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	<title>Comments on: Books Every Teacher Should Read. #1: Shopping Mall High School.</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: ralph</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266622</link>
		<dc:creator>ralph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266622</guid>
		<description>Well, there was a nice little wandering there. Back to the original post, I believe the reasonable point that edumacators in the U.S. oppose choice at the level of physical school and unconsciously (at least) support it at the individual school scope. I think this is true, and I think that it&#039;s because of several points, a few of which make complete sense to me and a few of which do not. The idea, for example, that lower-income parents have the time/energy to move their child (whether permanently or daily) to another school merely to do them some selectin&#039; is seen as burdensome, whereas it makes total sense that if the school-as-mall can provide the same selectin&#039; opportunities in the local school just down the street (if in fact they&#039;re lucky).

No one on the U.S. left cares one whit about the badness of choice for anyone; what I perceive as the major obstacle is fairness in the distribution of resources. If the middle- and upper-classes can take their kids out, the fear is that the remaining children will get the resource and opportunity shaft. There IS a bell curve of some form in all things; even in the private world, there are great schools, and there are crappy ones. Sure, the crappy ones are cheaper, but that doesn&#039;t mean they&#039;ll magically go away due to market forces, leaving only lean and efficient ones. Right?

So I think the main arguments that make sense to me about inter-school choice would be those that make arguments about how to continue to distribute competence and resources equitably without regard to race/class AND provide choice. Within schools, there is a rough ability to do this; across schools, not so much -- yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, there was a nice little wandering there. Back to the original post, I believe the reasonable point that edumacators in the U.S. oppose choice at the level of physical school and unconsciously (at least) support it at the individual school scope. I think this is true, and I think that it&#8217;s because of several points, a few of which make complete sense to me and a few of which do not. The idea, for example, that lower-income parents have the time/energy to move their child (whether permanently or daily) to another school merely to do them some selectin&#8217; is seen as burdensome, whereas it makes total sense that if the school-as-mall can provide the same selectin&#8217; opportunities in the local school just down the street (if in fact they&#8217;re lucky).</p>

	<p>No one on the U.S. left cares one whit about the badness of choice for anyone; what I perceive as the major obstacle is fairness in the distribution of resources. If the middle- and upper-classes can take their kids out, the fear is that the remaining children will get the resource and opportunity shaft. There IS a bell curve of some form in all things; even in the private world, there are great schools, and there are crappy ones. Sure, the crappy ones are cheaper, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;ll magically go away due to market forces, leaving only lean and efficient ones. Right?</p>

	<p>So I think the main arguments that make sense to me about inter-school choice would be those that make arguments about how to continue to distribute competence and resources equitably without regard to race/class <span class="caps">AND</span> provide choice. Within schools, there is a rough ability to do this; across schools, not so much&#8212;yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Witt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266612</link>
		<dc:creator>Witt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 02:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266612</guid>
		<description>Darn it, the blockquote looked right on preview. Sorry, everyone. The second and third paragraphs are quoting from the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Darn it, the blockquote looked right on preview. Sorry, everyone. The second and third paragraphs are quoting from the article.</p>
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		<title>By: Witt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266611</link>
		<dc:creator>Witt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266611</guid>
		<description>Since this is the most recent education-related thread, a real live example of schools that explicitly focus on and have narrowed or eliminated the achivement gap:

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;

Philadelphia has a handful of racially and economically diverse schools where Black and White students achieve comparably high test scores, defying the traditional achievement gap. In some cases, African Americans outperform their White peers.

[...] The schools are different, but share some essential characteristics: focused attention on each child; little teacher turnover; a relatively stable student population; and, perhaps most importantly, rigorous dedication to narrowing racial achievement gaps. Each school is supported by strong leadership and boasts both economic and ethnic diversity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thenotebook.org/content/no-gaps-here-schools-where-racial-parity-norm?page=show&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Full article&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Since this is the most recent education-related thread, a real live example of schools that explicitly focus on and have narrowed or eliminated the achivement gap:</p>

	<p><blockquote cite=""></blockquote></p>

	<p>Philadelphia has a handful of racially and economically diverse schools where Black and White students achieve comparably high test scores, defying the traditional achievement gap. In some cases, African Americans outperform their White peers.</p>

	<p>[...] The schools are different, but share some essential characteristics: focused attention on each child; little teacher turnover; a relatively stable student population; and, perhaps most importantly, rigorous dedication to narrowing racial achievement gaps. Each school is supported by strong leadership and boasts both economic and ethnic diversity.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.thenotebook.org/content/no-gaps-here-schools-where-racial-parity-norm?page=show" rel="nofollow">Full article</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266602</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266602</guid>
		<description>Thanks Harry. Weird - the teacher, not your stepfather of course.  Especially since it was a grammar school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Harry. Weird &#8211; the teacher, not your stepfather of course.  Especially since it was a grammar school.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266566</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266566</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s interesting is that this was a grammar school -- that is, all the boys had &quot;passed&quot; the 11plus exam, so were already part of an academic elite of about 25% of the population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What&#8217;s interesting is that this was a grammar school&#8212;that is, all the boys had &#8220;passed&#8221; the 11plus exam, so were already part of an academic elite of about 25% of the population.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266565</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266565</guid>
		<description>No, he left at 15 (probably at the end of the academic year he turned 15). But entered the car industry as an apprentice engineer (breaking off for 2 years of national service) and, when he finally retired, was managing a safety engineering unit most of whose members had PhDs in Engineering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, he left at 15 (probably at the end of the academic year he turned 15). But entered the car industry as an apprentice engineer (breaking off for 2 years of national service) and, when he finally retired, was managing a safety engineering unit most of whose members had PhDs in Engineering.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266563</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266563</guid>
		<description>Harry - the curiousity is killing me, did your stepfather stay at school past his 15th birthday? (I believe the story, my father and some of my older teachers at school can tell similar ones).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry &#8211; the curiousity is killing me, did your stepfather stay at school past his 15th birthday? (I believe the story, my father and some of my older teachers at school can tell similar ones).</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266549</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266549</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think its at all surprising that people who might oppose school choice and tracking might favor allowing students to choose which classes they would take. A couple of observations:

1.) Students in the same school are still physically in the same building. They are in clubs, on teams, eat lunch in the same space, etc. More importantly, they take the same electives which are typically *not* or differentiated at the lower levels.

2.) Students in the same school still have the same administration and broad resources. If all of the students in a school wanted to take an honors curriculum, a principal could simply increase the number of honors sections. Getting enough AP certified teachers to make *all* classes AP would be difficult, but should a school be lucky enough to face that problem, it could be accomplished too.

3.) The alternative to allowing students to choose a standard curriculum or a more challenging curriculum is to have one size fits all. This is not really viable; either the curriculum will be too hard or too easy for large numbers of students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think its at all surprising that people who might oppose school choice and tracking might favor allowing students to choose which classes they would take. A couple of observations:</p>

	<p>1.) Students in the same school are still physically in the same building. They are in clubs, on teams, eat lunch in the same space, etc. More importantly, they take the same electives which are typically <strong>not</strong> or differentiated at the lower levels.</p>

	<p>2.) Students in the same school still have the same administration and broad resources. If all of the students in a school wanted to take an honors curriculum, a principal could simply increase the number of honors sections. Getting enough AP certified teachers to make <strong>all</strong> classes AP would be difficult, but should a school be lucky enough to face that problem, it could be accomplished too.</p>

	<p>3.) The alternative to allowing students to choose a standard curriculum or a more challenging curriculum is to have one size fits all. This is not really viable; either the curriculum will be too hard or too easy for large numbers of students.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266219</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266219</guid>
		<description>Sure, I didn&#039;t mean that these were the only options or practices, just that resistance to tracking is often well-motivated but is also often used to promote homogenisation, rather than setting. 

I&#039;m not sure SLCs are, in fact, working out as you imply. I suspect there&#039;s a lot of window dressing, but only from anecdotal acquaintance, not from any comprehensive  study of what is going on (I hope such a study is under way).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sure, I didn&#8217;t mean that these were the only options or practices, just that resistance to tracking is often well-motivated but is also often used to promote homogenisation, rather than setting.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure SLCs are, in fact, working out as you imply. I suspect there&#8217;s a lot of window dressing, but only from anecdotal acquaintance, not from any comprehensive  study of what is going on (I hope such a study is under way).</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266218</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266218</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But what you’ve described is not setting, but choice of classes (as described in SMH).&lt;/i&gt;

Right, but the point is that &#039;choice of classes&#039; is neither tracking (the institution placing all students into a track for all subjects) nor complete homogenization and, in effect, more like &#039;setting&#039; (as I understand it). 

&lt;i&gt;I strongly get the impression that the SLC grants the Dept of Education is running have tended toward homogenisation within grades 9 and 10 esp in the basic academic subjects.&lt;/i&gt;

SLCs may be pushing for homogenization in grades 9 and 10, but these represent choice of a different kind--many smaller learning communities are magnet or specialty programs which are likely to appeal differentially to students of varying abilities.  And although SLCs may be the &#039;new thing&#039;, they are not typical of American high schools at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But what you&#8217;ve described is not setting, but choice of classes (as described in <span class="caps">SMH</span>).</i></p>

	<p>Right, but the point is that &#8216;choice of classes&#8217; is neither tracking (the institution placing all students into a track for all subjects) nor complete homogenization and, in effect, more like &#8216;setting&#8217; (as I understand it).</p>

	<p><i>I strongly get the impression that the <span class="caps">SLC</span> grants the Dept of Education is running have tended toward homogenisation within grades 9 and 10 esp in the basic academic subjects.</i></p>

	<p>SLCs may be pushing for homogenization in grades 9 and 10, but these represent choice of a different kind&#8212;many smaller learning communities are magnet or specialty programs which are likely to appeal differentially to students of varying abilities.  And although SLCs may be the &#8216;new thing&#8217;, they are not typical of American high schools at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266214</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266214</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure there is good data on this, but I don&#039;t have it (and don&#039;t know how common setting would be). But what you&#039;ve described is not setting, but choice of classes (as described in SMH). I strongly get the impression that the  SLC grants the Dept of Education is running have tended toward homogenisation within grades 9 and 10 esp in the basic academic subjects (which, in the UK, are still the final compulsory years of high school -- secondary school there standardly begins in 6th grade, and setting begins then or very soon after).  But that&#039;s anecdotal - there&#039;s probably data, but I don&#039;t know if the DofE is collecting it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m sure there is good data on this, but I don&#8217;t have it (and don&#8217;t know how common setting would be). But what you&#8217;ve described is not setting, but choice of classes (as described in <span class="caps">SMH</span>). I strongly get the impression that the  <span class="caps">SLC</span> grants the Dept of Education is running have tended toward homogenisation within grades 9 and 10 esp in the basic academic subjects (which, in the UK, are still the final compulsory years of high school&#8212;secondary school there standardly begins in 6th grade, and setting begins then or very soon after).  But that&#8217;s anecdotal &#8211; there&#8217;s probably data, but I don&#8217;t know if the DofE is collecting it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266212</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266212</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I suspect some of the disputes over tracking versus complete homogenisation in the US would be a bit less fractious if setting were more widely adopted (as it is, frequently, for math, but often only for a small elite top-set).&lt;/i&gt;

Is it really the case that &#039;setting&#039; is uncommon in the U.S.?  Our experience in the U.S. has been that choices of which courses to take in advanced form is pretty idiosyncratic.  Few high school students want to go all Honors/AC/AP because it&#039;s just too brutal.  So different students make different choices about where to take advanced courses and where to take regular courses (depending on ability and interest).    They also often trying to figure out how to trade off GPA against &#039;strength of schedule&#039; for university admissions purposes.  My sense is that this is all quite typical for U.S. high-school students.  Is there data that indicates otherwise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I suspect some of the disputes over tracking versus complete homogenisation in the US would be a bit less fractious if setting were more widely adopted (as it is, frequently, for math, but often only for a small elite top-set).</i></p>

	<p>Is it really the case that &#8216;setting&#8217; is uncommon in the U.S.?  Our experience in the U.S. has been that choices of which courses to take in advanced form is pretty idiosyncratic.  Few high school students want to go all Honors/AC/AP because it&#8217;s just too brutal.  So different students make different choices about where to take advanced courses and where to take regular courses (depending on ability and interest).    They also often trying to figure out how to trade off <span class="caps">GPA</span> against &#8216;strength of schedule&#8217; for university admissions purposes.  My sense is that this is all quite typical for U.S. high-school students.  Is there data that indicates otherwise?</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266204</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266204</guid>
		<description>Thanks functional -- I&#039;ve had that discussion with people oh so many times.

Katherine and Sebastian --- schooling is like Babies and Cars -- US and UK English diverge completely. The Brits practice streaming much less than they used to, but setting (in which you are placed for each subject with children who have reached roughly the same level -- there doesn&#039;t seem to be an American equivalent term) is common and pretty uncontroversial. I suspect some of the disputes over tracking versus complete homogenisation in the US would be a bit less fractious if setting were more widely adopted (as it is, frequently, for math, but often only for a small elite top-set).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks functional&#8212;I&#8217;ve had that discussion with people oh so many times.</p>

	<p>Katherine and Sebastian&#8212;- schooling is like Babies and Cars&#8212;US and <span class="caps">UK </span>English diverge completely. The Brits practice streaming much less than they used to, but setting (in which you are placed for each subject with children who have reached roughly the same level&#8212;there doesn&#8217;t seem to be an American equivalent term) is common and pretty uncontroversial. I suspect some of the disputes over tracking versus complete homogenisation in the US would be a bit less fractious if setting were more widely adopted (as it is, frequently, for math, but often only for a small elite top-set).</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266203</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266203</guid>
		<description>Thanks Sebastian.  The UK equivalent is called &quot;streaming&quot;, just for info.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Sebastian.  The UK equivalent is called &#8220;streaming&#8221;, just for info.</p>
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		<title>By: functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/16/ten-books-every-teacher-should-read-1-shopping-mall-high-school/comment-page-1/#comment-266186</link>
		<dc:creator>functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9599#comment-266186</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t talking about you, but about the exact same &quot;American left-educators&quot; that you find puzzling because of their belief that &quot;parental choice of schools will lead to inequality&quot; (as if the parental choice of wealthy suburbanites doesn&#039;t already exist to just about its fullest extent).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wasn&#8217;t talking about you, but about the exact same &#8220;American left-educators&#8221; that you find puzzling because of their belief that &#8220;parental choice of schools will lead to inequality&#8221; (as if the parental choice of wealthy suburbanites doesn&#8217;t already exist to just about its fullest extent).</p>
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