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	<title>Comments on: Reducing inequality: are unions the answer?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272763</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272763</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/#comment-272408&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@David Wright 04.14.09 at 5:36 pm&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;i&gt;You assert that this is well anti-correlated with Gini coefficient, but you don’t make the case for that assertion in your post. The OECD data on Gini coefficients are available here. Casual perusal indicates there will be good anti-correlation, but I haven’t computed it or generated a scattergram.&lt;/i&gt;

Oddly enough, I did that a few weeks ago &lt;a href=&quot;http://progressiveresource.com/?p=37&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  r = -.659</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/#comment-272408" rel="nofollow">@David Wright 04.14.09 at 5:36 pm</a><br />
<i>You assert that this is well anti-correlated with Gini coefficient, but you don&#8217;t make the case for that assertion in your post. The <span class="caps">OECD</span> data on Gini coefficients are available here. Casual perusal indicates there will be good anti-correlation, but I haven&#8217;t computed it or generated a scattergram.</i></p>

	<p>Oddly enough, I did that a few weeks ago <a href="http://progressiveresource.com/?p=37" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  r = -.659</p>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272698</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Further and belatedly to David Wright&#039;s comment (#10) about bargaining coverage: the C&amp;A Commission used regularly to magnify bargaining power by &quot;roping in&quot; workers covered by awards other than the award varied. These decisions were regularly attacked by employers on the grounds that they were inflationary etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Further and belatedly to David Wright&#8217;s comment (#10) about bargaining coverage: the C&#038;A Commission used regularly to magnify bargaining power by &#8220;roping in&#8221; workers covered by awards other than the award varied. These decisions were regularly attacked by employers on the grounds that they were inflationary etc.</p>
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		<title>By: StevenAttewell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272546</link>
		<dc:creator>StevenAttewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272546</guid>
		<description>James: 

By definition, a union rep does not have &quot;the same kind of fear power that is considered evil when used by the employers.&quot; Union reps can&#039;t order you to attend a meeting or watch a movie or read a pamphlet, can&#039;t threaten to cancel the health care plan and the pension if the union comes in, can&#039;t threaten to shut down the plant or replace everyone with illegal immigrants or threaten to call la migra on you, can&#039;t reassign you to the midnight shift or raise your daily quotas by 50%, can&#039;t accuse you of stealing company property, can&#039;t fire you for laziness/insubordination/other-excuse-of-the-week, and they can&#039;t order supervisors to spy on you or be fired (supervisors aren&#039;t covered under labor law, see?).  

The only kinds of fear power a union rep could have are already illegal, and in any case, it&#039;s highly counter-productive to try to sign people up using fear - sure you might get a card, but you&#039;re not going to get a member who&#039;ll attend meetings, who&#039;ll maintain the provisions of the contract, who&#039;ll walk the picket line, who&#039;ll man phonebanks and walk precincts, etc. 

Shortening the time for elections won&#039;t solve things, because employers can just up the pressure of their tactics, spend more money in a shorter time, and because a lot of the power imbalance is quite legal - captive audience meetings, required one-on-one meetings, forcing supervisors to spy, threatening closure/cancellation of benefits, and so forth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>James:</p>

	<p>By definition, a union rep does not have &#8220;the same kind of fear power that is considered evil when used by the employers.&#8221; Union reps can&#8217;t order you to attend a meeting or watch a movie or read a pamphlet, can&#8217;t threaten to cancel the health care plan and the pension if the union comes in, can&#8217;t threaten to shut down the plant or replace everyone with illegal immigrants or threaten to call la migra on you, can&#8217;t reassign you to the midnight shift or raise your daily quotas by 50%, can&#8217;t accuse you of stealing company property, can&#8217;t fire you for laziness/insubordination/other-excuse-of-the-week, and they can&#8217;t order supervisors to spy on you or be fired (supervisors aren&#8217;t covered under labor law, see?).</p>

	<p>The only kinds of fear power a union rep could have are already illegal, and in any case, it&#8217;s highly counter-productive to try to sign people up using fear &#8211; sure you might get a card, but you&#8217;re not going to get a member who&#8217;ll attend meetings, who&#8217;ll maintain the provisions of the contract, who&#8217;ll walk the picket line, who&#8217;ll man phonebanks and walk precincts, etc.</p>

	<p>Shortening the time for elections won&#8217;t solve things, because employers can just up the pressure of their tactics, spend more money in a shorter time, and because a lot of the power imbalance is quite legal &#8211; captive audience meetings, required one-on-one meetings, forcing supervisors to spy, threatening closure/cancellation of benefits, and so forth.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272543</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272543</guid>
		<description>So the problem is not secret balots but that employers are able to legaly or illegaly convince the employees to vote no.  So the EFCA is designed to give Union reps the same kind of fear power that is considered evil when used by the employers.  Not finding this a convincing arguement.  

A recommendation suggested by a Union advocate was to keep the secret ballots but greatly shorten the time between the call for union vote and the vote itself.  This limits the length of time the employer has act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So the problem is not secret balots but that employers are able to legaly or illegaly convince the employees to vote no.  So the <span class="caps">EFCA</span> is designed to give Union reps the same kind of fear power that is considered evil when used by the employers.  Not finding this a convincing arguement.</p>

	<p>A recommendation suggested by a Union advocate was to keep the secret ballots but greatly shorten the time between the call for union vote and the vote itself.  This limits the length of time the employer has act.</p>
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		<title>By: lane</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272525</link>
		<dc:creator>lane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272525</guid>
		<description>David Wright (#10): The chart you&#039;re looking for is on p. 121 of my book &lt;em&gt;Jobs with Equality&lt;/em&gt;. There&#039;s a fairly strong negative correlation: high bargaining coverage is associated with low earnings inequality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>David Wright (#10): The chart you&#8217;re looking for is on p. 121 of my book <em>Jobs with Equality</em>. There&#8217;s a fairly strong negative correlation: high bargaining coverage is associated with low earnings inequality.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272524</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272524</guid>
		<description>Interestingly, the problem doesn&#039;t seem to be the secret ballot...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interestingly, the problem doesn&#8217;t seem to be the secret ballot&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: StevenAttewell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272457</link>
		<dc:creator>StevenAttewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272457</guid>
		<description>James: the reason that EFCA has been introduced is specifically that &quot;Secret ballots are&quot; NOT  &quot;a successful and time test method for allowing people to vote their preference without threat of reprisal.&quot; As this (http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/dropping-the-ax-2009-03.pdf) CEPR report shows, in 26% of election campaigns, workers are illegally fired for their union activity. In 92% of union elections, employers hold mandatory group &quot;captive audience&quot; vote-no meetings, and in 78% of union elections, employers order supervisors to hold one-on-one meetings with their employees ( Kate Bronfenbrenner, Uneasy Terrain: The Impact of Capital Mobility on Workers, Wages and Union Organizing, U.S. Trade Deficit Review Commission, 2000).  This is not a successful process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>James: the reason that <span class="caps">EFCA</span> has been introduced is specifically that &#8220;Secret ballots are&#8221; <span class="caps">NOT  </span>&#8220;a successful and time test method for allowing people to vote their preference without threat of reprisal.&#8221; As this (<a href="http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/dropping-the-ax-2009-03.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/dropping-the-ax-2009-03.pdf</a>) <span class="caps">CEPR</span> report shows, in 26% of election campaigns, workers are illegally fired for their union activity. In 92% of union elections, employers hold mandatory group &#8220;captive audience&#8221; vote-no meetings, and in 78% of union elections, employers order supervisors to hold one-on-one meetings with their employees ( Kate Bronfenbrenner, Uneasy Terrain: The Impact of Capital Mobility on Workers, Wages and Union Organizing, U.S. Trade Deficit Review Commission, 2000).  This is not a successful process.</p>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272454</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272454</guid>
		<description>I tried to download Prof. Kenworthy&#039;s link at (http://cows.org/joel/pdf/a_043.pdf) but got a message that the download was damaged and couldn&#039;t be opened by Adobe. Is there another  link which might produce a readable download? Maybe if we had the name of the paper we could find it at COWS.

Salacious, I suspect Prof. Kenworthy&#039;s &quot;just society&quot; refers to Galbraith&#039;s &quot;countervailing power&quot; or similar concept, not a moral imperative.

I&#039;m a little surprised that Prof. Kenworthy didn&#039;t refer to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.econ.ubc.ca/ine/papers/wp005.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the work of David Card&lt;/a&gt; (.pdf) and others who have published with him. 

Finally, I wonder whether Prof. Kenworthy realises that Australia is closer in time to an era of greater union influence than is the US. It was only in the later phases of the Keating Govt. (from 1991) and then the Howard Govts. (from 1996) that a systematic attack on union influence (as opposed to ad hoc fulminations) became a major policy plank of Australian Govts.  If Prof. Kenworthy is a little uncertain of the Australian background, he could try &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MULR/2000/33.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this paper&lt;/a&gt; as an introduction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I tried to download Prof. Kenworthy&#8217;s link at (<a href="http://cows.org/joel/pdf/a_043.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://cows.org/joel/pdf/a_043.pdf</a>) but got a message that the download was damaged and couldn&#8217;t be opened by Adobe. Is there another  link which might produce a readable download? Maybe if we had the name of the paper we could find it at <span class="caps">COWS</span>.</p>

	<p>Salacious, I suspect Prof. Kenworthy&#8217;s &#8220;just society&#8221; refers to Galbraith&#8217;s &#8220;countervailing power&#8221; or similar concept, not a moral imperative.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m a little surprised that Prof. Kenworthy didn&#8217;t refer to <a href="http://www.econ.ubc.ca/ine/papers/wp005.pdf" rel="nofollow">the work of David Card</a> (.pdf) and others who have published with him.</p>

	<p>Finally, I wonder whether Prof. Kenworthy realises that Australia is closer in time to an era of greater union influence than is the US. It was only in the later phases of the Keating Govt. (from 1991) and then the Howard Govts. (from 1996) that a systematic attack on union influence (as opposed to ad hoc fulminations) became a major policy plank of Australian Govts.  If Prof. Kenworthy is a little uncertain of the Australian background, he could try <a href="http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MULR/2000/33.html" rel="nofollow">this paper</a> as an introduction.</p>
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		<title>By: StevenAttewell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272422</link>
		<dc:creator>StevenAttewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272422</guid>
		<description>Sebastian:

Union density refers to the proportion of the entire workforce that&#039;s represented by unions. Now, the possibility that there are more non-union than union people being layed off is a real one, but the same statistics that give us the density rate also keep track of the whole numbers of union workers - and those went up by about 400,000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sebastian:</p>

	<p>Union density refers to the proportion of the entire workforce that&#8217;s represented by unions. Now, the possibility that there are more non-union than union people being layed off is a real one, but the same statistics that give us the density rate also keep track of the whole numbers of union workers &#8211; and those went up by about 400,000.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272420</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272420</guid>
		<description>And for employers to shape those preferences by making credible (though often insincere) threats of exit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And for employers to shape those preferences by making credible (though often insincere) threats of exit.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272417</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272417</guid>
		<description>Even if Unions represent the best possible solution for wage inequality, card check still seems like an bad idea.  Secret ballots are a successful and time test method for allowing people to vote their preference without threat of reprisal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Even if Unions represent the best possible solution for wage inequality, card check still seems like an bad idea.  Secret ballots are a successful and time test method for allowing people to vote their preference without threat of reprisal.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan in Euroland</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272415</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan in Euroland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272415</guid>
		<description>Richard Epstein believes that the mandatory arbitration provision of the EFCA could be &lt;a href=&quot;http://tv.nationalreview.com/uncommonknowledge/post/?q=ZmRkNDk3MzJhZjc5MWNhMDU4ZDhhZWE2ZjFkNzg1MTk=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ruled unconstitutional at 9-0&lt;/a&gt;.   Obviously he as a different political position than you, but I do find it interesting that he thinks that the Stevens-Souter-Ginsburg-Breyer wing of the court would not go for this provision.  (Note his actual paper on the topic is &lt;a href=&quot;http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1337185&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard Epstein believes that the mandatory arbitration provision of the <span class="caps">EFCA</span> could be <a href="http://tv.nationalreview.com/uncommonknowledge/post/?q=ZmRkNDk3MzJhZjc5MWNhMDU4ZDhhZWE2ZjFkNzg1MTk=" rel="nofollow">ruled unconstitutional at 9-0</a>.   Obviously he as a different political position than you, but I do find it interesting that he thinks that the Stevens-Souter-Ginsburg-Breyer wing of the court would not go for this provision.  (Note his actual paper on the topic is <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1337185" rel="nofollow">here.</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom West</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272414</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272414</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Unions aren’t the answer, for the simple reason that unions are not appropriate for every type of worker. And if you only have unions for some workers, that will obviously lead to inequity.&lt;/i&gt;

Not necessarily.  Unionization is most useful when the market clearing wage rate is much lower than the value the employee contributes to the company.  For many jobs, the market clearing wage rate is already appropriate, and unions would add little.  Those employment markets, already competing for scarce workers, would not suffer (except perhaps relatively, but they generally pay fairly well already).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Unions aren&#8217;t the answer, for the simple reason that unions are not appropriate for every type of worker. And if you only have unions for some workers, that will obviously lead to inequity.</i></p>

	<p>Not necessarily.  Unionization is most useful when the market clearing wage rate is much lower than the value the employee contributes to the company.  For many jobs, the market clearing wage rate is already appropriate, and unions would add little.  Those employment markets, already competing for scarce workers, would not suffer (except perhaps relatively, but they generally pay fairly well already).</p>
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		<title>By: Tom West</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272413</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272413</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I wonder if the issue is that most US unions are currently structured in a way that still fits with the “one employer most of your life” concept which is out of touch with reality.&lt;/i&gt;

Isn&#039;t that one of the advantages?  If employers can&#039;t get rid of unionized workers very easily, workers are more likely to be able to hold the same job for life, with the consequent advantages for their financial security and overall happiness (and of course overall cost of decreased efficiency and overall societal wealth, but nothing comes for free...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I wonder if the issue is that most US unions are currently structured in a way that still fits with the &#8220;one employer most of your life&#8221; concept which is out of touch with reality.</i></p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t that one of the advantages?  If employers can&#8217;t get rid of unionized workers very easily, workers are more likely to be able to hold the same job for life, with the consequent advantages for their financial security and overall happiness (and of course overall cost of decreased efficiency and overall societal wealth, but nothing comes for free&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: David Wright</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/14/reducing-inequality-are-unions-the-answer/comment-page-1/#comment-272408</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10536#comment-272408</guid>
		<description>The use of collective bargining coverage instead of union membership is an interesting innovation. You assert that this is well anti-correlated with Gini coefficient, but you don&#039;t make the case for that assertion in your post. The OECD data on Gini coefficients are available &lt;a href=&quot;http://ocde.p4.siteinternet.com/publications/doifiles/812008051P1G001.xls&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Casual perusal indicates there will be good anti-correlation, but I haven&#039;t computed it or generated a scattergram. Doing so would help your case. (It would also be good to do an analysis segregated by population, since it is often argued that smaller countries have less inequality for sociocultural rather than policy reasons.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The use of collective bargining coverage instead of union membership is an interesting innovation. You assert that this is well anti-correlated with Gini coefficient, but you don&#8217;t make the case for that assertion in your post. The <span class="caps">OECD</span> data on Gini coefficients are available <a href="http://ocde.p4.siteinternet.com/publications/doifiles/812008051P1G001.xls" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Casual perusal indicates there will be good anti-correlation, but I haven&#8217;t computed it or generated a scattergram. Doing so would help your case. (It would also be good to do an analysis segregated by population, since it is often argued that smaller countries have less inequality for sociocultural rather than policy reasons.)</p>
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