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	<title>Comments on: Framing nationalization</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-2/#comment-266975</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266975</guid>
		<description>We aren&#039;t talking about a moral calculus here, but about whether or not the Soviet Union was imperialist post-Stalin. My argument is that it wasn&#039;t, and my evidence was Austria. 

Deciding whether or not to be imperialist isn&#039;t a question of &#039;good naturedness&#039;, but of cold economic calculation. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever argued that it would have been in Russia&#039;s economic interests to invade France, Spain or the UK, and, to the best of my knowledge, no serious plans to do so have been unveiled post &#039;91. 

Remember that the invasion of Afganistan (which should probably be seen as an &#039;outlier&#039; rather than evidence for some grand imperial plan) did in fact cause the USSR to topple into economic bankruptcy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We aren&#8217;t talking about a moral calculus here, but about whether or not the Soviet Union was imperialist post-Stalin. My argument is that it wasn&#8217;t, and my evidence was Austria.</p>

	<p>Deciding whether or not to be imperialist isn&#8217;t a question of &#8216;good naturedness&#8217;, but of cold economic calculation. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever argued that it would have been in Russia&#8217;s economic interests to invade France, Spain or the UK, and, to the best of my knowledge, no serious plans to do so have been unveiled post &#8216;91.</p>

	<p>Remember that the invasion of Afganistan (which should probably be seen as an &#8216;outlier&#8217; rather than evidence for some grand imperial plan) did in fact cause the <span class="caps">USSR</span> to topple into economic bankruptcy.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-2/#comment-266956</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266956</guid>
		<description>Er.... so.  Tens of millions of people narrowly avoided being killed by Stalin.  The relevant characteristic of Khrushchev, Beria, Molotov, et al, was that they not only survived, but got promoted.  Quite frequently for doing things that lead to the deaths of the millions of people Stalin actually did kill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Er&#8230;. so.  Tens of millions of people narrowly avoided being killed by Stalin.  The relevant characteristic of Khrushchev, Beria, Molotov, et al, was that they not only survived, but got promoted.  Quite frequently for doing things that lead to the deaths of the millions of people Stalin actually did kill.</p>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-2/#comment-266955</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266955</guid>
		<description>&#039;Given that the post-Stalin leadership consisted of people who rose under Stalin, I’ll stick with NATO.&#039;

Er....yeah. It would be more accurate to state that the post-Stalin leadership consisted mainly of people who had narrowly avoided being killed by Stalin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Given that the post-Stalin leadership consisted of people who rose under Stalin, I&#8217;ll stick with <span class="caps">NATO</span>.&#8217;</p>

	<p>Er&#8230;.yeah. It would be more accurate to state that the post-Stalin leadership consisted mainly of people who had narrowly avoided being killed by Stalin.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-2/#comment-266939</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266939</guid>
		<description>Except that containment was firmly in place before Stalin died.  Was it NATO or the inherent good naturedness of the post-Stalin leadership that kept the Soviets from expanding?  Given that the post-Stalin leadership consisted of people who rose under Stalin, I&#039;ll stick with NATO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Except that containment was firmly in place before Stalin died.  Was it <span class="caps">NATO</span> or the inherent good naturedness of the post-Stalin leadership that kept the Soviets from expanding?  Given that the post-Stalin leadership consisted of people who rose under Stalin, I&#8217;ll stick with <span class="caps">NATO</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-2/#comment-266932</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266932</guid>
		<description>&#039;Which presumably means “done through fear of another invasion from the west rather than for economic gain” – this rather ignores things like the dismantling of large amounts of German industry and its shipping east into Russia, and the degree to which the USSR exerted influence over the economies of the rest of COMECON.&#039;

I was relatively clear to stress the discontinuities between Soviet foreign policy pre and post Stalin. There&#039;s no doubt that Stalin was a Very Bad Man, and probably did have imperialist designs on Eastern Europe.  Whether this was continued after his death is very much more doubtful, and, as I said, the withdrawal from Austria would seem to indicate the contrary. Russian actions in &#039;56 and &#039;68 were horrendous, but were all about holding onto territory that the USSR already held, which is rather different from openly going out to try and conquer new territory. Afghanistan would seem to  be the exception that proves the rule.*


*pedants corner: I&#039;m using that phrase in the way it&#039;s actually used nowadays, not in the way that derives from the original use of the word &#039;proves&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Which presumably means &#8220;done through fear of another invasion from the west rather than for economic gain&#8221; &#8211; this rather ignores things like the dismantling of large amounts of German industry and its shipping east into Russia, and the degree to which the <span class="caps">USSR</span> exerted influence over the economies of the rest of <span class="caps">COMECON</span>.&#8217;</p>

	<p>I was relatively clear to stress the discontinuities between Soviet foreign policy pre and post Stalin. There&#8217;s no doubt that Stalin was a Very Bad Man, and probably did have imperialist designs on Eastern Europe.  Whether this was continued after his death is very much more doubtful, and, as I said, the withdrawal from Austria would seem to indicate the contrary. Russian actions in &#8216;56 and &#8216;68 were horrendous, but were all about holding onto territory that the <span class="caps">USSR</span> already held, which is rather different from openly going out to try and conquer new territory. Afghanistan would seem to  be the exception that proves the rule.*</p>


	<p>*pedants corner: I&#8217;m using that phrase in the way it&#8217;s actually used nowadays, not in the way that derives from the original use of the word &#8216;proves&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-2/#comment-266871</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266871</guid>
		<description>As I recall from the movie Peter O&#039;Toole claimed to be a Circassian when arrested on a spying mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I recall from the movie Peter O&#8217;Toole claimed to be a Circassian when arrested on a spying mission.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266869</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266869</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes of course the Soviet subjugation of eastern Europe was vile. But it was vileness done from quite different motives than those of old-fashioned imperialism.&lt;/i&gt;

Which presumably means &quot;done through fear of another invasion from the west rather than for economic gain&quot; - this rather ignores things like the dismantling of large amounts of German industry and its shipping east into Russia, and the degree to which the USSR exerted influence over the economies of the rest of COMECON.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Yes of course the Soviet subjugation of eastern Europe was vile. But it was vileness done from quite different motives than those of old-fashioned imperialism.</i></p>

	<p>Which presumably means &#8220;done through fear of another invasion from the west rather than for economic gain&#8221; &#8211; this rather ignores things like the dismantling of large amounts of German industry and its shipping east into Russia, and the degree to which the <span class="caps">USSR</span> exerted influence over the economies of the rest of <span class="caps">COMECON</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266845</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266845</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not missing the point, I&#039;m making a different, and I believe more accurate, point.  Barry&#039;s argument makes perfect sense only if you ignore everything that happened before June 1941.  If you start in 1939, you would note that the Soviets invaded the Baltics, Poland, and Finland well before they were invaded and devastated.  Then they kept them, plus more, after 1945.  My point is, why should we believe that occupying Eastern Europe was a defensive reaction to the Great Patriotic War when they were trying to do the same thing before that war?  What the Soviets did in Eastern Europe was imperialism unless you define imperialism in such a way that, by definition, it can&#039;t be done by a communist state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not missing the point, I&#8217;m making a different, and I believe more accurate, point.  Barry&#8217;s argument makes perfect sense only if you ignore everything that happened before June 1941.  If you start in 1939, you would note that the Soviets invaded the Baltics, Poland, and Finland well before they were invaded and devastated.  Then they kept them, plus more, after 1945.  My point is, why should we believe that occupying Eastern Europe was a defensive reaction to the Great Patriotic War when they were trying to do the same thing before that war?  What the Soviets did in Eastern Europe was imperialism unless you define imperialism in such a way that, by definition, it can&#8217;t be done by a communist state.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266842</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266842</guid>
		<description>MH is missing the point.  Yes of course the Soviet subjugation of eastern Europe was vile.  But it was vileness done from quite different motives than those of old-fashioned imperialism.  It was therefore wrong to ascribe old-fashioned imperialist motives to the USSR, at least as a guide to their future behaviour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>MH is missing the point.  Yes of course the Soviet subjugation of eastern Europe was vile.  But it was vileness done from quite different motives than those of old-fashioned imperialism.  It was therefore wrong to ascribe old-fashioned imperialist motives to the <span class="caps">USSR</span>, at least as a guide to their future behaviour.</p>
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		<title>By: nnyhav</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266836</link>
		<dc:creator>nnyhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266836</guid>
		<description>JW, yer on to something. Wards of the state. Something for everybody, even widders &amp; orfans, ntm that institutional tinge of the wings of a sanitorium ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JW, yer on to something. Wards of the state. Something for everybody, even widders &#038; orfans, ntm that institutional tinge of the wings of a sanitorium &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266811</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266811</guid>
		<description>Call it &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.answers.com/topic/wardship&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;wardship.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; The feudal connotation of incompetent juveniles is just right. The guardians expected to profit handsomely from the service, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Call it <a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/wardship" rel="nofollow"><i>wardship.</i></a> The feudal connotation of incompetent juveniles is just right. The guardians expected to profit handsomely from the service, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Cryptic ned</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266754</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266754</guid>
		<description>Interesting...when I think cultural depictions of &quot;Circassian&quot;, I think of &lt;a href=&quot;http://jeanleonegerome.blogspot.com/2008/07/veiled-circassian-beauty.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;, not warriors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting&#8230;when I think cultural depictions of &#8220;Circassian&#8221;, I think of <a href="http://jeanleonegerome.blogspot.com/2008/07/veiled-circassian-beauty.html" rel="nofollow">this</a>, not warriors.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266746</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266746</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t forget Captive Nations Week this summer.  I don&#039;t know if it is still official or not, but that doesn&#039;t mean you can&#039;t at least have cake and punch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Don&#8217;t forget Captive Nations Week this summer.  I don&#8217;t know if it is still official or not, but that doesn&#8217;t mean you can&#8217;t at least have cake and punch.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266745</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266745</guid>
		<description>Note:  When you were actually allied with the country that later devastated you to invade several other countries, I don&#039;t see why everybody else can&#039;t put a big old grain of salt on top of your definition of defensive.  Especially since you got to keep the countries that you tried to get while allied with the guy who eventually devastated you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Note:  When you were actually allied with the country that later devastated you to invade several other countries, I don&#8217;t see why everybody else can&#8217;t put a big old grain of salt on top of your definition of defensive.  Especially since you got to keep the countries that you tried to get while allied with the guy who eventually devastated you.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/02/19/framing-nationalization/comment-page-1/#comment-266744</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9629#comment-266744</guid>
		<description>&quot;They got burned by the Nazis (while actually allied with them), so let’s use the Politburo definition of imperialistic.&quot;

Note - when your country is invaded and devastated as the USSR was in WWII, your definition of &#039;defensive&#039; changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;They got burned by the Nazis (while actually allied with them), so let&#8217;s use the Politburo definition of imperialistic.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Note &#8211; when your country is invaded and devastated as the <span class="caps">USSR</span> was in <span class="caps">WWII</span>, your definition of &#8216;defensive&#8217; changes.</p>
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