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	<title>Comments on: The earth shape controversy revived</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270926</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270926</guid>
		<description>Hi,er, Onymous,

Many thanks for scaring this stuff up. Most of these I have not seen and I will look at them. My prior reading on this left me with the impression that the early consensus was around 1.5, and that as the issue got politicised (that&#039;s purely my subjective characterisation, obviously), the forcing got jacked up. But, hey--it could be the science, and the papers you&#039;ve found. I owe you one, and again, many thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi,er, Onymous,</p>

	<p>Many thanks for scaring this stuff up. Most of these I have not seen and I will look at them. My prior reading on this left me with the impression that the early consensus was around 1.5, and that as the issue got politicised (that&#8217;s purely my subjective characterisation, obviously), the forcing got jacked up. But, hey&#8212;it could be the science, and the papers you&#8217;ve found. I owe you one, and again, many thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: onymous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270919</link>
		<dc:creator>onymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270919</guid>
		<description>Also, just to be clear: if the effect of CO2 was &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; a greenhouse effect, with no feedbacks whatsoever, the climate sensitivity would be 1 K. So for observations to imply at 95% confidence that climate sensitivity is above 1.5 K is strong empirical evidence for the existence of positive feedbacks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, just to be clear: if the effect of <span class="caps">CO2</span> was <i>only</i> a greenhouse effect, with no feedbacks whatsoever, the climate sensitivity would be 1 K. So for observations to imply at 95% confidence that climate sensitivity is above 1.5 K is strong empirical evidence for the existence of positive feedbacks.</p>
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		<title>By: onymous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270917</link>
		<dc:creator>onymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270917</guid>
		<description>As promised, I&#039;ve been looking into the literature a little bit. It looks like for the one number characterizing climate sensitivity (i.e. equilibrium temperature response to doubled CO2, including fast feedbacks), paleoclimate data doesn&#039;t provide very useful constraints. (Paleoclimate data is useful for all sorts of things, like testing models, exhibiting various feedbacks, etc., but not so useful for getting a precise numerical value of this one number.)

Constraints on climate sensitivity come, among other places, from the observed 20th century warming, cooling after volcanic eruptions, the climate of the Last Glacial Maximum 20,000 years ago, and the Maunder Minimum when solar activity was low around 300 years ago. In general, temperatures are more easily measured than radiative forcing, so the uncertainties tend to come from characterizing the forcings (how much CO2, how much sulfate aerosols, how to translate their concentrations to a forcing in W/m^2). Another difficulty is that the observed temperature isn&#039;t the equilibrium temperature response, as the oceans take up heat and one has to adjust for what the eventual atmospheric temperature would be once that heat is released.

Some of the literature:
Forest et al., &lt;i&gt;Science&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;295&lt;/b&gt;, 113 (2002): use recent climate measurements to estimate 5% to 95% confidence band of 1.4 to 7.7 K for climate sensitivity. Use ocean temperature observations to help reduce the uncertainty from ocean heat uptake. (The 7.7 K end of that estimate is disturbingly large, but see below.)

Gregory et al., &lt;i&gt;Journal of Climate&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;15&lt;/b&gt;, 3117 (2002): put 5% confidence lower bound of 1.6 K, using surface temperature data and ocean temperature observations. Their probability distribution has a long upper tail.

In fact there was a paper by Roe and Baker, &lt;i&gt;Science&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;318&lt;/b&gt;, 629 (2007) that recently argued that these long tails in the direction of large temperature increase are an inherent property of the climate system, and are very difficult to constrain further.

On the other hand, Annan and Hargreaves, &lt;i&gt;Geophysical Research Letters&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;33&lt;/b&gt; L06704 (2006) put together various other estimates from observed warming, volcanic cooling, and the LGM to conclude that there is less than 5% probability that climate sensitivity is above 4.5 K. Urban and Keller, &lt;i&gt;Geophysical Research Letters&lt;/i&gt; (in press) also argue that the fat upper tails can be reduced by measuring ocean heat uptake and aerosol forcings more precisely.

In short, it seems that observational constraints tend to agree with the 1.5 K to 4.5 K estimates of climate forcing from GCMs. As far as I can tell from this quick look at things, the probability distributions emerging from the data say very clearly that the climate sensitivity is highly unlikely to be &lt;i&gt;smaller&lt;/i&gt; than 1.5 K, and as I mentioned above, &quot;climate sensitivity&quot; by definition omits slow feedbacks that potentially make the problem worse. Also, it seems that progressively better measurements and statistical techniques are chipping away at the high end of the fat tail. A most likely value somewhere in the neighborhood of 3K seems like a good bet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As promised, I&#8217;ve been looking into the literature a little bit. It looks like for the one number characterizing climate sensitivity (i.e. equilibrium temperature response to doubled <span class="caps">CO2</span>, including fast feedbacks), paleoclimate data doesn&#8217;t provide very useful constraints. (Paleoclimate data is useful for all sorts of things, like testing models, exhibiting various feedbacks, etc., but not so useful for getting a precise numerical value of this one number.)</p>

	<p>Constraints on climate sensitivity come, among other places, from the observed 20th century warming, cooling after volcanic eruptions, the climate of the Last Glacial Maximum 20,000 years ago, and the Maunder Minimum when solar activity was low around 300 years ago. In general, temperatures are more easily measured than radiative forcing, so the uncertainties tend to come from characterizing the forcings (how much <span class="caps">CO2</span>, how much sulfate aerosols, how to translate their concentrations to a forcing in W/m^2). Another difficulty is that the observed temperature isn&#8217;t the equilibrium temperature response, as the oceans take up heat and one has to adjust for what the eventual atmospheric temperature would be once that heat is released.</p>

	<p>Some of the literature:<br />
Forest et al., <i>Science</i> <b>295</b>, 113 (2002): use recent climate measurements to estimate 5% to 95% confidence band of 1.4 to 7.7 K for climate sensitivity. Use ocean temperature observations to help reduce the uncertainty from ocean heat uptake. (The 7.7 K end of that estimate is disturbingly large, but see below.)</p>

	<p>Gregory et al., <i>Journal of Climate</i> <b>15</b>, 3117 (2002): put 5% confidence lower bound of 1.6 K, using surface temperature data and ocean temperature observations. Their probability distribution has a long upper tail.</p>

	<p>In fact there was a paper by Roe and Baker, <i>Science</i> <b>318</b>, 629 (2007) that recently argued that these long tails in the direction of large temperature increase are an inherent property of the climate system, and are very difficult to constrain further.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, Annan and Hargreaves, <i>Geophysical Research Letters</i> <b>33</b> L06704 (2006) put together various other estimates from observed warming, volcanic cooling, and the <span class="caps">LGM</span> to conclude that there is less than 5% probability that climate sensitivity is above 4.5 K. Urban and Keller, <i>Geophysical Research Letters</i> (in press) also argue that the fat upper tails can be reduced by measuring ocean heat uptake and aerosol forcings more precisely.</p>

	<p>In short, it seems that observational constraints tend to agree with the 1.5 K to 4.5 K estimates of climate forcing from GCMs. As far as I can tell from this quick look at things, the probability distributions emerging from the data say very clearly that the climate sensitivity is highly unlikely to be <i>smaller</i> than 1.5 K, and as I mentioned above, &#8220;climate sensitivity&#8221; by definition omits slow feedbacks that potentially make the problem worse. Also, it seems that progressively better measurements and statistical techniques are chipping away at the high end of the fat tail. A most likely value somewhere in the neighborhood of 3K seems like a good bet.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270885</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 04:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270885</guid>
		<description>You guys still here? Political football, unless I missed something scrolling up, your last comment was at 173--don&#039;t come late to the party and think you can call the victory or even describe the battle. As for your characterisations, well it&#039;s kinda like basketball--you play with shit, you play like shit. Mr. Emerson: Honor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You guys still here? Political football, unless I missed something scrolling up, your last comment was at 173&#8212;don&#8217;t come late to the party and think you can call the victory or even describe the battle. As for your characterisations, well it&#8217;s kinda like basketball&#8212;you play with shit, you play like shit. Mr. Emerson: Honor?</p>
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		<title>By: politicalfootball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270884</link>
		<dc:creator>politicalfootball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 04:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270884</guid>
		<description>Tom Fuller, just so you know, Emerson is going around elsewhere on the Internet saying that in an epic battle of trolls, he fought you to a draw here. Emerson is a powerful and influential troll, effortlessly able to befuddle the minds of lesser folk, and I fear you may never get proper credit among the stupefied masses for what you have accomplished in this thread.

Please know that we who witnessed this, we understand that your evasions, provocations and unpredictable illogic were relentless. You wield a non sequiter the way that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ3aUmSBSbY&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Frazier employed his powerful left arm in the fifteenth round&lt;/a&gt; against Ali in their first fight.

Be assured that you have earned an honored place in the Troll Hall of Fame. A magnificent performance. Well done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom Fuller, just so you know, Emerson is going around elsewhere on the Internet saying that in an epic battle of trolls, he fought you to a draw here. Emerson is a powerful and influential troll, effortlessly able to befuddle the minds of lesser folk, and I fear you may never get proper credit among the stupefied masses for what you have accomplished in this thread.</p>

	<p>Please know that we who witnessed this, we understand that your evasions, provocations and unpredictable illogic were relentless. You wield a non sequiter the way that <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ3aUmSBSbY" rel="nofollow">Frazier employed his powerful left arm in the fifteenth round</a> against Ali in their first fight.</p>

	<p>Be assured that you have earned an honored place in the Troll Hall of Fame. A magnificent performance. Well done.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270881</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 04:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270881</guid>
		<description>My troll honor was at stake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My troll honor was at stake.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270871</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 02:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270871</guid>
		<description>John, they&#039;ve identified your fatal weakness -- you are unable to quit an argument.  They have you pinned here in a diversionary tactic while the main body of forces have attacked elsewhere.  Trollblog already has ten posts on the joys of romance in the springtime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, they&#8217;ve identified your fatal weakness&#8212;you are unable to quit an argument.  They have you pinned here in a diversionary tactic while the main body of forces have attacked elsewhere.  Trollblog already has ten posts on the joys of romance in the springtime.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270859</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270859</guid>
		<description>Just for perspective...

http://www.lies.com/wp/2009/03/27/blog-post-subhead-large/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just for perspective&#8230;</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.lies.com/wp/2009/03/27/blog-post-subhead-large/" rel="nofollow">http://www.lies.com/wp/2009/03/27/blog-post-subhead-large/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270858</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270858</guid>
		<description>Must be nice to get to use the editorial &#039;we&#039; for once, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Must be nice to get to use the editorial &#8216;we&#8217; for once, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270856</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270856</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re convinced of the calming effect of Lexapro thought, but not of its accuracy. Stay happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We&#8217;re convinced of the calming effect of Lexapro thought, but not of its accuracy. Stay happy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270855</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:46:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270855</guid>
		<description>...but I must say I didn&#039;t think CT was one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230;but I must say I didn&#8217;t think CT was one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270854</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270854</guid>
		<description>Yes, there are parts of cyberspace where a more accurate view of reality is anathema.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, there are parts of cyberspace where a more accurate view of reality is anathema.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-7/#comment-270853</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270853</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Your schtick, however, is getting stale. &lt;/i&gt;

Noted without comment. 

294: Salient, facts only muddy the waters. Cut it out. Besides, you didn&#039;t do a controlled study.

&lt;i&gt;I think my view of the world of news is more accurate, and it leads me not to rage, cynicism or fatalism. &lt;/i&gt;

The antidepressant approach to reality. If it works for you.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Your schtick, however, is getting stale. </i></p>

	<p>Noted without comment.</p>

	<p>294: Salient, facts only muddy the waters. Cut it out. Besides, you didn&#8217;t do a controlled study.</p>

	<p><i>I think my view of the world of news is more accurate, and it leads me not to rage, cynicism or fatalism. </i></p>

	<p>The antidepressant approach to reality. If it works for you&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-6/#comment-270852</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270852</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll stand by the points that I have made, although I think your description of them is a wee bit exaggerated. I note that you take issue with them. My reply: I think my view of the world of news is more accurate, and it leads me not to rage, cynicism or fatalism. Works for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ll stand by the points that I have made, although I think your description of them is a wee bit exaggerated. I note that you take issue with them. My reply: I think my view of the world of news is more accurate, and it leads me not to rage, cynicism or fatalism. Works for me.</p>
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		<title>By: salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/23/the-earth-shape-controversy-revived/comment-page-6/#comment-270851</link>
		<dc:creator>salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10172#comment-270851</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;My point is that if WaPo died tomorrow, your friends would easily get news somewhere else, and George Will would find some other journalistic bastion to publish him.&lt;/i&gt;

No, your point has been (for example) that people should not encourage the WaPo to fire George Will (245); that writers of opinion pieces have a license to lie and should have a license to lie and that editors ought to bear no responsibility for correcting these lies (158.3); that we should see license to lie in opinion pieces as a good thing (158.4); that newspapers like the WaPo have no substantial effect on discourse (158.5). These are the points you have made, that I have taken issue with.

But I&#039;ll respond to your latest point, #297. My reply: So what? Points of the form &quot;if X disappeared, we&#039;d all get on&quot; are usually not worth making. Random example:  If CT went permanently offline for some reason, we&#039;d go find something else to do. If the U.S. monetary system spontaneously collapsed this moment, we&#039;d find some way to reconstruct some kind of economy that keeps us alive and variously employed. Why should I let that kind of fatalism guide my reactions to events in the world?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>My point is that if WaPo died tomorrow, your friends would easily get news somewhere else, and George Will would find some other journalistic bastion to publish him.</i></p>

	<p>No, your point has been (for example) that people should not encourage the WaPo to fire George Will (245); that writers of opinion pieces have a license to lie and should have a license to lie and that editors ought to bear no responsibility for correcting these lies (158.3); that we should see license to lie in opinion pieces as a good thing (158.4); that newspapers like the WaPo have no substantial effect on discourse (158.5). These are the points you have made, that I have taken issue with.</p>

	<p>But I&#8217;ll respond to your latest point, #297. My reply: So what? Points of the form &#8220;if X disappeared, we&#8217;d all get on&#8221; are usually not worth making. Random example:  If CT went permanently offline for some reason, we&#8217;d go find something else to do. If the U.S. monetary system spontaneously collapsed this moment, we&#8217;d find some way to reconstruct some kind of economy that keeps us alive and variously employed. Why should I let that kind of fatalism guide my reactions to events in the world?</p>
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