovering billboard that says WATCH ME floating over your head&quot; (probably not his exact words, but my memory of the mixed metaphor is intact).

I think there might&#039;ve been some talk of considering the masks a sign of gang participation after the group of hooligans trashed a flush toilet in the local Subway and no particular one of them took the blame. There was this idea floating around that maybe the whole group could be charged with criminal conspiracy, but given that the entire group was allegedly witnessed all crowded into the one-person stall at the time of the incident, I don&#039;t think their wearing of masks would be necessary to prove group responsibility. Everyone knew who they were from their incessant bragging about it for weeks afterward.

Anyway, no permit required to wear a mask, etc. I&#039;d bet local jurisdictions differ wildly, so generalizing US policy would be impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I think it is illegal in the US to go about masked</i></p>

	<p>Hardly anywhere, really. There was some fun maybe 2 years ago with these new zippered hooded sweatshirts that zip up over the head, upward between the eyes, so that the face is covered with this light fabric that you can&#8217;t very well see into but can be seen out of, more or less. Very cute idea. I thought the ones with generic smiley faces on the mask fabric were especially inspired. Anyway, the kids (adolescent) who&#8217;d normally wear dragon-design tee shirts were completely thrilled by this. About half of the wearers were this group of kids (who frankly wouldn&#8217;t know how to create trouble without a networked computer), not quite half were genuine violent-to-property troublemakers, and a few were kids who wore the mask-jackets just because they were itching to be told to not wear them. About a dozen in all, out of a population of +/- 500.</p>

	<p>Our school district required hoods-down <i>while in school</i> (equivalent to &#8220;no masks in school&#8221;) and the requirement was upheld in a challenge to the policy (one of the kids just itching to feel oppressed was the challenger). However, you&#8217;d see kids in these things out in public all the time, no problem. The sheriff admitted there was nothing illegal about wearing them, even if the kids were just rummaging about town stirring up trouble, but laughed off his own irritation: &#8220;there&#8217;s no better way for them to get my attention&#8221; and scrutiny, he said, &#8220;it&#8217;s like wearing a hovering billboard that says <span class="caps">WATCH ME</span> floating over your head&#8221; (probably not his exact words, but my memory of the mixed metaphor is intact).</p>

	<p>I think there might&#8217;ve been some talk of considering the masks a sign of gang participation after the group of hooligans trashed a flush toilet in the local Subway and no particular one of them took the blame. There was this idea floating around that maybe the whole group could be charged with criminal conspiracy, but given that the entire group was allegedly witnessed all crowded into the one-person stall at the time of the incident, I don&#8217;t think their wearing of masks would be necessary to prove group responsibility. Everyone knew who they were from their incessant bragging about it for weeks afterward.</p>

	<p>Anyway, no permit required to wear a mask, etc. I&#8217;d bet local jurisdictions differ wildly, so generalizing US policy would be impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263594</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263594</guid>
		<description>Going about in a mask was prohibited in England because crimes were committed during Carnival and other mumming festivals. That is why people started wearing strips of paper or blackface during mumming in Britain and the US. In Spain they had to prohibit wide-brimmed hats for the same reason. Too many people took to committing crimes while wearing them.  

I think it is illegal in the US to go about masked, but an exception is made during Holloween (and parades with permits?).  You would think the muslim veil would fall under this category in the West. In Muslim countries women are not encouraged to go out unescorted, so the problem of someone committing a crime while veiled (or disguised as a veiled woman) doesn&#039;t arise so much, I imagine. It did arise during the Algerian uprising (I am just riffing).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Going about in a mask was prohibited in England because crimes were committed during Carnival and other mumming festivals. That is why people started wearing strips of paper or blackface during mumming in Britain and the US. In Spain they had to prohibit wide-brimmed hats for the same reason. Too many people took to committing crimes while wearing them.</p>

	<p>I think it is illegal in the US to go about masked, but an exception is made during Holloween (and parades with permits?).  You would think the muslim veil would fall under this category in the West. In Muslim countries women are not encouraged to go out unescorted, so the problem of someone committing a crime while veiled (or disguised as a veiled woman) doesn&#8217;t arise so much, I imagine. It did arise during the Algerian uprising (I am just riffing).</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263588</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263588</guid>
		<description>Let me be more specific. Kaczynski wished to defend himself at his trial; the state did not wish this, but insisted that he must use public defenders, who wanted him to plead insanity as his, they said, only hope for evading the death penalty. Actually, there was also a professional lawyer Kaczynski wanted who was willing to make a political defense and to work pro bono: Tony Serra. Kaczynski was denied the counsel of his choice and required to use court-appointed lawyers. He wished not to plead insanity, but to defend his actions. His lawyers regarded this as itself evidence of insanity. There was the beginning of a trial, but the trial was halted, because Kaczynski would not accept the court-appointed representation, and the court did not want to give him a forum for his ideas (and public officials said so; even the judge said he did not want to make the trial a &quot;suicide forum&quot;). The court solution was to drop the death penalty and cancel the trial in exchange for a guilty plea, so Kaczynski&#039;s lawyers were wrong: he got what they said he could get only by admitting insanity without admitting such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Let me be more specific. Kaczynski wished to defend himself at his trial; the state did not wish this, but insisted that he must use public defenders, who wanted him to plead insanity as his, they said, only hope for evading the death penalty. Actually, there was also a professional lawyer Kaczynski wanted who was willing to make a political defense and to work pro bono: Tony Serra. Kaczynski was denied the counsel of his choice and required to use court-appointed lawyers. He wished not to plead insanity, but to defend his actions. His lawyers regarded this as itself evidence of insanity. There was the beginning of a trial, but the trial was halted, because Kaczynski would not accept the court-appointed representation, and the court did not want to give him a forum for his ideas (and public officials said so; even the judge said he did not want to make the trial a &#8220;suicide forum&#8221;). The court solution was to drop the death penalty and cancel the trial in exchange for a guilty plea, so Kaczynski&#8217;s lawyers were wrong: he got what they said he could get only by admitting insanity without admitting such.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263586</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263586</guid>
		<description>21: what would fraudulently-obtained consent be, in that context?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>21: what would fraudulently-obtained consent be, in that context?</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263581</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263581</guid>
		<description>As usual, news reports about the case have muddled the actual arguments. If you read the circumstance of this case, the law Drew allegedly violated, and the case Kerr refers to &lt;i&gt;People v. Donell&lt;/i&gt;( 32 Cal. App. 3d 613; 108 Cal. Rptr. 232), you will discover that the idea is this: unless a criminal law specifies that fraudulent conduct mean that consent was not granted, the fact that consent was granted via fraud does not mean that consent was not granted. Put differently, if the law says &quot;no one can access a computer without permission&quot; and I get permission by pretending to be someone else, I have not broken the law since I got permission, but did so fraudulently. The law Drew allegedly violated refers to a person who &quot;intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access.&quot; MySpace created an account, which authorized Drew to access the servers. MySpace may have a civil complaint against Drew for violating its terms of service, but there is no criminal act because the law did not specify that, if access was obtained by fraud, it was illegal. 

If I went to MySpace and brute-forced my way into  Quiggen&#039;s account, I would have unauthorized access. But if I go to MySpace and register an account in Quiggen&#039;s name, MySpace has authorized my access although I have acted fraudulently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As usual, news reports about the case have muddled the actual arguments. If you read the circumstance of this case, the law Drew allegedly violated, and the case Kerr refers to <i>People v. Donell</i>( 32 Cal. App. 3d 613; 108 Cal. Rptr. 232), you will discover that the idea is this: unless a criminal law specifies that fraudulent conduct mean that consent was not granted, the fact that consent was granted via fraud does not mean that consent was not granted. Put differently, if the law says &#8220;no one can access a computer without permission&#8221; and I get permission by pretending to be someone else, I have not broken the law since I got permission, but did so fraudulently. The law Drew allegedly violated refers to a person who &#8220;intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access.&#8221; MySpace created an account, which authorized Drew to access the servers. MySpace may have a civil complaint against Drew for violating its terms of service, but there is no criminal act because the law did not specify that, if access was obtained by fraud, it was illegal.</p>

	<p>If I went to MySpace and brute-forced my way into  Quiggen&#8217;s account, I would have unauthorized access. But if I go to MySpace and register an account in Quiggen&#8217;s name, MySpace has authorized my access although I have acted fraudulently.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263536</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263536</guid>
		<description>I am a lawyer (or used to be) and this habit of sticking whatever-you-fancy on the front of &quot;consent&quot;, as if that doesn&#039;t change the very nature of &quot;consent&quot;, is very irritating and I think illegitimate.  However, the law is not on my side for the most part. Violently-obtained consent is not considered &quot;real&quot; consent, but according to a judge on the UK side of the pond in the context of rape, drunken consent is, and as far as I am aware, fraudulently-obtained consent is too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I am a lawyer (or used to be) and this habit of sticking whatever-you-fancy on the front of &#8220;consent&#8221;, as if that doesn&#8217;t change the very nature of &#8220;consent&#8221;, is very irritating and I think illegitimate.  However, the law is not on my side for the most part. Violently-obtained consent is not considered &#8220;real&#8221; consent, but according to a judge on the UK side of the pond in the context of rape, drunken consent is, and as far as I am aware, fraudulently-obtained consent is too.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263531</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263531</guid>
		<description>There must be many bloggers out there who are hoping that the Drew case will help put federal enforcement behind the terms of their blogs.   The more likely results of the Drew case will be a dilution of federal laws governing such terms.  Drew has not been sentenced yet, btw, and it is unlikely that she will go to jail for violating MySpace&#039;s terms of service.

There are so  few laws covering the use of e-technology and, even before the Drew case, users could be prosecuted, as pointed out above, using clever application of broad and archaic legislation.   New legislation is aimed more at &#039;cyber bullying&#039;, which may give some protection to users, even sock puppeteers who are bullied or harassed online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There must be many bloggers out there who are hoping that the Drew case will help put federal enforcement behind the terms of their blogs.   The more likely results of the Drew case will be a dilution of federal laws governing such terms.  Drew has not been sentenced yet, btw, and it is unlikely that she will go to jail for violating MySpace&#8217;s terms of service.</p>

	<p>There are so  few laws covering the use of e-technology and, even before the Drew case, users could be prosecuted, as pointed out above, using clever application of broad and archaic legislation.   New legislation is aimed more at &#8216;cyber bullying&#8217;, which may give some protection to users, even sock puppeteers who are bullied or harassed online.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263509</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263509</guid>
		<description>18: yes, he did. I think benot is trying to argue that the Clinton government worried that giving him a trial might have adverse consequences, but went ahead and gave him a trial anyway, and the Bush government kidnaps, tortures, imprisons and murders people without trial - so really they&#039;re as bad as each other. And Kaczynski was sane. Or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>18: yes, he did. I think benot is trying to argue that the Clinton government worried that giving him a trial might have adverse consequences, but went ahead and gave him a trial anyway, and the Bush government kidnaps, tortures, imprisons and murders people without trial &#8211; so really they&#8217;re as bad as each other. And Kaczynski was sane. Or something.</p>
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		<title>By: weichi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263505</link>
		<dc:creator>weichi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 07:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263505</guid>
		<description>Kaczynski is &quot;locked up indefinitely without trial&quot;? Didn&#039;t he plead guilty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kaczynski is &#8220;locked up indefinitely without trial&#8221;? Didn&#8217;t he plead guilty?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin benot</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/14/are-sockpuppeteers-computer-criminals/comment-page-1/#comment-263492</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin benot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9157#comment-263492</guid>
		<description>Why is it not possible to simply lock Lori Drew up as a nut? Isn&#039;t driving a young girl to suicide for amusement psychopathic? If the issue is that her mind is lucid, wasn&#039;t that also true of the Unabomber?  The manifesto was perfectly lucid and the government admitted it feared giving him a trial because he might be too persuasive of his cause if permitted to speak publicly in his own defense. Yet he is locked up indefinitely without trial. It seems to me the case against Drew is stronger than against Kaczynski, as the latter is political and therefore a situation in which the state may have an interest other than public order. Can someone explain to me why the legal rationale that imprisons Ted cannot be applied to Lori?

I also think it is important to keep the Unabomber case in mind for those who think imprisoning terrorists without trial was a Bush innovation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Why is it not possible to simply lock Lori Drew up as a nut? Isn&#8217;t driving a young girl to suicide for amusement psychopathic? If the issue is that her mind is lucid, wasn&#8217;t that also true of the Unabomber?  The manifesto was perfectly lucid and the government admitted it feared giving him a trial because he might be too persuasive of his cause if permitted to speak publicly in his own defense. Yet he is locked up indefinitely without trial. It seems to me the case against Drew is stronger than against Kaczynski, as the latter is political and therefore a situation in which the state may have an interest other than public order. Can someone explain to me why the legal rationale that imprisons Ted cannot be applied to Lori?</p>

	<p>I also think it is important to keep the Unabomber case in mind for those who think imprisoning terrorists without trial was a Bush innovation.</p>
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