Comments on: Men and Mothering http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:13:42 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: dutchmarbel http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-269053 dutchmarbel Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:10:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-269053 I asked my husband and he doesn't feel shut out or making women uncomfortable now (our kids are 6, 8 & 10) but he does feel that it's different when you talk about babies and toddlers. Things in the Netherlands are still geared towards women caring for the babies: changing tables are usually in the women's toiletrooms in public places, when people had questions about the babies they would always ask for me even if it was by phone and they talked to him, and when we visit people with small kids they always assume I want to hold them but never ask him - which is a shame because he is more into babies then I am. The part-time culture in the Netherlands makes a difference I think. These days there are many many dads picking their kids up from school and discussing their kids there, so seeing men as care-givers is normal. Though being a stay-at-home-dad would still be seen as weird, people would assume there would be a specific reason rather then a volontary choice. My husband actually made a comment about the status of child-caring. He felt that people are much more focussed on child raising these days, life is more child-centred than it used to be. Maybe men also feel more at ease with child caring because it is seen as more important than it used to be. I asked my husband and he doesn’t feel shut out or making women uncomfortable now (our kids are 6, 8 & 10) but he does feel that it’s different when you talk about babies and toddlers. Things in the Netherlands are still geared towards women caring for the babies: changing tables are usually in the women’s toiletrooms in public places, when people had questions about the babies they would always ask for me even if it was by phone and they talked to him, and when we visit people with small kids they always assume I want to hold them but never ask him – which is a shame because he is more into babies then I am.

The part-time culture in the Netherlands makes a difference I think. These days there are many many dads picking their kids up from school and discussing their kids there, so seeing men as care-givers is normal. Though being a stay-at-home-dad would still be seen as weird, people would assume there would be a specific reason rather then a volontary choice.

My husband actually made a comment about the status of child-caring. He felt that people are much more focussed on child raising these days, life is more child-centred than it used to be. Maybe men also feel more at ease with child caring because it is seen as more important than it used to be.

]]> By: LizardBreath http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268776 LizardBreath Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:17:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268776 <i>I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he gets coded as “different” (not sure whether I mean rural/small town here, or something else) enough that he’s “allowed” to break rules that men who are from the same social and geographic background can’t.</i> You're pointing out that I married John-Boy Walton? Eh, that's part of it, but I don't think it's the whole thing -- I wouldn't expect someone else similarly small-town in NYC to necessarily have the same sort of stuff going on. We're also in a male-caregiver friendly neighborhood, admittedly. There are a lot of men in work-at-home or odd-hours jobs (writers, musicians), so one man taking care of his kids doesn't stand out in the same way they might in another neighborhood. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he gets coded as “different” (not sure whether I mean rural/small town here, or something else) enough that he’s “allowed” to break rules that men who are from the same social and geographic background can’t.

You’re pointing out that I married John-Boy Walton? Eh, that’s part of it, but I don’t think it’s the whole thing—I wouldn’t expect someone else similarly small-town in NYC to necessarily have the same sort of stuff going on.

We’re also in a male-caregiver friendly neighborhood, admittedly. There are a lot of men in work-at-home or odd-hours jobs (writers, musicians), so one man taking care of his kids doesn’t stand out in the same way they might in another neighborhood.

]]> By: Witt http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268772 Witt Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:05:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268772 <i>if any man were going to be able to integrate, it’d be him</i> I wonder if another social or cultural issues is also a factor. LB, if I remember correctly, your husband grew up in the U.S. but not in a setting that is anything like the urban area where you now live. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he gets coded as "different" (not sure whether I mean rural/small town here, or something else) enough that he's "allowed" to break rules that men who are from the same social and geographic background can't. To stretch a point, I'm regarded as slightly peculiar/exotic by some of my neighbors because I commute to work in the city; I think they're also more tolerant (or at least unsurprised) by other behavior because they had already classed me as "not exactly one of us." Not sure I'm saying this clearly; I'm certainly also agreeing with everything you said about being extroverted/approachable/nonthreatening. if any man were going to be able to integrate, it’d be him

I wonder if another social or cultural issues is also a factor. LB, if I remember correctly, your husband grew up in the U.S. but not in a setting that is anything like the urban area where you now live.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he gets coded as “different” (not sure whether I mean rural/small town here, or something else) enough that he’s “allowed” to break rules that men who are from the same social and geographic background can’t.

To stretch a point, I’m regarded as slightly peculiar/exotic by some of my neighbors because I commute to work in the city; I think they’re also more tolerant (or at least unsurprised) by other behavior because they had already classed me as “not exactly one of us.”

Not sure I’m saying this clearly; I’m certainly also agreeing with everything you said about being extroverted/approachable/nonthreatening.

]]> By: Doug K http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268755 Doug K Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:14:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268755 My experience in the occasional week of primary caregiving parallels ECW's; though in my case it's a generally college-educated Republican suburb. The experience is not one of hostility as such, but certainly discomfort. It might well be different if I moved 60 miles north to Boulder CO.. My experience in the occasional week of primary caregiving parallels ECW’s; though in my case it’s a generally college-educated Republican suburb. The experience is not one of hostility as such, but certainly discomfort. It might well be different if I moved 60 miles north to Boulder CO..

]]> By: LizardBreath http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268731 LizardBreath Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:55:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268731 My husband has always been more of a primary caregiver than I have been (that is, I work outside the home, he's a writer working at home. When our kids were smaller, we had a paid caregiver, but my husband was around during the days, before she came, and after she left.) He didn't have any trouble becoming part of the mothers/nannies network, but that's not worth much except as an anecdote -- he's unusually far out on the extroverted/approachable/nonthreatening end of the spectrum, so if any man were going to be able to integrate, it'd be him. My husband has always been more of a primary caregiver than I have been (that is, I work outside the home, he’s a writer working at home. When our kids were smaller, we had a paid caregiver, but my husband was around during the days, before she came, and after she left.) He didn’t have any trouble becoming part of the mothers/nannies network, but that’s not worth much except as an anecdote—he’s unusually far out on the extroverted/approachable/nonthreatening end of the spectrum, so if any man were going to be able to integrate, it’d be him.

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268685 Katherine Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:55:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268685 ECW, those are all very good points, well made. I think perhaps some of the <i>lack</i> of that that my partner has may be to do with the fact that, although a man, he tends to "communicate like a woman" far more than I. His appearance, although obviously male, is not in the macho model (not that I'm suggesting yours is) - long-ish hair, quite slight. Perhaps that, combined with the fact that he too is a committed feminist, somewhat minimised the "man in a female space" effect. ECW, those are all very good points, well made. I think perhaps some of the lack of that that my partner has may be to do with the fact that, although a man, he tends to “communicate like a woman” far more than I. His appearance, although obviously male, is not in the macho model (not that I’m suggesting yours is) – long-ish hair, quite slight. Perhaps that, combined with the fact that he too is a committed feminist, somewhat minimised the “man in a female space” effect.

]]> By: harry b http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268671 harry b Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:29:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268671 I used to be a (male) nanny in Brighton (well, I'm still male). It was fun. I was young enough that no-one looked askance -- I could have been a (much) older brother (it was a very long time ago). Still, when I tell my students they laugh, thinking I'm making it up. I'd guess Brighton is among the most friendly places one could be a sahd. I used to be a (male) nanny in Brighton (well, I’m still male). It was fun. I was young enough that no-one looked askance—I could have been a (much) older brother (it was a very long time ago). Still, when I tell my students they laugh, thinking I’m making it up. I’d guess Brighton is among the most friendly places one could be a sahd.

]]> By: ECW http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268670 ECW Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:12:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268670 I've been the (male) primary care-giver for our toddler for since her birth three years ago. I live in a relatively traditional suburb where the college is only a minor influence on the social culture. It has been made very clear to me in both explicit and implicit ways that I was not welcome in the daytime parenting activities of our community, which are overwhelmingly gendered. Some of that comes from the discomfort that male-female encounters call up in the intimate sphere of baby/toddler raising, at least in a community that practices very strongly normative parenting practices. Some of it comes from gender practices themselves: while I'm deeply committed to feminism and feminist ideals (hence my stay at home status) I still "communicate like a man." My politics don't transform my affect, in other words, and the male affect disrupts (or highlights in uncomfortable ways) the female character of the baby/toddler care community. I see this very clearly in the public spaces that are obviously female in our suburb. I've never seen another man at the duck pond or toddler swings during the day -- those are female spaces between 8-4 -- and my presence makes the women uncomfortable. The same is true of the public library story hour, which is a mid-morning female space. I think most of this has to do with the not surprising need for women to preserve spaces for their own interactions. My barging into those spaces, baby stroller and diaper bag notwithstanding, takes that space away. Any man willing to do primary parenting should also be attentive enough to feminism to recognize their own privileges and impact on the "safe" feeling of publicly female spaces and be willing to minimize it. I've learned to reduce my presence in those female spaces by staying to the side and keeping quiet, which I think is respectful, or as respectful as I can be while still letting my child have a chance to interact with other small children. I’ve been the (male) primary care-giver for our toddler for since her birth three years ago. I live in a relatively traditional suburb where the college is only a minor influence on the social culture. It has been made very clear to me in both explicit and implicit ways that I was not welcome in the daytime parenting activities of our community, which are overwhelmingly gendered. Some of that comes from the discomfort that male-female encounters call up in the intimate sphere of baby/toddler raising, at least in a community that practices very strongly normative parenting practices. Some of it comes from gender practices themselves: while I’m deeply committed to feminism and feminist ideals (hence my stay at home status) I still “communicate like a man.” My politics don’t transform my affect, in other words, and the male affect disrupts (or highlights in uncomfortable ways) the female character of the baby/toddler care community. I see this very clearly in the public spaces that are obviously female in our suburb. I’ve never seen another man at the duck pond or toddler swings during the day—those are female spaces between 8-4—and my presence makes the women uncomfortable. The same is true of the public library story hour, which is a mid-morning female space.

I think most of this has to do with the not surprising need for women to preserve spaces for their own interactions. My barging into those spaces, baby stroller and diaper bag notwithstanding, takes that space away. Any man willing to do primary parenting should also be attentive enough to feminism to recognize their own privileges and impact on the “safe” feeling of publicly female spaces and be willing to minimize it. I’ve learned to reduce my presence in those female spaces by staying to the side and keeping quiet, which I think is respectful, or as respectful as I can be while still letting my child have a chance to interact with other small children.

]]> By: Cian http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268667 Cian Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:25:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268667 Two data points. I'm a stay at home dad in Brighton (UK), and never felt any disapproval (some jealousy from other men), but its pretty normal here. On the other hand, when we visit my wife's family in S. Carolina I get lots of questions about when I plan to return to work, etc, etc. On the other hand I have experienced awkwardness, but you're going to find that in any situation where you're the sole male in a femal environment. One of the nice things about having twin toddlers is that you don't have to arrange play dates. Two data points. I’m a stay at home dad in Brighton (UK), and never felt any disapproval (some jealousy from other men), but its pretty normal here. On the other hand, when we visit my wife’s family in S. Carolina I get lots of questions about when I plan to return to work, etc, etc.

On the other hand I have experienced awkwardness, but you’re going to find that in any situation where you’re the sole male in a femal environment.

One of the nice things about having twin toddlers is that you don’t have to arrange play dates.

]]> By: Ingrid Robeyns http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268655 Ingrid Robeyns Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:59:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268655 I think the critical mass is really the issue here. I partly agree with Des about gender roles in the Netherlands; because it is true that the NL has a very low female share of the total work force (not the number of women that work, but rather participation weighted for hours of paid work); yet on the other hand the NL also has the highest percentage on earth of men working part time (not that it is that much - roughly around 15 percent - but last time I read about it, it was nevertheless the highest male part-time statistic worldwide). Since this statistic is over hte entire population, one can expect that in certain neighbourhoods (e.g. with yups or concentrations of academics) it is higher - and it is in ours. I see men with strollers, fathers in the sandbox, or fathers in the park all the time. I talk to them just as they talk to me. I have never felt that they are excluded - perhaps next time I am going to ask them. And I think it is because I have almost never seen one of them alone, that is, as the only men. They are sometimes in a minority, but often their share reaches a critical mass so that one doesn't notice the gender imbalance. In research about women in politics or women in the top of academia, it is sometimes suggested that one third is what one needs to no longer notice the gender composition. I would stipulate that with about one quarter one would at least include people from the minority sex on a roughly equal footing, even though we would still in the back of our heads know about it. And in this weird country with all these men having 'daddy days', I think we've reached that critical mass. So Harry, there is hope! :-) I think the critical mass is really the issue here. I partly agree with Des about gender roles in the Netherlands; because it is true that the NL has a very low female share of the total work force (not the number of women that work, but rather participation weighted for hours of paid work); yet on the other hand the NL also has the highest percentage on earth of men working part time (not that it is that much – roughly around 15 percent – but last time I read about it, it was nevertheless the highest male part-time statistic worldwide). Since this statistic is over hte entire population, one can expect that in certain neighbourhoods (e.g. with yups or concentrations of academics) it is higher – and it is in ours. I see men with strollers, fathers in the sandbox, or fathers in the park all the time. I talk to them just as they talk to me. I have never felt that they are excluded – perhaps next time I am going to ask them. And I think it is because I have almost never seen one of them alone, that is, as the only men. They are sometimes in a minority, but often their share reaches a critical mass so that one doesn’t notice the gender imbalance.
In research about women in politics or women in the top of academia, it is sometimes suggested that one third is what one needs to no longer notice the gender composition. I would stipulate that with about one quarter one would at least include people from the minority sex on a roughly equal footing, even though we would still in the back of our heads know about it. And in this weird country with all these men having ‘daddy days’, I think we’ve reached that critical mass.
So Harry, there is hope! :-)

]]> By: harry b http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268653 harry b Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:13:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268653 Katherine -- it says she did a qualitative study with 100 men. No info on how they were selected, but I'm getting the book so will know when I read it. Two things. 1) I know that what I experienced and observed was discomfort, and I'm pretty certain no hostility. But discomfort can readily be experienced as if it is hostility (in other circumstances I know I have experienced the discomfort of others as hostility and vice versa). So that someone says they experience hostility is only prima facie and fairly weak evidence that it is there. 2) Nevertheless, depending on where she drew her men from, I wouldn't be surprised if there is hostility in some environments. I know older women in particular who find the relationship between me and my children troubling in a way that sometimes slips out in comments that sound slightly hostile (not so much to me, as to my wife). Katherine—it says she did a qualitative study with 100 men. No info on how they were selected, but I’m getting the book so will know when I read it. Two things. 1) I know that what I experienced and observed was discomfort, and I’m pretty certain no hostility. But discomfort can readily be experienced as if it is hostility (in other circumstances I know I have experienced the discomfort of others as hostility and vice versa). So that someone says they experience hostility is only prima facie and fairly weak evidence that it is there. 2) Nevertheless, depending on where she drew her men from, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is hostility in some environments. I know older women in particular who find the relationship between me and my children troubling in a way that sometimes slips out in comments that sound slightly hostile (not so much to me, as to my wife).

]]> By: des von bladet http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268652 des von bladet Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:10:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268652 Mrs Von Bladet has lately swanned off to Milan, leaving me (a card-carrying member of the penis-club) as temporary "primary carer" of our one-year-old for an (almost) full two weeks. (Normally we have a co-care arrangement - with only one child and Dutch infrastructure we have both traded down to four-day working weeks and we fill the rest with third-party care.) I must say that although the Netherlands is surprisingly "traditional" about gender-roles and parenting for a northern European country, I have never felt the slightest hint of exclusion or disapproval when I proceed solo in a parently direction. (If either of us were to give up paid employment for parenting it would probably be me - it is not that I am particularly good at it, but I am also not very career-minded.) And there is really no need for me to gloat about it, but we do propose to send little Boris to a school about 100 metres up the road - and there are several others within walking/cycling distance. (This neighbourhood is built around the assumption that children will play outside and their friends will be very local and they do. As I understand it, this is not unusual in the Netherlands and it is certainly very welcome.) (I guess I'm an Associate Member of Academic Club; I hold roughly the rank of a non-commissioned officer in the programming corps - back in the UK I used to claim that I was roughly at the rank of a postdoc, only with less stress and better pay, but I'm not sure the postdocs are as stressed or underpayed as they were in Blighty.) Mrs Von Bladet has lately swanned off to Milan, leaving me (a card-carrying member of the penis-club) as temporary “primary carer” of our one-year-old for an (almost) full two weeks. (Normally we have a co-care arrangement – with only one child and Dutch infrastructure we have both traded down to four-day working weeks and we fill the rest with third-party care.)

I must say that although the Netherlands is surprisingly “traditional” about gender-roles and parenting for a northern European country, I have never felt the slightest hint of exclusion or disapproval when I proceed solo in a parently direction. (If either of us were to give up paid employment for parenting it would probably be me – it is not that I am particularly good at it, but I am also not very career-minded.)

And there is really no need for me to gloat about it, but we do propose to send little Boris to a school about 100 metres up the road – and there are several others within walking/cycling distance. (This neighbourhood is built around the assumption that children will play outside and their friends will be very local and they do. As I understand it, this is not unusual in the Netherlands and it is certainly very welcome.)

(I guess I’m an Associate Member of Academic Club; I hold roughly the rank of a non-commissioned officer in the programming corps – back in the UK I used to claim that I was roughly at the rank of a postdoc, only with less stress and better pay, but I’m not sure the postdocs are as stressed or underpayed as they were in Blighty.)

]]> By: Philip http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268651 Philip Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:39:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268651 'but with the economy getting worse my guess is that stay-at-home dads are rapidaly becoming more common' Probably right, made me think of <a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZaQOAAAAQAAJ&printsec=copyright&dq=jane+wheelock#PPP1,M1" rel="nofollow">this book</a> by one of my old lecturers. ‘but with the economy getting worse my guess is that stay-at-home dads are rapidaly becoming more common’

Probably right, made me think of this book by one of my old lecturers.

]]> By: Zeba http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268648 Zeba Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:28:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268648 My husband was the primary care-giver for our youngest son from when the minion was 1 until he was 2.5 and old enough to go to kindergarden here in Brussels. He had opportunities to socialise with mothers, but didn't really enjoy it, besides which as a non-driver, felt bad about cadging lifts to out of town activities. I think he coped better with the demands of stay at home parenting better than I would have (I did it for 18 months with number one, but was always getting tangled up in activities that were non-child related, e.g. teaching, directing plays, freelance editing and journalism, exam marking...and personally loathed all the 'mumsy' activities like Tumble tots and mini-music). He was regarded as relatively unusual - whether looking at expat circles or Belgian ones, but that said, he is much happier as a homemaker than I am, and far more competent in that arena. Now that both children are in school, he works part-time and I continue as the main breadwinner and expect to do so for the foreseeable future. I think fathers who stay at home are confronted with stereotyped and tiresome views about their role and their status. But if enough couples have the courage to examine their situation honestly, facing up to the issues of finance, status and self-esteem which are associated with staying at home, I would imagine that many more men and women would be happy with role reversal. My husband was the primary care-giver for our youngest son from when the minion was 1 until he was 2.5 and old enough to go to kindergarden here in Brussels. He had opportunities to socialise with mothers, but didn’t really enjoy it, besides which as a non-driver, felt bad about cadging lifts to out of town activities. I think he coped better with the demands of stay at home parenting better than I would have (I did it for 18 months with number one, but was always getting tangled up in activities that were non-child related, e.g. teaching, directing plays, freelance editing and journalism, exam marking…and personally loathed all the ‘mumsy’ activities like Tumble tots and mini-music).

He was regarded as relatively unusual – whether looking at expat circles or Belgian ones, but that said, he is much happier as a homemaker than I am, and far more competent in that arena. Now that both children are in school, he works part-time and I continue as the main breadwinner and expect to do so for the foreseeable future.

I think fathers who stay at home are confronted with stereotyped and tiresome views about their role and their status. But if enough couples have the courage to examine their situation honestly, facing up to the issues of finance, status and self-esteem which are associated with staying at home, I would imagine that many more men and women would be happy with role reversal.

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/10/men-and-mothering/comment-page-1/#comment-268646 Katherine Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:19:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9704#comment-268646 There are a few men who are primary care-givers round these parts, or at least sharing care - and I have to say that I view this "men are unwelcome" meme with suspicion. I realise I'm not in a position to know first-hand but I've never excluded the fathers in question - in fact, quite the opposite - and I've never observed any cold shoulders exhibited. My partner took 3 months off work recently to have a brief stint at primary carer of our daughter and he didn't notice any hostility. Is there any actual, y'know, <i>evidence</i> behind the claims made in this book? Why does this guy quoted feel that it's not so easy to go up to another guy with a small child and strike up conversation? What's going on there? There are a few men who are primary care-givers round these parts, or at least sharing care – and I have to say that I view this “men are unwelcome” meme with suspicion. I realise I’m not in a position to know first-hand but I’ve never excluded the fathers in question – in fact, quite the opposite – and I’ve never observed any cold shoulders exhibited. My partner took 3 months off work recently to have a brief stint at primary carer of our daughter and he didn’t notice any hostility.

Is there any actual, y’know, evidence behind the claims made in this book? Why does this guy quoted feel that it’s not so easy to go up to another guy with a small child and strike up conversation? What’s going on there?

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