Comments on: The Desert of the Real comes to Nashville http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 07:36:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269172 Righteous Bubba Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:13:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269172 <blockquote>But where does Peter Tosh’s “Equal Rights” stand in the production universe?</blockquote>I dunno. Your not giving a shit about production values is largely my attitude - Daniel Johnston recorded great songs alone on two cassette machines that almost always sound worse when bands and technology intervene - but then I think about The Kinks. I've slowly been wending my way through their discography and songs that are obviously as good as any Beatles song often sound weak or lifeless or even out of tune because they weren't given the proper care (largely by the songwriter himself). While I'm obviously suspicious of straying too far beyond bare-bones recording of bands that already have good things going for them, surely someone like JM could go back and make that Kinks stuff better. It would have been nicer if care was exercised in the first place, but there you go. <blockquote>I thought Albini’s been pretty explicit about the fact that he’s charged some bands that he thought sucked and/or who had a buttload of money on their hands a whole lot</blockquote>He has, but at his own studio he has a flat rate - except when he decides to be nice - and is a worker bee.
But where does Peter Tosh’s “Equal Rights” stand in the production universe?
I dunno. Your not giving a shit about production values is largely my attitude – Daniel Johnston recorded great songs alone on two cassette machines that almost always sound worse when bands and technology intervene – but then I think about The Kinks. I’ve slowly been wending my way through their discography and songs that are obviously as good as any Beatles song often sound weak or lifeless or even out of tune because they weren’t given the proper care (largely by the songwriter himself). While I’m obviously suspicious of straying too far beyond bare-bones recording of bands that already have good things going for them, surely someone like JM could go back and make that Kinks stuff better. It would have been nicer if care was exercised in the first place, but there you go.

I thought Albini’s been pretty explicit about the fact that he’s charged some bands that he thought sucked and/or who had a buttload of money on their hands a whole lot
He has, but at his own studio he has a flat rate – except when he decides to be nice – and is a worker bee.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269158 John Emerson Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:09:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269158 Where you gonna run to? The Second Great Depression is upon us. Where you gonna run to? The Second Great Depression is upon us.

]]> By: notsneaky http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269146 notsneaky Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:00:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269146 I thought Albini's been pretty explicit about the fact that he's charged some bands that he thought sucked and/or who had a buttload of money on their hands a whole lot, just so that he could turn around and record other bands that he thought didn't suck and (not, and/or here) didn't have a buttload of money for next to nothing. At least he claims this somewhere and some people who usually don't let others "in the scene" get away with bullshit seem to generally agree. I thought Albini’s been pretty explicit about the fact that he’s charged some bands that he thought sucked and/or who had a buttload of money on their hands a whole lot, just so that he could turn around and record other bands that he thought didn’t suck and (not, and/or here) didn’t have a buttload of money for next to nothing. At least he claims this somewhere and some people who usually don’t let others “in the scene” get away with bullshit seem to generally agree.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269145 John Emerson Sat, 14 Mar 2009 05:22:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269145 These questions are important, guys. Get on the stick. These questions are important, guys. Get on the stick.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269144 John Emerson Sat, 14 Mar 2009 05:13:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269144 "The Harder they Come" is pretty good too. Also, the Rastafarian world view is wrongly maligned. The seas will be boiling and the rocks melting once Bush's back-loaded crisis fully kicks in. Obama won't be helping. What are your plans for that moment? “The Harder they Come” is pretty good too.

Also, the Rastafarian world view is wrongly maligned. The seas will be boiling and the rocks melting once Bush’s back-loaded crisis fully kicks in. Obama won’t be helping. What are your plans for that moment?

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269143 John Emerson Sat, 14 Mar 2009 04:48:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269143 Perhaps a dead thread, but anyway. I don't give a shit about production values etc etc. if I like something and don't know anything about that stuff. But where does Peter Tosh's "Equal Rights" stand in the production universe? Because I'm listening to it, and you can an pick out a part and listen to it separately all the way through if you want. But the ensemble is good too. So this is a classic, right? Perhaps a dead thread, but anyway.

I don’t give a shit about production values etc etc. if I like something and don’t know anything about that stuff. But where does Peter Tosh’s “Equal Rights” stand in the production universe? Because I’m listening to it, and you can an pick out a part and listen to it separately all the way through if you want. But the ensemble is good too. So this is a classic, right?

]]> By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269074 Righteous Bubba Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:12:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269074 <blockquote>which doesn’t change the significance of my quote in the slightest</blockquote> It does if you read it, particularly the very first sentence, but you can stick with your interpretation if you prefer being wrong. <blockquote>As for not being a producer, Albini’s two-mic technique on the lead vocals for “All Apologies” is not an example of a hands-off engineer.</blockquote>It is: the band wanted it and he gave it to them. If they hadn't wanted it, he wouldn't have. Some of his other techniques Cobain seemed to like as he lifted them to record The Melvins later on. Anyway, better a guy who knows how to mic things - faster too! - than a guy who at the get go may want the sound to go through hoops (compression, saturation, delay, reverb, chorus, pseudo-doubling, etc.). That last guy is someone who will cost unnecessary money. Albini, in any case, is just an example, which is why I put a little rollover text in the link that said "just an example". I didn't say he didn't colour the sound - anyone who prefers X equipment in X environment does that.
which doesn’t change the significance of my quote in the slightest
It does if you read it, particularly the very first sentence, but you can stick with your interpretation if you prefer being wrong.

As for not being a producer, Albini’s two-mic technique on the lead vocals for “All Apologies” is not an example of a hands-off engineer.
It is: the band wanted it and he gave it to them. If they hadn’t wanted it, he wouldn’t have. Some of his other techniques Cobain seemed to like as he lifted them to record The Melvins later on. Anyway, better a guy who knows how to mic things – faster too! – than a guy who at the get go may want the sound to go through hoops (compression, saturation, delay, reverb, chorus, pseudo-doubling, etc.). That last guy is someone who will cost unnecessary money.

Albini, in any case, is just an example, which is why I put a little rollover text in the link that said “just an example”. I didn’t say he didn’t colour the sound – anyone who prefers X equipment in X environment does that.

]]> By: JM http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269054 JM Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:15:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269054 <i>You may wish to include what precedes that quote:</i> ... which doesn't change the significance of my quote in the slightest, hence my "YMMV." Someone who's willing to take a dumb label to the cleaners is not necessarily "cheaper." As for not being a producer, Albini's two-mic technique on the lead vocals for "All Apologies" is not an example of a hands-off engineer. In fact, it was one of the things Cobain said he wanted from Albini's work (Cobain disagreed with other aspects of the Albini sound). <i>There's also an entire drum track</i> on "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter" that's lifted from Pigface's "Gub," which Albini worked on the previous year. So, while Albini is a great bomb-thrower when it comes to talking about the politics of music, he's hardly what you seem to think he is. He's a producer. He has a sound. He can call himself a wombat for all the difference it'll make. You may wish to include what precedes that quote:

… which doesn’t change the significance of my quote in the slightest, hence my “YMMV.” Someone who’s willing to take a dumb label to the cleaners is not necessarily “cheaper.”

As for not being a producer, Albini’s two-mic technique on the lead vocals for “All Apologies” is not an example of a hands-off engineer. In fact, it was one of the things Cobain said he wanted from Albini’s work (Cobain disagreed with other aspects of the Albini sound). There’s also an entire drum track on “Radio Friendly Unit Shifter” that’s lifted from Pigface’s “Gub,” which Albini worked on the previous year. So, while Albini is a great bomb-thrower when it comes to talking about the politics of music, he’s hardly what you seem to think he is. He’s a producer. He has a sound. He can call himself a wombat for all the difference it’ll make.

]]> By: Ben Alpers http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269045 Ben Alpers Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:29:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269045 This thread is the sort of thing that makes Teh Interwebs so great. Who'da thunk I'd be learning so much about recording at CT? This thread is the sort of thing that makes Teh Interwebs so great. Who’da thunk I’d be learning so much about recording at CT?

]]> By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269010 Chris Bertram Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:26:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269010 Having just listened to the clips on the Amazon site, and for a very initial reaction, I'd say that the "stripped down" and remixed Nashville sound doesn't sound like alt.country at all (well it certainly doesn't sound anything like Jay Farrar or Whiskeytown or similar). What it _does_ sound like is the Bakersfield sound. Which is all to the good as far as I'm concerned. Having just listened to the clips on the Amazon site, and for a very initial reaction, I’d say that the “stripped down” and remixed Nashville sound doesn’t sound like alt.country at all (well it certainly doesn’t sound anything like Jay Farrar or Whiskeytown or similar). What it does sound like is the Bakersfield sound. Which is all to the good as far as I’m concerned.

]]> By: Matt McGrattan http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269009 Matt McGrattan Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:01:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269009 Come to think of it, there were loads of 50s jazz players who didn't really use that tone, either. Think of Johnny Smith's sound, for example. Come to think of it, there were loads of 50s jazz players who didn’t really use that tone, either.

Think of Johnny Smith’s sound, for example.

]]> By: Matt McGrattan http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-269007 Matt McGrattan Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:52:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-269007 <i>It’s harder to record a guitar than a sax or piano, and jazz guitarists roll off the tail pickups to produce a bass-dominated sound that records better. The problems of gain and power amp distortion are virtually unknown in jazz before jazz fusion [shudder].</i> It's interesting listening to a lot of 'historic' jazz guitar recordings as you can hear that 'neck-pickup with the tone rolled off' sound slowly coming in. A lot of 40s jazz guitar doesn't sound that way. In fact, a lot of swing and early bop guitar has a fairly toppy tone, and sometimes the guitar amp is clearly being overdriven slightly. 50s players working in that country/jazz/swing hybrid idiom often have a <i>really</i> toppy tone: think telecaster bridge-pickup. I'm thinking of Jimmy Bryant, Speedy Haworth, Thumbs Carlisle, and people like that. It’s harder to record a guitar than a sax or piano, and jazz guitarists roll off the tail pickups to produce a bass-dominated sound that records better. The problems of gain and power amp distortion are virtually unknown in jazz before jazz fusion [shudder].

It’s interesting listening to a lot of ‘historic’ jazz guitar recordings as you can hear that ‘neck-pickup with the tone rolled off’ sound slowly coming in. A lot of 40s jazz guitar doesn’t sound that way. In fact, a lot of swing and early bop guitar has a fairly toppy tone, and sometimes the guitar amp is clearly being overdriven slightly.

50s players working in that country/jazz/swing hybrid idiom often have a really toppy tone: think telecaster bridge-pickup. I’m thinking of Jimmy Bryant, Speedy Haworth, Thumbs Carlisle, and people like that.

]]> By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-268954 Righteous Bubba Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:04:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-268954 You may wish to include what precedes that quote: <blockquote>Unlike any other engineer/record producer with his experience and prominence, Albini does not receive royalties for anything he records or mixes; rather he charges a flat daily fee when recording at his own facility, described by Azerrad (Azerrad, 2001) as among the most affordable for a world-class recording studio. In fact, Albini initially charged only for his time, allowing free use of his studio to friends or musicians he respected who were willing to engineer their own recording sessions and purchase their own magnetic tape (Azerrad, 2001). When recording elsewhere, Albini uses an admittedly arbitrary sliding scale: <blockquote>"I charge whatever the hell I feel like at the moment..."</blockquote></blockquote> You may wish to include what precedes that quote:

Unlike any other engineer/record producer with his experience and prominence, Albini does not receive royalties for anything he records or mixes; rather he charges a flat daily fee when recording at his own facility, described by Azerrad (Azerrad, 2001) as among the most affordable for a world-class recording studio. In fact, Albini initially charged only for his time, allowing free use of his studio to friends or musicians he respected who were willing to engineer their own recording sessions and purchase their own magnetic tape (Azerrad, 2001). When recording elsewhere, Albini uses an admittedly arbitrary sliding scale:

“I charge whatever the hell I feel like at the moment…”

]]> By: JM http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-268951 JM Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:55:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-268951 <i>Cheaper too.</i> That depends on "whatever the hell I feel like at the moment, based on the client's ability to pay, how nice the band members are, the size and directly proportional gullibility of the record company, and whether or not they got the rock...." YMMV Cheaper too.

That depends on “whatever the hell I feel like at the moment, based on the client’s ability to pay, how nice the band members are, the size and directly proportional gullibility of the record company, and whether or not they got the rock….”

YMMV

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/12/the-desert-of-the-real-comes-to-nashville/comment-page-1/#comment-268949 dsquared Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:48:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=9977#comment-268949 I personally wouldn't count anything less twiddly that "Elegant Gypsy" to be jazz fusion in the pejorative sense. I personally wouldn’t count anything less twiddly that “Elegant Gypsy” to be jazz fusion in the pejorative sense.

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