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	<title>Comments on: Reducing inequality: what&#8217;s the problem?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:16:39 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Arion</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272844</link>
		<dc:creator>Arion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272844</guid>
		<description>To a great extent, salaries in the finance/CEO sector are driven by a kind of herd phenomenon:  If your competing corporation has a 5 mil CEO, then you better get one too.  It&#039;s glam to have one of those. Naturally the CEOs themselves hardly mind. I&#039;m convinced the CEO world looked over at entertainer and pro athlete salaries and figured &quot;if them, why not me?  I contribute as much to the body politic as Madonna&#039;.  It&#039;s a classic market oriented fallacy to suppose that CEOs are primarily motivated by dollars.  by and large the motivation is the challenge of doing the job well. Compare the very modest salaries of Gineen at ITT or Engine Charlie Wilson at GM.  They did as well or better than Jack Welch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To a great extent, salaries in the finance/CEO sector are driven by a kind of herd phenomenon:  If your competing corporation has a 5 mil <span class="caps">CEO</span>, then you better get one too.  It&#8217;s glam to have one of those. Naturally the CEOs themselves hardly mind. I&#8217;m convinced the <span class="caps">CEO</span> world looked over at entertainer and pro athlete salaries and figured &#8220;if them, why not me?  I contribute as much to the body politic as Madonna&#8217;.  It&#8217;s a classic market oriented fallacy to suppose that CEOs are primarily motivated by dollars.  by and large the motivation is the challenge of doing the job well. Compare the very modest salaries of Gineen at <span class="caps">ITT</span> or Engine Charlie Wilson at GM.  They did as well or better than Jack Welch.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272705</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272705</guid>
		<description>Lane, yep--somehow I must have written down the wrong number on definition 14 income, which led me astray.  (In case anyone cares, $46,699 above should be $43,629.) Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lane, yep&#8212;somehow I must have written down the wrong number on definition 14 income, which led me astray.  (In case anyone cares, $46,699 above should be $43,629.) Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272657</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272657</guid>
		<description>Or of them.  Whatever, smartypantses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Or of them.  Whatever, smartypantses.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272655</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272655</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t think it’s mysterious at all. For better or ill, the CEO can have a huge impact on a company’s profits. &lt;/blockquote&gt;I agree with this and the rest of your comment, but I think the past year has shown that CEO search committees could be doing a better job.

So:  we can&#039;t guarantee an efficient and rational market for CEOs, but we &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; guarantee an efficient use of their salaries if the government takes a large portion of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s mysterious at all. For better or ill, the <span class="caps">CEO</span> can have a huge impact on a company&#8217;s profits. </blockquote>I agree with this and the rest of your comment, but I think the past year has shown that <span class="caps">CEO</span> search committees could be doing a better job.</p>

	<p>So:  we can&#8217;t guarantee an efficient and rational market for CEOs, but we <i>can</i> guarantee an efficient use of their salaries if the government takes a large portion of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Daryl McCullough</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272654</link>
		<dc:creator>Daryl McCullough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272654</guid>
		<description>Tom West writes:  &lt;blockquote&gt;I’ve never been quite comfortable with current executive pay levels, but I’ve also not been able to understand why owners and stock holders are willing to pay that much...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s mysterious at all. For better or ill, the CEO can have a huge impact on a company&#039;s profits. Hiring one CEO rather than another can make billions of dollars difference in the company&#039;s bottom line. So it&#039;s a false economy to try to save a few million dollars on CEO salaries. That doesn&#039;t mean that spending more on CEO salaries is worth it, but it means that within a huge range of CEO salaries, getting the best CEO is higher priority than saving money on CEO salaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom West writes:  <blockquote>I&#8217;ve never been quite comfortable with current executive pay levels, but I&#8217;ve also not been able to understand why owners and stock holders are willing to pay that much&#8230;</blockquote></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s mysterious at all. For better or ill, the <span class="caps">CEO</span> can have a huge impact on a company&#8217;s profits. Hiring one <span class="caps">CEO</span> rather than another can make billions of dollars difference in the company&#8217;s bottom line. So it&#8217;s a false economy to try to save a few million dollars on <span class="caps">CEO</span> salaries. That doesn&#8217;t mean that spending more on <span class="caps">CEO</span> salaries is worth it, but it means that within a huge range of <span class="caps">CEO</span> salaries, getting the best <span class="caps">CEO</span> is higher priority than saving money on <span class="caps">CEO</span> salaries.</p>
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		<title>By: lane</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272647</link>
		<dc:creator>lane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272647</guid>
		<description>Thomas (#52 and 57): Using definition 14, the rise in median household (rather than family) income is about $3,000 more with those data. That changes the picture, but only a little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thomas (#52 and 57): Using definition 14, the rise in median household (rather than family) income is about $3,000 more with those data. That changes the picture, but only a little.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272567</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272567</guid>
		<description>Tom, in privately owned companies - isn&#039;t the CEO usually (if not always) the owner himself? Or owner&#039;s son? 

The CEO of Berkshire Hathaway is paid $100K/year.  Teh guy likes to manage businesses, you see; that&#039;s his idea of fun. According to wikipedia &quot;...in 2007, he earned a total compensation of $175,000.&quot; It&#039;s a very big company, plenty of responsibility. It&#039;s also a very successful company. Unless, of course, you measure success by the amount of dough funneled into executives&#039; bank accounts. By that measurement it&#039;s a total failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom, in privately owned companies &#8211; isn&#8217;t the <span class="caps">CEO</span> usually (if not always) the owner himself? Or owner&#8217;s son?</p>

	<p>The <span class="caps">CEO</span> of Berkshire Hathaway is paid $100K/year.  Teh guy likes to manage businesses, you see; that&#8217;s his idea of fun. According to wikipedia &#8220;&#8230;in 2007, he earned a total compensation of $175,000.&#8221; It&#8217;s a very big company, plenty of responsibility. It&#8217;s also a very successful company. Unless, of course, you measure success by the amount of dough funneled into executives&#8217; bank accounts. By that measurement it&#8217;s a total failure.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom West</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272564</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272564</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never been quite comfortable with current executive pay levels, but I&#039;ve also not been able to understand why owners and stock holders are willing to pay that much (and from what I have seen, it&#039;s not just that the game is rigged by the boards, private owners seem to feel that their executives are worth similar amounts and that money is coming from their own pockets.)

I find it hard to believe that no company has succeeded in paying reasonable executive compensation and been rewarded for it without others following suit.  Could the market have failed so thoroughly?

My own guess is that owners, stock holders, and those that companies must deal with to survive tend to use compensation as a metric for competence.  Paying your executives what we would consider reasonable salaries signals to everyone that your executives are incompetent.  (After all, if they were competent, they&#039;d go elsewhere.)  For businesses that depend on trading partners, that could be fatal.

One correlation that I have heard is that the compensation versus company size had remained roughly constant.  It&#039;s that companies are many times bigger than they used to be.  Maybe you pay in relation to responsibility rather than to competence.  Do supervisors of bigger school board earn more than for the same job in smaller school boards?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve never been quite comfortable with current executive pay levels, but I&#8217;ve also not been able to understand why owners and stock holders are willing to pay that much (and from what I have seen, it&#8217;s not just that the game is rigged by the boards, private owners seem to feel that their executives are worth similar amounts and that money is coming from their own pockets.)</p>

	<p>I find it hard to believe that no company has succeeded in paying reasonable executive compensation and been rewarded for it without others following suit.  Could the market have failed so thoroughly?</p>

	<p>My own guess is that owners, stock holders, and those that companies must deal with to survive tend to use compensation as a metric for competence.  Paying your executives what we would consider reasonable salaries signals to everyone that your executives are incompetent.  (After all, if they were competent, they&#8217;d go elsewhere.)  For businesses that depend on trading partners, that could be fatal.</p>

	<p>One correlation that I have heard is that the compensation versus company size had remained roughly constant.  It&#8217;s that companies are many times bigger than they used to be.  Maybe you pay in relation to responsibility rather than to competence.  Do supervisors of bigger school board earn more than for the same job in smaller school boards?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272505</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272505</guid>
		<description>OK, so I ran the calculations using the handy online BLS inflation calculator (which I think uses the CPI-U, not CPI-U-RS, but probably close enough for our purposes), and, using the numbers from definition 14 I described in comment 57 above, it looks to me that in 2003 the median family income in 1979 dollars was 1.3x the median family income in 1979.  So, by my calculation, the divergence in the second graph would be much less sharp if we use the best definition of income.    Am I missing something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, so I ran the calculations using the handy online <span class="caps">BLS</span> inflation calculator (which I think uses the <span class="caps">CPI</span>-U, not <span class="caps">CPI</span>-U-RS, but probably close enough for our purposes), and, using the numbers from definition 14 I described in comment 57 above, it looks to me that in 2003 the median family income in 1979 dollars was 1.3x the median family income in 1979.  So, by my calculation, the divergence in the second graph would be much less sharp if we use the best definition of income.    Am I missing something?</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272478</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272478</guid>
		<description>You beg to differ, and yet it seems we agree after all.

My suggestion is that real-world production can be better modeled with a Leontief function, where factors are combined in fixed proportions and so the entire marginal product can be economically attributed to any of them. The division of output is then the result of a bargaining, or more broadly social, process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You beg to differ, and yet it seems we agree after all.</p>

	<p>My suggestion is that real-world production can be better modeled with a Leontief function, where factors are combined in fixed proportions and so the entire marginal product can be economically attributed to any of them. The division of output is then the result of a bargaining, or more broadly social, process.</p>
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		<title>By: ScentOfViolets</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272476</link>
		<dc:creator>ScentOfViolets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272476</guid>
		<description>I beg to differ[1]; exorbitant executive pay has been justified on the grounds that these people are &#039;worth&#039; just that much, i.e., that is they are said to provide a rather large added value.

But if this is the case, how is this mysterious &#039;added value&#039; measured?  Iow, we know that there have been productivity gains of businesses as a whole by a certain reckoning.  How do we know that the executive class are the ones responsible for these gains?  Other than their say-so, of course.  Especially given [1] in other parts of the large enterprise which are susceptible to such crude measurements.

[1]blorgs can be any part of a product or process of course; we&#039;re not reduced to measuring only those outputs which are essentially handicrafts produced by a single person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I beg to differ[1]; exorbitant executive pay has been justified on the grounds that these people are &#8216;worth&#8217; just that much, i.e., that is they are said to provide a rather large added value.</p>

	<p>But if this is the case, how is this mysterious &#8216;added value&#8217; measured?  Iow, we know that there have been productivity gains of businesses as a whole by a certain reckoning.  How do we know that the executive class are the ones responsible for these gains?  Other than their say-so, of course.  Especially given [1] in other parts of the large enterprise which are susceptible to such crude measurements.</p>

	<p>[1]blorgs can be any part of a product or process of course; we&#8217;re not reduced to measuring only those outputs which are essentially handicrafts produced by a single person.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272473</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272473</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Not all jobs could be so bluntly assessed of course&lt;/i&gt;

Nicely understated. Matter of fact, I reckon that there is hardly any blorg in a modern economy whose marginal output can be ascribed to one person&#039;s (or one factor&#039;s) contribution. If we had a productivity-o-meter, this whole discussion would not be taking place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Not all jobs could be so bluntly assessed of course</i></p>

	<p>Nicely understated. Matter of fact, I reckon that there is hardly any blorg in a modern economy whose marginal output can be ascribed to one person&#8217;s (or one factor&#8217;s) contribution. If we had a productivity-o-meter, this whole discussion would not be taking place.</p>
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		<title>By: Omega Centauri</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272472</link>
		<dc:creator>Omega Centauri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272472</guid>
		<description>I think maybe we need to think of at least two clases of utility. The first class, might be represented by the &quot;living wage&quot; concept, an amount of income which provides a tolerable living. After tax income above this level, can be spent on luxuries or invested in an attempt to secure greater future income. Clearly the marginal utility of a unit increase in income to an individual or family is dramatically different in the two cases. I think a good case might be made for the luxury utility to be similar to the LOG function. That would imply that an increase from say $.5M per year to $1M/year would have roughly the same effect as an increase from $100M to $200m. But, clearly the cost to society of the later is much higher. If you take that to be the case, then the effect on the very rich of a unit change in wealth is pretty small. If I woke up tommorow to the new that I won $100M or to the new that I won $1B, I doubt my reaction would differ much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think maybe we need to think of at least two clases of utility. The first class, might be represented by the &#8220;living wage&#8221; concept, an amount of income which provides a tolerable living. After tax income above this level, can be spent on luxuries or invested in an attempt to secure greater future income. Clearly the marginal utility of a unit increase in income to an individual or family is dramatically different in the two cases. I think a good case might be made for the luxury utility to be similar to the <span class="caps">LOG</span> function. That would imply that an increase from say $.5M per year to $1M/year would have roughly the same effect as an increase from $100M to $200m. But, clearly the cost to society of the later is much higher. If you take that to be the case, then the effect on the very rich of a unit change in wealth is pretty small. If I woke up tommorow to the new that I won $100M or to the new that I won $1B, I doubt my reaction would differ much.</p>
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		<title>By: ScentOfViolets</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272469</link>
		<dc:creator>ScentOfViolets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272469</guid>
		<description>For a specific job you mean?  Could you be more specific?  If someone produces 100 blorgs in year 0 and 160 blorgs in year 1, that would be a productivity increase of 160%.  Not all jobs could be so bluntly assessed of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For a specific job you mean?  Could you be more specific?  If someone produces 100 blorgs in year 0 and 160 blorgs in year 1, that would be a productivity increase of 160%.  Not all jobs could be so bluntly assessed of course.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/13/reducing-inequality-whats-the-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-272442</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10498#comment-272442</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;if a person’s increase in productivity is 60% higher this year than last &lt;/i&gt;

How would you know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>if a person&#8217;s increase in productivity is 60% higher this year than last </i></p>

	<p>How would you know?</p>
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