Comments on: Fool! had that bough a pumpkin bore – or – the problem of evil, solv’d http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:52:26 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: roy belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266818 roy belmont Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:18:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266818 Brilliant rebuttal, Dave. I wanted to get pumpkins and Higgs bosons in there, but I ran out of 19th century steam. Maybe that would have helped you flesh things out a little. Next time, okay? Brilliant rebuttal, Dave. I wanted to get pumpkins and Higgs bosons in there, but I ran out of 19th century steam. Maybe that would have helped you flesh things out a little. Next time, okay?

]]> By: dave http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266815 dave Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:12:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266815 <em>rm post from banned commenter Lex/Dave</em> rm post from banned commenter Lex/Dave

]]> By: roy belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266814 roy belmont Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:02:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266814 It is at times, watching this erudite smug scoffing at the delusional believer and his delusional beliefs, as though the mighty, in indignation and righteousness of cause while yet still-beleaguered and minority in number, forces of the Abolitionist campaign were to be seen attacking the peculiar institution of slavery, with the full measure of their wit and knowledge, by ridiculing the slaves themselves, and ripping to small shreds their dull reasons and feeble justifications for continuing so to arduously work without recompense, for masters whose only hold on them is violent coercion and fear. Slaves whose only real justification can ever be that immoral force, and the inescapable fact of their captivity. It is much safer to vent spleen on the unarmed and hapless, and their confused and conflicted, and equally enchained leaders, than to track those chains back to the forge, and to the initial order for their manufacture. And then to track forward the lines of profit that extend from that rewardless labor to...well, yes, to where? Some will cavil that hordes of addled believers yet rampage freely, even that they increase daily though recently not quite so much, and hesitate not at all to attack any unbeliever who makes his claim in public, so that professions of atheism are in fact dangerous and not safe at all, even now, deep as we are in centuries of Reason's Age. This is while true in great part a misdirection, as with the dogs at guard in the grounds of an estate. An estate besieged by angry villagers whose catalog of misuse and injustice has caught fire and driven them hence for retribution. Yes there are dogs, yes they will tear your pants and worse if they can get at you, and yes they are a grievous nuisance to legitimate petitioners, but they are there as are the slaves out in the field and in the back parts of the house, to serve their master, and ensure his wealth and comfort. Some will cavil in turn at that, and say, with disdain, that it is a great frustration of this conflict, that the believers' faith in a non-extant master makes them an opponent like the Hydra, or like a cloud of biting insects, or some other biological metaphor that has no accountable, defeatable head. And, say those cavillers, cavalierly, why not slap and thwack and ridicule and mock, it has its cathartic benefit, it confirms us in our affinity, and may in time even succeed in diminishing the power of superstition, and the superstitious, in society. Why not? Why not laugh at the slave in his chains? Because it is a weak thing to do, and inferiorly motivated. And because it leaves undone the task presented the working conscience when one asks <i>"Cui bono?"</i>. That and the glaring fact that no one here in this troubled world has the slightest idea where we are or what we're doing, beyond the basest and most simplistic subjective explanations. We don't understand time for all that we can measure it with astonishing accuracy. We don't understand gravity except by what it does. We have a working definition of light, but only that, and our knowledge of the infinite universe both exterior and interior is like an infant's knowledge of its crib and its digestive processes, growing rapidly but as yet very immediate. The more we do learn, the more the rationalist's objective universe looks like a comforting, pragmatic myth. In light of that ignorance this mockery of believers and their beliefs appears more like the superior airs and posturings taken on by the privileged house slave toward his less fortunate brothers and sisters in the field, and not at all the compassionate regard of the free and honorable man, confronting, with humility and an open heart, the brutal fact of lives lived in chains. It is at times, watching this erudite smug scoffing at the delusional believer and his delusional beliefs, as though the mighty, in indignation and righteousness of cause while yet still-beleaguered and minority in number, forces of the Abolitionist campaign were to be seen attacking the peculiar institution of slavery, with the full measure of their wit and knowledge, by ridiculing the slaves themselves, and ripping to small shreds their dull reasons and feeble justifications for continuing so to arduously work without recompense, for masters whose only hold on them is violent coercion and fear.
Slaves whose only real justification can ever be that immoral force, and the inescapable fact of their captivity.
It is much safer to vent spleen on the unarmed and hapless, and their confused and conflicted, and equally enchained leaders, than to track those chains back to the forge, and to the initial order for their manufacture. And then to track forward the lines of profit that extend from that rewardless labor to…well, yes, to where?
Some will cavil that hordes of addled believers yet rampage freely, even that they increase daily though recently not quite so much, and hesitate not at all to attack any unbeliever who makes his claim in public, so that professions of atheism are in fact dangerous and not safe at all, even now, deep as we are in centuries of Reason’s Age.
This is while true in great part a misdirection, as with the dogs at guard in the grounds of an estate. An estate besieged by angry villagers whose catalog of misuse and injustice has caught fire and driven them hence for retribution.
Yes there are dogs, yes they will tear your pants and worse if they can get at you, and yes they are a grievous nuisance to legitimate petitioners, but they are there as are the slaves out in the field and in the back parts of the house, to serve their master, and ensure his wealth and comfort.
Some will cavil in turn at that, and say, with disdain, that it is a great frustration of this conflict, that the believers’ faith in a non-extant master makes them an opponent like the Hydra, or like a cloud of biting insects, or some other biological metaphor that has no accountable, defeatable head.
And, say those cavillers, cavalierly, why not slap and thwack and ridicule and mock, it has its cathartic benefit, it confirms us in our affinity, and may in time even succeed in diminishing the power of superstition, and the superstitious, in society. Why not?
Why not laugh at the slave in his chains?
Because it is a weak thing to do, and inferiorly motivated.
And because it leaves undone the task presented the working conscience when one asks “Cui bono?”.
That and the glaring fact that no one here in this troubled world has the slightest idea where we are or what we’re doing, beyond the basest and most simplistic subjective explanations.
We don’t understand time for all that we can measure it with astonishing accuracy. We don’t understand gravity except by what it does. We have a working definition of light, but only that, and our knowledge of the infinite universe both exterior and interior is like an infant’s knowledge of its crib and its digestive processes, growing rapidly but as yet very immediate.
The more we do learn, the more the rationalist’s objective universe looks like a comforting, pragmatic myth.
In light of that ignorance this mockery of believers and their beliefs appears more like the superior airs and posturings taken on by the privileged house slave toward his less fortunate brothers and sisters in the field, and not at all the compassionate regard of the free and honorable man, confronting, with humility and an open heart, the brutal fact of lives lived in chains.

]]> By: roy belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266813 roy belmont Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:01:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266813 Attest. Attest.

]]> By: Agenbite of Belmont http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266764 Agenbite of Belmont Sun, 22 Feb 2009 08:05:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266764 It is at times, watching this erudite smug scoffing at the delusional believer and his delusional beliefs, as though the mighty, in indignation and righteousness of cause while yet still-beleaguered and minority in number, forces of the Abolitionist campaign were to be seen attacking the peculiar institution of slavery, with the full measure of their wit and knowledge, by ridiculing the slaves themselves, and ripping to small shreds their dull reasons and feeble justifications for continuing so to arduously work without recompense, for masters whose only hold on them is violent coercion and fear. Slaves whose only real justification can ever be that immoral force, and the inescapable fact of their captivity. It is much safer to vent spleen on the unarmed and hapless, and their confused and conflicted, and equally enchained leaders, than to track those chains back to the forge, and to the initial order for their manufacture. And then to track forward the lines of profit that extend from that rewardless labor to...well, yes, to where? Some will cavil that hordes of addled believers yet rampage freely, even that they increase daily though recently not quite so much, and hesitate not at all to attack any unbeliever who makes his claim in public, so that professions of atheism are in fact dangerous and not safe at all, even now, deep as we are in centuries of Reason's Age. This is while true in great part a misdirection, as with the dogs at guard in the grounds of an estate. An estate besieged by angry villagers whose catalog of misuse and injustice has caught fire and driven them hence for retribution. Yes there are dogs, yes they will tear your pants and worse if they can get at you, and yes they are a grievous nuisance to legitimate petitioners, but they are there as are the slaves out in the field and in the back parts of the house, to serve their master, and ensure his wealth and comfort. Some will cavil in turn at that, and say, with disdain, that it is a great frustration of this conflict, that the believers' faith in a non-extant master makes them an opponent like the Hydra, or like a cloud of biting insects, or some other biological metaphor that has no accountable, defeatable head. And, say those cavillers, cavalierly, why not slap and thwack and ridicule and mock, it has its cathartic benefit, it confirms us in our affinity, and may in time even succeed in diminishing the power of superstition, and the superstitious, in society. Why not? Why not laugh at the slave in his chains? Because it is a weak thing to do, and inferiorly motivated. And because it leaves undone the task presented the working conscience when one asks <i>"Cui bono?"</i>. That and the glaring fact that no one here in this troubled world has the slightest idea where we are or what we're doing, beyond the basest and most simplistic subjective explanations. We don't understand time for all that we can measure it with astonishing accuracy. We don't understand gravity except by what it does. We have a working definition of light, but only that, and our knowledge of the infinite universe both exterior and interior is like an infant's knowledge of its crib and its digestive processes, growing rapidly, but as yet very immediate. The more we do learn, the more the rationalist's objective universe looks like a comforting, pragmatic myth. In light of that ignorance this mockery of believers and their beliefs appears more like the superior airs and posturings taken on by a privileged house slave toward his less fortunate brothers and sisters in the field, and not at all the compassionate regard of the free and honorable man confronting, with humility and an open heart, the brutal fact of lives lived in chains. It is at times, watching this erudite smug scoffing at the delusional believer and his delusional beliefs, as though the mighty, in indignation and righteousness of cause while yet still-beleaguered and minority in number, forces of the Abolitionist campaign were to be seen attacking the peculiar institution of slavery, with the full measure of their wit and knowledge, by ridiculing the slaves themselves, and ripping to small shreds their dull reasons and feeble justifications for continuing so to arduously work without recompense, for masters whose only hold on them is violent coercion and fear.
Slaves whose only real justification can ever be that immoral force, and the inescapable fact of their captivity.
It is much safer to vent spleen on the unarmed and hapless, and their confused and conflicted, and equally enchained leaders, than to track those chains back to the forge, and to the initial order for their manufacture. And then to track forward the lines of profit that extend from that rewardless labor to…well, yes, to where?
Some will cavil that hordes of addled believers yet rampage freely, even that they increase daily though recently not quite so much, and hesitate not at all to attack any unbeliever who makes his claim in public, so that professions of atheism are in fact dangerous and not safe at all, even now, deep as we are in centuries of Reason’s Age.
This is while true in great part a misdirection, as with the dogs at guard in the grounds of an estate. An estate besieged by angry villagers whose catalog of misuse and injustice has caught fire and driven them hence for retribution.
Yes there are dogs, yes they will tear your pants and worse if they can get at you, and yes they are a grievous nuisance to legitimate petitioners, but they are there as are the slaves out in the field and in the back parts of the house, to serve their master, and ensure his wealth and comfort.
Some will cavil in turn at that, and say, with disdain, that it is a great frustration of this conflict, that the believers’ faith in a non-extant master makes them an opponent like the Hydra, or like a cloud of biting insects, or some other biological metaphor that has no accountable, defeatable head.
And, say those cavillers, cavalierly, why not slap and thwack and ridicule and mock, it has its cathartic benefit, it confirms us in our affinity, and may in time even succeed in diminishing the power of superstition, and the superstitious, in society. Why not?
Why not laugh at the slave in his chains?
Because it is a weak thing to do, and inferiorly motivated.
And because it leaves undone the task presented the working conscience when one asks “Cui bono?”.
That and the glaring fact that no one here in this troubled world has the slightest idea where we are or what we’re doing, beyond the basest and most simplistic subjective explanations.
We don’t understand time for all that we can measure it with astonishing accuracy. We don’t understand gravity except by what it does. We have a working definition of light, but only that, and our knowledge of the infinite universe both exterior and interior is like an infant’s knowledge of its crib and its digestive processes, growing rapidly, but as yet very immediate.
The more we do learn, the more the rationalist’s objective universe looks like a comforting, pragmatic myth.
In light of that ignorance this mockery of believers and their beliefs appears more like the superior airs and posturings taken on by a privileged house slave toward his less fortunate brothers and sisters in the field, and not at all the compassionate regard of the free and honorable man confronting, with humility and an open heart, the brutal fact of lives lived in chains.

]]> By: Fitcher's Bird http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266703 Fitcher's Bird Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:39:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266703 I'm fairly certain that this tale comes from a old <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin" rel="nofollow">Nasreddin Hodja</a> story, which wasn't half as vindictive and fell in the general tradition of 'oh, that silly Nasreddin Hodja' . In the version I read as a child (paraphrased from memory), the fruits were a watermelon and a date. Hodja (Muslim, not atheist) spotted them growing near each other and wondered why God gave a large fruit like a watermelon such a small stalk instead growing it on a tree. A date falls on his head, not injuring him, and Hodja goes "Oh, that'd be why." I’m fairly certain that this tale comes from a old Nasreddin Hodja story, which wasn’t half as vindictive and fell in the general tradition of ‘oh, that silly Nasreddin Hodja’ . In the version I read as a child (paraphrased from memory), the fruits were a watermelon and a date. Hodja (Muslim, not atheist) spotted them growing near each other and wondered why God gave a large fruit like a watermelon such a small stalk instead growing it on a tree. A date falls on his head, not injuring him, and Hodja goes “Oh, that’d be why.”

]]> By: walker http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266696 walker Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:00:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266696 Just kibitzing in on the conversation here; Bloix is running riot here. Where's the strident atheistic poet to challenge him? Has theism finally found its preordained avenger? Just kibitzing in on the conversation here; Bloix is running riot here. Where’s the strident atheistic poet to challenge him? Has theism finally found its preordained avenger?

]]> By: salient http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266676 salient Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:15:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266676 <i>I’m trying to figure out in which sport goalkeeping involves having either pumpkins or acorns thrown at your face…</i> Field hockey? I’m trying to figure out in which sport goalkeeping involves having either pumpkins or acorns thrown at your face…

Field hockey?

]]> By: Tom S. Fox http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266675 Tom S. Fox Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:27:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266675 Did you know that 150 people are killed by falling coconuts each year? Did you know that 150 people are killed by falling coconuts each year?

]]> By: belle le triste http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266637 belle le triste Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:06:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266637 the book i'm reading about the civil war -- michael braddick's "god's fury, england's fire" -- just noted that the activism for freedom of conscience round the time of the putney meetings (1647-48) specifically excluded atheism and popery, which were both considered still entirely punishable by radical AND respectable opinion: this -- and dave's post -- have answered my question the book i’m reading about the civil war—michael braddick’s “god’s fury, england’s fire”—just noted that the activism for freedom of conscience round the time of the putney meetings (1647-48) specifically excluded atheism and popery, which were both considered still entirely punishable by radical AND respectable opinion: this—and dave’s post—have answered my question

]]> By: Preachy Preach http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266636 Preachy Preach Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:53:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266636 Chapter XV (+- 1) in Decline & Fall is a superb example of the most bald-faced irony - without ever directly making a mocking statement, but just by taking everything at face value, he manages to make Christian theology look utterly ridiculous. Chapter XV (+- 1) in Decline & Fall is a superb example of the most bald-faced irony – without ever directly making a mocking statement, but just by taking everything at face value, he manages to make Christian theology look utterly ridiculous.

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266632 ajay Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:01:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266632 Damn. "By the magistrate as equally useful." Damn. “By the magistrate as equally useful.”

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266631 ajay Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:01:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266631 <i>Since the ‘God’ that the everyday priesthood preached about was so evidently a bogeyman/consolation-prize for the downtrodden and unfortunate, ignoring him when you were rich, famous, talented and convinced of your own inherent superiority made a lot of sense.</i> "The myriad gods of the empire were all regarded by the common man as equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the philosopher as equally useful" - Gibbon. Since the ‘God’ that the everyday priesthood preached about was so evidently a bogeyman/consolation-prize for the downtrodden and unfortunate, ignoring him when you were rich, famous, talented and convinced of your own inherent superiority made a lot of sense.

“The myriad gods of the empire were all regarded by the common man as equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the philosopher as equally useful” – Gibbon.

]]> By: dave http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266627 dave Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:16:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266627 <em>rm post from banned commenter Lex/Dave</em> rm post from banned commenter Lex/Dave

]]> By: mor http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/17/fool-had-that-bough-a-pumpkin-bore-or-the-problem-of-evil-solvd/comment-page-2/#comment-266626 mor Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:45:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9604#comment-266626 Was it Johnson who said that the 18th.C. was an age of unbelief? In Sacred Poetry Gray’s Elegy is profusely illustrated. Arnold asks why Gray’s production was so scanty and the answer he proffers is that Gray was born into an age of prose. Lady Anne’s poem is a poor argument but it is poor poetry because it is an argument. It aspires more to wit and ‘splendid diction’ than to enthusiasm. Is there any atheist poetry that celebrates unbelief or argues for it? Arnold was wistful and regretted it in ‘Dover Beach’. ‘On First Looking into Darwin’s Origin’ by R.Dawkins. Strutting like a rook, declaiming, with his glittering eye. Was it Johnson who said that the 18th.C. was an age of unbelief? In Sacred Poetry Gray’s Elegy is profusely illustrated. Arnold asks why Gray’s production was so scanty and the answer he proffers is that Gray was born into an age of prose. Lady Anne’s poem is a poor argument but it is poor poetry because it is an argument. It aspires more to wit and ‘splendid diction’ than to enthusiasm.

Is there any atheist poetry that celebrates unbelief or argues for it? Arnold was wistful and regretted it in ‘Dover Beach’.

‘On First Looking into Darwin’s Origin’ by R.Dawkins. Strutting like a rook, declaiming, with his glittering eye.

]]>