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	<title>Comments on: A long-dated call</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266608</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266608</guid>
		<description>It turns out that one of the stylized facts about the macroeconomy is that the representative agent is best modeled as a rat.  So the Rat Orgasm Theory of Value has an empirical basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It turns out that one of the stylized facts about the macroeconomy is that the representative agent is best modeled as a rat.  So the Rat Orgasm Theory of Value has an empirical basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Preachy Preach</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266564</link>
		<dc:creator>Preachy Preach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266564</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No, these are salaried professionals doing an audit and reconciliation of accounts in blood and iron. &lt;/i&gt;

These days, they prefer to use Excel. Slightly more user friendly, and less sharp edges.

More seriously, I don&#039;t think, as long as collective endeavours involve human beings, and not immortal altruistic blobs of gooey protoplasm, that there&#039;s an easy solution to this problem. As alluded to above, in professional partnerships, ownership and management are one and the same (albeit highly distributed), and the need to pay out all of the profits earned in a year to the constituent partners of the firm in that year is the paramount goal of such firms...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>No, these are salaried professionals doing an audit and reconciliation of accounts in blood and iron. </i></p>

	<p>These days, they prefer to use Excel. Slightly more user friendly, and less sharp edges.</p>

	<p>More seriously, I don&#8217;t think, as long as collective endeavours involve human beings, and not immortal altruistic blobs of gooey protoplasm, that there&#8217;s an easy solution to this problem. As alluded to above, in professional partnerships, ownership and management are one and the same (albeit highly distributed), and the need to pay out all of the profits earned in a year to the constituent partners of the firm in that year is the paramount goal of such firms&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266561</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266561</guid>
		<description>The Wiederhorn Wiki has some good links. Wiederhorn was taken down by the Asian and Russian crises. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wweek.com/html/lead011399.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This story&lt;/a&gt; was written before his prosecution. 

I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s really the kind of thing Akerlof was talking about at all, I just hate financial wizarsry as such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Wiederhorn Wiki has some good links. Wiederhorn was taken down by the Asian and Russian crises. <a href="http://www.wweek.com/html/lead011399.html" rel="nofollow">This story</a> was written before his prosecution.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s really the kind of thing Akerlof was talking about at all, I just hate financial wizarsry as such.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266560</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266560</guid>
		<description>No, these are salaried professionals doing an audit and reconciliation of accounts in blood and iron. They will rampage and wreak havoc, but without any actual plundering and pillaging. Maybe some pillaging of the kind that leaves wreckage all around, or rapine, but they wouldn&#039;t carry off financial instruments  and shit on the backs of their horses. 

Not to brag, but without any knowledge of economics, just by reading the newspapers and letting the peasant wisdom do its work,  I&#039;ve thought something like what Akerlof and Romer were talking about was happening ever since about the time they wrote the paper.

About ten years ago a widely admired whiz kid financier in Portland Oregon was sent to jail for looting a union pension fund, etc. I did not understand his methods, which seemed to involve making money out of nothing by exploiting tiny differences in rates between various sorts of debts and investments, and I don&#039;t think that his admirers did either. It was like he was a magician. His crimes were committed after his kingdom collapsed, I think, but I ended up believing that if he&#039;d been only a bit luckier he  eventually would have been able to do the same things on a much larger, national  scale.  And he did manage to protect most of his own money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, these are salaried professionals doing an audit and reconciliation of accounts in blood and iron. They will rampage and wreak havoc, but without any actual plundering and pillaging. Maybe some pillaging of the kind that leaves wreckage all around, or rapine, but they wouldn&#8217;t carry off financial instruments  and shit on the backs of their horses.</p>

	<p>Not to brag, but without any knowledge of economics, just by reading the newspapers and letting the peasant wisdom do its work,  I&#8217;ve thought something like what Akerlof and Romer were talking about was happening ever since about the time they wrote the paper.</p>

	<p>About ten years ago a widely admired whiz kid financier in Portland Oregon was sent to jail for looting a union pension fund, etc. I did not understand his methods, which seemed to involve making money out of nothing by exploiting tiny differences in rates between various sorts of debts and investments, and I don&#8217;t think that his admirers did either. It was like he was a magician. His crimes were committed after his kingdom collapsed, I think, but I ended up believing that if he&#8217;d been only a bit luckier he  eventually would have been able to do the same things on a much larger, national  scale.  And he did manage to protect most of his own money.</p>
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		<title>By: Preachy Preach</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266547</link>
		<dc:creator>Preachy Preach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266547</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Gordon Gecko is of course by nature a work of art, but I refuse to take anything with suspenders as a thing of beauty.&lt;/i&gt;

And here we encounter a sentence whose meaning is critically dependent on the idiolect of English being spoken.

I&#039;m suprised nobody&#039;s chucked Schumpeter into the mix - &#039;creative destruction&#039; and all that. (Actually, TBH, &#039;creative destruction&#039; is pretty much the &#039;all that&#039; that I know.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Gordon Gecko is of course by nature a work of art, but I refuse to take anything with suspenders as a thing of beauty.</i></p>

	<p>And here we encounter a sentence whose meaning is critically dependent on the idiolect of English being spoken.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m suprised nobody&#8217;s chucked Schumpeter into the mix &#8211; &#8216;creative destruction&#8217; and all that. (Actually, <span class="caps">TBH</span>, &#8216;creative destruction&#8217; is pretty much the &#8216;all that&#8217; that I know.)</p>
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		<title>By: Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266543</link>
		<dc:creator>Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266543</guid>
		<description>John Emerson, are you now simulaneously claiming that cossacks are things of art and beauty, AND that Gordon Gecko type owners are looting cossacks? Gordon Gecko is of course by nature a work of art, but I refuse to take anything with suspenders as a thing of beauty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Emerson, are you now simulaneously claiming that cossacks are things of art and beauty, <span class="caps">AND</span> that Gordon Gecko type owners are looting cossacks? Gordon Gecko is of course by nature a work of art, but I refuse to take anything with suspenders as a thing of beauty.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266370</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266370</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A dollar in increased dividends today is worth a dollar to owners, but a dollar in increased future earnings of the firm is worth nothing because future payments accrue to the creditors who will be left holding the bag. &lt;/i&gt;

I wrote  a couple of articles about how these undeniable facts about the incentive effects of crushing debt burdens can be used to explain &quot;governance problems&quot; in Africa and the rest of the third world, but they were if anything even less influential than the bonuses one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>A dollar in increased dividends today is worth a dollar to owners, but a dollar in increased future earnings of the firm is worth nothing because future payments accrue to the creditors who will be left holding the bag. </i></p>

	<p>I wrote  a couple of articles about how these undeniable facts about the incentive effects of crushing debt burdens can be used to explain &#8220;governance problems&#8221; in Africa and the rest of the third world, but they were if anything even less influential than the bonuses one.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266241</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266241</guid>
		<description>Akerlof and Romer, from 1994: &lt;a href=&quot;http://pong.tamu.edu/wp/?p=104&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bankruptcy for Profit&lt;/a&gt;. 

&lt;i&gt;&quot;If so the normal economics of maximizing economic value is replaced by the topsy-turvy economics of maximizing current extractable value, which tends to drive the firm’s economic net worth deeply negative. Once owners have decided that they can extract more from a firm by maximizing their present take, any action that allows them to extract more currently will be attractive - even if it causes a large reduction in the true economic net worth of the firm. A dollar in increased dividends today is worth a dollar to owners, but a dollar in increased future earnings of the firm is worth nothing because future payments accrue to the creditors who will be left holding the bag. As a result, bankruptcy for profit can cause social losses that dwarf the transfers from creditors that the shareholders can induce. Because of this disparity between what the owners can capture and the losses that they create, we refer to bankruptcy for profit as looting.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Akerlof and Romer, from 1994: <a href="http://pong.tamu.edu/wp/?p=104" rel="nofollow">Bankruptcy for Profit</a>.</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;If so the normal economics of maximizing economic value is replaced by the topsy-turvy economics of maximizing current extractable value, which tends to drive the firm&#8217;s economic net worth deeply negative. Once owners have decided that they can extract more from a firm by maximizing their present take, any action that allows them to extract more currently will be attractive &#8211; even if it causes a large reduction in the true economic net worth of the firm. A dollar in increased dividends today is worth a dollar to owners, but a dollar in increased future earnings of the firm is worth nothing because future payments accrue to the creditors who will be left holding the bag. As a result, bankruptcy for profit can cause social losses that dwarf the transfers from creditors that the shareholders can induce. Because of this disparity between what the owners can capture and the losses that they create, we refer to bankruptcy for profit as looting.</i></p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266240</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266240</guid>
		<description>Akerlof and Romer, from 1994: &lt;a href=&quot;http://pong.tamu.edu/wp/?p=104&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bankruptcy for Profit&lt;/a&gt;. 

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;If so the normal economics of maximizing economic value is replaced by the topsy-turvy economics of maximizing current extractable value, which tends to drive the firm’s economic net worth deeply negative. Once owners have decided that they can extract more from a firm by maximizing their present take, any action that allows them to extract more currently will be attractive - even if it causes a large reduction in the true economic net worth of the firm. A dollar in increased dividends today is worth a dollar to owners, but a dollar in increased future earnings of the firm is worth nothing because future payments accrue to the creditors who will be left holding the bag. As a result, bankruptcy for profit can cause social losses that dwarf the transfers from creditors that the shareholders can induce. Because of this disparity between what the owners can capture and the losses that they create, we refer to bankruptcy for profit as looting.&quot;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Akerlof and Romer, from 1994: <a href="http://pong.tamu.edu/wp/?p=104" rel="nofollow">Bankruptcy for Profit</a>.</p>

	<p><blockquote cite="If so the normal economics of maximizing economic value is replaced by the topsy-turvy economics of maximizing current extractable value, which tends to drive the firm&#8217;s economic net worth deeply negative. Once owners have decided that they can extract more from a firm by maximizing their present take, any action that allows them to extract more currently will be attractive - even if it causes a large reduction in the true economic net worth of the firm. A dollar in increased dividends today is worth a dollar to owners, but a dollar in increased future earnings of the firm is worth nothing because future payments accrue to the creditors who will be left holding the bag. As a result, bankruptcy for profit can cause social losses that dwarf the transfers from creditors that the shareholders can induce. Because of this disparity between what the owners can capture and the losses that they create, we refer to bankruptcy for profit as looting."></blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: BlaiseP</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266238</link>
		<dc:creator>BlaiseP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266238</guid>
		<description>How did Voltaire put it?  In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to another. 

You, sirs, are in the process of reinventing the Bureaucrat.   From the first eunuchs of Babylon and Chin Shir Huang Ti to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOmB1q8W4Y&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chartered Accountant&lt;/a&gt;, they&#039;ve all dreamed of becomin&#039; Lion Tamers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How did Voltaire put it?  In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to another.</p>

	<p>You, sirs, are in the process of reinventing the Bureaucrat.   From the first eunuchs of Babylon and Chin Shir Huang Ti to the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOmB1q8W4Y" rel="nofollow">Chartered Accountant</a>, they&#8217;ve all dreamed of becomin&#8217; Lion Tamers.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266233</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266233</guid>
		<description>I was more thinking of sending groups of Cossack bank examiners to all the banks asking for money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was more thinking of sending groups of Cossack bank examiners to all the banks asking for money.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266230</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266230</guid>
		<description>&quot;Chairman Frank, Ranking Member Bachus, and other members of the Committee, I am pleased to present the Federal Reserve&#039;s Monetary Policy Report to the Congress. You Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fucker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, Armenian pig, Podolian thief, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig&#039;s snout, mare&#039;s arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw your own mother! 
Thank you.  I would be pleased to take your questions.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Chairman Frank, Ranking Member Bachus, and other members of the Committee, I am pleased to present the Federal Reserve&#8217;s Monetary Policy Report to the Congress. You Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fucker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, Armenian pig, Podolian thief, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig&#8217;s snout, mare&#8217;s arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw your own mother!<br />
Thank you.  I would be pleased to take your questions.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266229</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266229</guid>
		<description>Kazakh hordes. Gotcha.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kazakh hordes. Gotcha.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266228</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266228</guid>
		<description>Cossacks are sort of like Scots. After the Russians crushed them  and took away their freedom, they became the backbone of the Russian military.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cossacks are sort of like Scots. After the Russians crushed them  and took away their freedom, they became the backbone of the Russian military.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/a-long-dated-call/comment-page-2/#comment-266227</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9594#comment-266227</guid>
		<description>Yeah those are the Lipkas (Charles Bronson was one), who were there since helping to kick some Teutonic butt in the 14th/15th century. The ones that the Zaporozhians fought against/eventually allied with (albeit briefly) were Nogais.
And there were no Cossack hordes. There were Cossack hosts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah those are the Lipkas (Charles Bronson was one), who were there since helping to kick some Teutonic butt in the 14th/15th century. The ones that the Zaporozhians fought against/eventually allied with (albeit briefly) were Nogais.<br />
And there were no Cossack hordes. There were Cossack hosts.</p>
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