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	<title>Comments on: Opening the Overton Window</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: L2P</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271243</link>
		<dc:creator>L2P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 02:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271243</guid>
		<description>&quot;The essential problem is that the decisions you would make to be tax efficient in the UK tend not to be the same as those you would take in the US, because of course different activities are taxed differently, so that questions of pensions and various investments become very complicated indeed.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;Figuring out your taxes&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;planning my most effective tax avoidance schemes&lt;/i&gt; are two entirely different things.  It&#039;s not much of a burden for the average person to figure out their non-residence taxes.  I get taxed in twenty different jurisdictions - not complicated at all.  Trying to figure out whether it&#039;d be a slightly lower tax burden to shift French stocks to British bonds may be a pain, but then that&#039;s my problem, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The essential problem is that the decisions you would make to be tax efficient in the UK tend not to be the same as those you would take in the US, because of course different activities are taxed differently, so that questions of pensions and various investments become very complicated indeed.&#8221;</p>

	<p><i>Figuring out your taxes</i> and <i>planning my most effective tax avoidance schemes</i> are two entirely different things.  It&#8217;s not much of a burden for the average person to figure out their non-residence taxes.  I get taxed in twenty different jurisdictions &#8211; not complicated at all.  Trying to figure out whether it&#8217;d be a slightly lower tax burden to shift French stocks to British bonds may be a pain, but then that&#8217;s my problem, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271181</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271181</guid>
		<description>P O&#039;Neill, I haven&#039;t followed the non-dom issue at all, but a 30k stg fee sounds like a good start. In general, I&#039;m hoping for precisely this kind of ratchet effect - pressure to clean up tax havens leading to scrutiny of &quot;legitimate tax avoidance&quot; and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">P O</span>&#8217;Neill, I haven&#8217;t followed the non-dom issue at all, but a 30k stg fee sounds like a good start. In general, I&#8217;m hoping for precisely this kind of ratchet effect &#8211; pressure to clean up tax havens leading to scrutiny of &#8220;legitimate tax avoidance&#8221; and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: otto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271175</link>
		<dc:creator>otto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271175</guid>
		<description>&quot;Yeah, it takes me anywhere up to six hours a year to plug the numbers into TurboTax&quot;
To do your US taxes as an American, yes? Or to do your US taxes as a resident in the UK? The essential problem is that the decisions you would make to be tax efficient in the UK tend not to be the same as those you would take in the US, because of course different activities are taxed differently, so that questions of pensions and various investments become very complicated indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Yeah, it takes me anywhere up to six hours a year to plug the numbers into TurboTax&#8221;<br />
To do your US taxes as an American, yes? Or to do your US taxes as a resident in the UK? The essential problem is that the decisions you would make to be tax efficient in the UK tend not to be the same as those you would take in the US, because of course different activities are taxed differently, so that questions of pensions and various investments become very complicated indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271173</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271173</guid>
		<description>Currently, the reciprocal tax exclusion arrangement between the US and the UK excludes the first approximately $80K earned in the UK from US tax. Interest, dividends, etc., earned in the US are still subject to tax (of course, unless one is earning a lot of taxable interest in the US, this generally falls within the deduction limit, and so is also excluded).

And that whole non-dom thing does seem to have quietly slipped off the radar since it was first broached and all those invaluable rich people threatened to leave if they actually had to pay any tax. To which I say, fine, go; it means &lt;i&gt;Dragon&#039;s Den&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;The Apprentice&lt;/i&gt; will be cancelled in short order, which can only be a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Currently, the reciprocal tax exclusion arrangement between the US and the UK excludes the first approximately $80K earned in the UK from US tax. Interest, dividends, etc., earned in the US are still subject to tax (of course, unless one is earning a lot of taxable interest in the US, this generally falls within the deduction limit, and so is also excluded).</p>

	<p>And that whole non-dom thing does seem to have quietly slipped off the radar since it was first broached and all those invaluable rich people threatened to leave if they actually had to pay any tax. To which I say, fine, go; it means <i>Dragon&#8217;s Den</i> and <i>The Apprentice</i> will be cancelled in short order, which can only be a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271167</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271167</guid>
		<description>dirty davey, maybe I could go for that. I&#039;d have to give it some thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>dirty davey, maybe I could go for that. I&#8217;d have to give it some thought.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271166</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271166</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll believe that Gordon Brown wants to shut down tax havens when he shuts down the non-dom category of taxpayer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ll believe that Gordon Brown wants to shut down tax havens when he shuts down the non-dom category of taxpayer.</p>
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		<title>By: Dirty Davey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271160</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirty Davey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271160</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m going to use Brazilian roads, I really should pay Brazilian taxes. Having to pay both Brazilian and US taxes is burdensome and unfair, but it is the US taxes that should go, as I will get little in services from the US government.&quot;

Require the taxes from Americans, but have a US tax credit for taxes paid to the Brazilian gov&#039;t, one-to-one.  If the other country is charging reasonable or high taxes, you don&#039;t get double-taxed, but if the other country is a tax dodge it doesn&#039;t get you out of paying in the US.

(This is basically the rule North Carolina has for &quot;use tax&quot;, that is, sales tax on out-of-state purchases.  You get a 1-1 credit for sales tax paid in another state, so you legally only owe the full tax if you purchased without paying ANY tax.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m going to use Brazilian roads, I really should pay Brazilian taxes. Having to pay both Brazilian and US taxes is burdensome and unfair, but it is the US taxes that should go, as I will get little in services from the US government.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Require the taxes from Americans, but have a US tax credit for taxes paid to the Brazilian gov&#8217;t, one-to-one.  If the other country is charging reasonable or high taxes, you don&#8217;t get double-taxed, but if the other country is a tax dodge it doesn&#8217;t get you out of paying in the US.</p>

	<p>(This is basically the rule North Carolina has for &#8220;use tax&#8221;, that is, sales tax on out-of-state purchases.  You get a 1-1 credit for sales tax paid in another state, so you legally only owe the full tax if you purchased without paying <span class="caps">ANY</span> tax.)</p>
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		<title>By: David Moles</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271158</link>
		<dc:creator>David Moles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271158</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it takes me anywhere up to six hours a year to plug the numbers into TurboTax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, it takes me anywhere up to six hours a year to plug the numbers into TurboTax.</p>
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		<title>By: otto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271150</link>
		<dc:creator>otto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271150</guid>
		<description>&quot;How about every country adopting the US principle that citizens and residents are taxed at home based on their worldwide income, no matter where they live?&quot;

Have you any idea what a logistical nightmare this is for Americans living abroad, even if - after the allowances and double taxation treatment - they end up being liable for little tax?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;How about every country adopting the US principle that citizens and residents are taxed at home based on their worldwide income, no matter where they live?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Have you any idea what a logistical nightmare this is for Americans living abroad, even if &#8211; after the allowances and double taxation treatment &#8211; they end up being liable for little tax?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271149</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271149</guid>
		<description>I changed my example from France to Brazil and neglected the change at one point. Example doesn&#039;t matter, but please read as consistent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I changed my example from France to Brazil and neglected the change at one point. Example doesn&#8217;t matter, but please read as consistent.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271148</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271148</guid>
		<description>P.O., how about the US conform to the rest of the world instead of vice versa?  If I live in France I&#039;m going to call Brazilian police if I get robbed, I&#039;m going to use Brazilian roads, I really should pay Brazilian taxes. Having to pay *both* Brazilian and US taxes is burdensome and unfair, but it is the US taxes that should go, as I will get little in services from the US government. In essence, the US is penalizing its citizens for leaving, which puts &quot;love it or leave it&quot; in a different light. In fact, I will defend tax havens until this is changed.

Gary, are you sure?  I was under the impression that exemption had recently been revoked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>P.O., how about the US conform to the rest of the world instead of vice versa?  If I live in France I&#8217;m going to call Brazilian police if I get robbed, I&#8217;m going to use Brazilian roads, I really should pay Brazilian taxes. Having to pay <strong>both</strong> Brazilian and US taxes is burdensome and unfair, but it is the US taxes that should go, as I will get little in services from the US government. In essence, the US is penalizing its citizens for leaving, which puts &#8220;love it or leave it&#8221; in a different light. In fact, I will defend tax havens until this is changed.</p>

	<p>Gary, are you sure?  I was under the impression that exemption had recently been revoked.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271143</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271143</guid>
		<description>How functional would the OECD be if it cut off economic interactions with the U.S. and the UK?  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13382279&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;They offer all the benefits of traditional tax havens, as do many other OECD countries&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How functional would the <span class="caps">OECD</span> be if it cut off economic interactions with the U.S. and the UK?  <a href="http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13382279" rel="nofollow">They offer all the benefits of traditional tax havens, as do many other <span class="caps">OECD</span> countries</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Franceschini</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271142</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Franceschini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271142</guid>
		<description>&quot;How about every country adopting the US principle that citizens and residents are taxed at home based on their worldwide income, no matter where they live?&quot;

It&#039;s not quite so clear cut. Americans can exclude roughly the first $100K of their income from being taxable. There&#039;s a lot of careful accounting that occurs amongst US nationals abroad to avoid paying anything at all to the IRS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;How about every country adopting the US principle that citizens and residents are taxed at home based on their worldwide income, no matter where they live?&#8221;</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not quite so clear cut. Americans can exclude roughly the first $100K of their income from being taxable. There&#8217;s a lot of careful accounting that occurs amongst US nationals abroad to avoid paying anything at all to the <span class="caps">IRS</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271141</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271141</guid>
		<description>Not a word in Buiter&#039;s proposal about the huge dodge represented by tax concepts of residence and domicile.  You could shut down every tax haven and the scope for tax avoidance would still be massive.  How about every country adopting the US principle that citizens and residents are taxed at home based on their worldwide income, no matter where they live?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not a word in Buiter&#8217;s proposal about the huge dodge represented by tax concepts of residence and domicile.  You could shut down every tax haven and the scope for tax avoidance would still be massive.  How about every country adopting the US principle that citizens and residents are taxed at home based on their worldwide income, no matter where they live?</p>
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		<title>By: Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/31/opening-the-overton-window/comment-page-1/#comment-271133</link>
		<dc:creator>Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10313#comment-271133</guid>
		<description>End yet,  she moves...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>End yet,  she moves&#8230;</p>
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