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	<title>Comments on: Reducing inequality: expand and improve public services</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-273008</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-273008</guid>
		<description>National defense is a public good. Suppose to satisfy the purpose it would be enough to spend $10 bil on national defense; instead you spend $1 tril (100 times more). My intuition is that there&#039;s probably no redistributive factor whatsoever in availability of this public good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>National defense is a public good. Suppose to satisfy the purpose it would be enough to spend $10 bil on national defense; instead you spend $1 tril (100 times more). My intuition is that there&#8217;s probably no redistributive factor whatsoever in availability of this public good.</p>
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		<title>By: Miracle Max</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-273005</link>
		<dc:creator>Miracle Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-273005</guid>
		<description>gordon -- LeGrand&#039;s book is about services, as the title indicates.  Combining them with other good stuff doesn&#039;t make services any better, in and of themselves.  He describes how the benefits of service provision in the U.K. incline toward those with higher incomes.  The book is old, so the situation may be different now.

My intuition is that the sheer availability of public goods, relative to their absence, is the prime redistributive factor, not in any quantitative gradient that favors poorer over richer.  I&#039;d say that&#039;s the main reason to be left-of-center, as far as economics is concerned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>gordon&#8212;LeGrand&#8217;s book is about services, as the title indicates.  Combining them with other good stuff doesn&#8217;t make services any better, in and of themselves.  He describes how the benefits of service provision in the U.K. incline toward those with higher incomes.  The book is old, so the situation may be different now.</p>

	<p>My intuition is that the sheer availability of public goods, relative to their absence, is the prime redistributive factor, not in any quantitative gradient that favors poorer over richer.  I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s the main reason to be left-of-center, as far as economics is concerned.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272997</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272997</guid>
		<description>Mikhail,
Building large cities, as in China, India, the Middle East, and North Africa strikes me as counting. As do the multiple cathedrals, other medieval churches, and castles across Europe, and equivalents in South-East Asia, there were far more than could be accounted for by one-off projects by the local king.  And even the local king&#039;s demands were not merely one-off, consider for example &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.castlewales.com/edwrdcas.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the scale of castle-building&lt;/a&gt; embarked on by Edward I in Wales to control that country.  That required a lot of builders and people to supply the raw materials and they would all have had to been fed. 
As for not being a country-wide economy in Ancient China or India there was more than a country-wide economy, the Ancient Chinese and Indians were even trading with the Romans.  So not only was there a country-wide economy, there was an intra-Empire economy. Look up the Silk Route sometime.
Whatever the reasons behind the success of European colonisation, it wasn&#039;t the start of people being employed for reasons that go beyond feeding themselves and their immediate families, which was your orginal argument. (I think Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond the best explanation I have read of why countries in Eurasia could colonise the rest of the world, taking into account that we only have one datapoint, but I haven&#039;t read a very convincing explanation of why European countries like Britain and France did so and not somewhere in Asia, perhaps chance played a strong role).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mikhail,<br />
Building large cities, as in China, India, the Middle East, and North Africa strikes me as counting. As do the multiple cathedrals, other medieval churches, and castles across Europe, and equivalents in South-East Asia, there were far more than could be accounted for by one-off projects by the local king.  And even the local king&#8217;s demands were not merely one-off, consider for example <a href="http://www.castlewales.com/edwrdcas.html" rel="nofollow">the scale of castle-building</a> embarked on by Edward I in Wales to control that country.  That required a lot of builders and people to supply the raw materials and they would all have had to been fed.<br />
As for not being a country-wide economy in Ancient China or India there was more than a country-wide economy, the Ancient Chinese and Indians were even trading with the Romans.  So not only was there a country-wide economy, there was an intra-Empire economy. Look up the Silk Route sometime.<br />
Whatever the reasons behind the success of European colonisation, it wasn&#8217;t the start of people being employed for reasons that go beyond feeding themselves and their immediate families, which was your orginal argument. (I think Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond the best explanation I have read of why countries in Eurasia could colonise the rest of the world, taking into account that we only have one datapoint, but I haven&#8217;t read a very convincing explanation of why European countries like Britain and France did so and not somewhere in Asia, perhaps chance played a strong role).</p>
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		<title>By: virgil xenophon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272861</link>
		<dc:creator>virgil xenophon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272861</guid>
		<description>Mr. Art:

People do not drive on roads for free. A large part of gas taxes pay into a transportation fund for const. and maint. Without treadjacking by diversion, might I suggest an excellent site: &quot;The Anti-Planner: @http://ti.org/antiplanner where many academics and professionals specializing in this area debate things such as mass transit, housing, etc.                                                                                                         

America&#039;s love affair with the car is as much about convenience, Democracy and freedom to go and come anywhere at all at any time without a rigid schedule and limited , fixed destinations set by some govt. bureaucrat as much as anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mr. Art:</p>

	<p>People do not drive on roads for free. A large part of gas taxes pay into a transportation fund for const. and maint. Without treadjacking by diversion, might I suggest an excellent site: &#8220;The Anti-Planner: @http://ti.org/antiplanner where many academics and professionals specializing in this area debate things such as mass transit, housing, etc.</p>

	<p>America&#8217;s love affair with the car is as much about convenience, Democracy and freedom to go and come anywhere at all at any time without a rigid schedule and limited , fixed destinations set by some govt. bureaucrat as much as anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Art</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272840</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272840</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But markets haven’t, and likely won’t, bring us affordability coupled with high quality in [...] mass ground transportation.&lt;/i&gt;

I would dispute that. Trams, for example, used to be affordable as well as profitable. It was only when driving cars became very cheap that all the privately-run mass transit had to be subsidised. One of the reasons for that is that the government in general owns the roads and lets you drive on (most of) them for free, instead of charging a market rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But markets haven&#8217;t, and likely won&#8217;t, bring us affordability coupled with high quality in [...] mass ground transportation.</i></p>

	<p>I would dispute that. Trams, for example, used to be affordable as well as profitable. It was only when driving cars became very cheap that all the privately-run mass transit had to be subsidised. One of the reasons for that is that the government in general owns the roads and lets you drive on (most of) them for free, instead of charging a market rate.</p>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272817</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272817</guid>
		<description>Miracle Max: &quot;Bottom line: there is less to the strategy than we would hope for&quot;.

If the strategy includes support for low-end wages and unions as well as increased provision of public services, it isn&#039;t so bad. Was LeGrand&#039;s criticism of public services as a remedy for inequality based on consideration of public services alone, or as part of a package?

My problem with all this is that we in Australia have been here before, and quite recently, too.   But even if Prof. Kenworthy is rediscovering the wheel I have to admit that the wheel is still a good invention. Our problem in Australia is why we threw ours away and went back to packhorses and wooden rollers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Miracle Max: &#8220;Bottom line: there is less to the strategy than we would hope for&#8221;.</p>

	<p>If the strategy includes support for low-end wages and unions as well as increased provision of public services, it isn&#8217;t so bad. Was LeGrand&#8217;s criticism of public services as a remedy for inequality based on consideration of public services alone, or as part of a package?</p>

	<p>My problem with all this is that we in Australia have been here before, and quite recently, too.   But even if Prof. Kenworthy is rediscovering the wheel I have to admit that the wheel is still a good invention. Our problem in Australia is why we threw ours away and went back to packhorses and wooden rollers.</p>
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		<title>By: Britta</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272785</link>
		<dc:creator>Britta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272785</guid>
		<description>Great idea. I grew up in a quasi-socialist American city as the child of government bureaucrats. Even though my parents&#039; salary was middling by any standards, the wide array of free to cheap public services (top-notch public schools, transportation, subsidized music lessons, sports, and other enrichment activities through the City Parks Dept, $5 symphony tickets for students, etc) plus great health care coverage and a bit of frugality in certain areas meant we could live an upper middle-class lifestyle on a middle/lower-middle class salary. People assumed my family earned far more than they did because of things like trips to Europe, a beach house, debt free higher ed at top tier private universities (nearly free, because of need-based scholarships) etc., but really it was because we managed to live a lifestyle as close as possible to that of citizens in a European social. Makes you realize you really don&#039;t need that much money if all your basics are covered by the government, the rest is just to save for a rainy day/go out and play with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Great idea. I grew up in a quasi-socialist American city as the child of government bureaucrats. Even though my parents&#8217; salary was middling by any standards, the wide array of free to cheap public services (top-notch public schools, transportation, subsidized music lessons, sports, and other enrichment activities through the City Parks Dept, $5 symphony tickets for students, etc) plus great health care coverage and a bit of frugality in certain areas meant we could live an upper middle-class lifestyle on a middle/lower-middle class salary. People assumed my family earned far more than they did because of things like trips to Europe, a beach house, debt free higher ed at top tier private universities (nearly free, because of need-based scholarships) etc., but really it was because we managed to live a lifestyle as close as possible to that of citizens in a European social. Makes you realize you really don&#8217;t need that much money if all your basics are covered by the government, the rest is just to save for a rainy day/go out and play with.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkUp</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272775</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkUp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272775</guid>
		<description>I suppose then the definition of  &quot;well&quot; becomes critical ant that you&#039;ve posted a letter to Greenberg and Liddy asking for refunds?  No, wait, based on their comp plans they performed &quot;well.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suppose then the definition of  &#8220;well&#8221; becomes critical ant that you&#8217;ve posted a letter to Greenberg and Liddy asking for refunds?  No, wait, based on their comp plans they performed &#8220;well.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272767</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272767</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I am trying to wrap my mind around the phrase high quality public services. It isn’t working. If you could ever pull that off it would be quite the trick.&lt;/blockquote&gt;My father told me about getting his first pair of glasses in high school.  The provider was something of a dramatist, gave dad the glasses, flung open the door and said &quot;I give you the world!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>I am trying to wrap my mind around the phrase high quality public services. It isn&#8217;t working. If you could ever pull that off it would be quite the trick.</blockquote>My father told me about getting his first pair of glasses in high school.  The provider was something of a dramatist, gave dad the glasses, flung open the door and said &#8220;I give you the world!&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Mikhail</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272761</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikhail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272761</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;are you saying if I work hard and put in 80 hrs/wk folding paper in to cute geometric animals I deserve 80K, just because?&lt;/i&gt;

To play the devil&#039;s advosate to make a point - yes.
Provided (!) that you were hired to do that and you are doing it well.
The point here being that you don&#039;t choose what to do - the job description does that. Therefore if you do your job well, you should be paid well. It&#039;s easy to say that because you do cr*p, you shouldn&#039;t be earning much, but in reality I do believe that pay should correspond to how well you do what you are hired to do!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>are you saying if I work hard and put in 80 hrs/wk folding paper in to cute geometric animals I deserve 80K, just because?</i></p>

	<p>To play the devil&#8217;s advosate to make a point &#8211; yes.<br />
Provided (!) that you were hired to do that and you are doing it well.<br />
The point here being that you don&#8217;t choose what to do &#8211; the job description does that. Therefore if you do your job well, you should be paid well. It&#8217;s easy to say that because you do cr*p, you shouldn&#8217;t be earning much, but in reality I do believe that pay should correspond to how well you do what you are hired to do!</p>
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		<title>By: someguy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272759</link>
		<dc:creator>someguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272759</guid>
		<description>I am trying to wrap my mind around the phrase high quality public services.  It isn&#039;t working.   If you could ever pull that off it would be quite the trick.

The US is already 3 in the world in k-12 per student spending after adjusting for PPP. 

We already spend significant amounts of money provisioning most of the public goods and services you mention for the lower decile.  Medicaid - Head Start.  In general we already spend non trivial amounts of money provisioning the goods and services you mention.

Rasing the minimum wage and expanding the EITC sounds like a pretty good idea.

Requiring those in the bottom decile who for the most part are already working well less than 40 hours a week to trade income for even more time off isn&#039;t a good idea.

Throwing even more money into the money pit called public education isn&#039;t a good idea.

A tax cut is good way to boost the income of those in the lower half of the distribution.  Another library isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I am trying to wrap my mind around the phrase high quality public services.  It isn&#8217;t working.   If you could ever pull that off it would be quite the trick.</p>

	<p>The US is already 3 in the world in k-12 per student spending after adjusting for <span class="caps">PPP</span>.</p>

	<p>We already spend significant amounts of money provisioning most of the public goods and services you mention for the lower decile.  Medicaid &#8211; Head Start.  In general we already spend non trivial amounts of money provisioning the goods and services you mention.</p>

	<p>Rasing the minimum wage and expanding the <span class="caps">EITC</span> sounds like a pretty good idea.</p>

	<p>Requiring those in the bottom decile who for the most part are already working well less than 40 hours a week to trade income for even more time off isn&#8217;t a good idea.</p>

	<p>Throwing even more money into the money pit called public education isn&#8217;t a good idea.</p>

	<p>A tax cut is good way to boost the income of those in the lower half of the distribution.  Another library isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272757</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272757</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The point I was trying to make is about whether or not people who actually work for their money deserve the high pay.&lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps a more productive response is to ask what you mean by &quot;actually work&quot; -- are you suggesting that, in an ideal system, a person&#039;s pay ought to correspond directly to how hard they work? As measured by number of hours worked? Or, do you view this ideal as limited to those who attain a professional degree?

In other words, what&#039;s the philosophy that&#039;s underlying your statements about what&#039;s fair or unfair? The idea that people &lt;i&gt;deserve&lt;/i&gt; what they earn just because they happen to be earning it isn&#039;t very coherent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The point I was trying to make is about whether or not people who actually work for their money deserve the high pay.</i></p>

	<p>Perhaps a more productive response is to ask what you mean by &#8220;actually work&#8221;&#8212;are you suggesting that, in an ideal system, a person&#8217;s pay ought to correspond directly to how hard they work? As measured by number of hours worked? Or, do you view this ideal as limited to those who attain a professional degree?</p>

	<p>In other words, what&#8217;s the philosophy that&#8217;s underlying your statements about what&#8217;s fair or unfair? The idea that people <i>deserve</i> what they earn just because they happen to be earning it isn&#8217;t very coherent.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272755</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272755</guid>
		<description>My name links to a post in which I demonstrate the greater the percentage of GDP spent by the government, the less extreme is income distribution. I wouldn&#039;t mind if Lane were to replicate my results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My name links to a post in which I demonstrate the greater the percentage of <span class="caps">GDP</span> spent by the government, the less extreme is income distribution. I wouldn&#8217;t mind if Lane were to replicate my results.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikhail</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272754</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikhail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272754</guid>
		<description>Tracy W:

I was talking about the beginning of colonisation period. 
Prior to that and in many places nowadays the economy is disjointed - even in ancient China or India you would be hard pressed to make an argument that there was a country-wide economy. Locally - yes, but that means it was based on local resources and needs which are never large to &quot;employ&quot; a lot of people. One off major construction projects by the local king do not count. As for major ancient civilizations, sure, but they are not here anymore. One of the reasons why Europe colonized half the known world is because there were no major powers to oppose it.  Only major power can consolidate a country or a people to the extent that a unified economy will develop. Even today, in China, most of it is rural and only supports itself by sending people to work &quot;in the city&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tracy W:</p>

	<p>I was talking about the beginning of colonisation period.<br />
Prior to that and in many places nowadays the economy is disjointed &#8211; even in ancient China or India you would be hard pressed to make an argument that there was a country-wide economy. Locally &#8211; yes, but that means it was based on local resources and needs which are never large to &#8220;employ&#8221; a lot of people. One off major construction projects by the local king do not count. As for major ancient civilizations, sure, but they are not here anymore. One of the reasons why Europe colonized half the known world is because there were no major powers to oppose it.  Only major power can consolidate a country or a people to the extent that a unified economy will develop. Even today, in China, most of it is rural and only supports itself by sending people to work &#8220;in the city&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkUp</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/17/reducing-inequality-expand-and-improve-public-services/comment-page-1/#comment-272753</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkUp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10629#comment-272753</guid>
		<description>&quot;The point I was trying to make is about whether or not people who actually work for their money deserve the high pay.&quot;

Given the current state of affairs those 100 hr/wk folks were overpaid based on the value of the goods produced; or are you saying if I work hard and put in 80 hrs/wk folding paper in to cute geometric animals I deserve 80K,  just because?

I would like to see Lane&#039;s chart above also include ownership/wealth values that income doesn&#039;t adequately reflect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The point I was trying to make is about whether or not people who actually work for their money deserve the high pay.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Given the current state of affairs those 100 hr/wk folks were overpaid based on the value of the goods produced; or are you saying if I work hard and put in 80 hrs/wk folding paper in to cute geometric animals I deserve 80K,  just because?</p>

	<p>I would like to see Lane&#8217;s chart above also include ownership/wealth values that income doesn&#8217;t adequately reflect.</p>
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