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	<title>Comments on: The ideology that dare not speak its name</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273624</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273624</guid>
		<description>Oops, my mistake, I forgot about the asset sales under the National-NZ First coalition. Okay, we can count that government as neoliberal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, my mistake, I forgot about the asset sales under the National-NZ First coalition. Okay, we can count that government as neoliberal.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273623</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273623</guid>
		<description>John Quiggin, in the 1996 election Labour, National and ACT totalled 68% of the vote. 
I rather missed the further round of neoliberal reform after 1996 in NZ, which surprises me as I was living in the country at the time. There were tax cuts on the middle-income brackets, is that what you are referring to? I thought they were intended for no more ideological reasons than keeping National in power - a neoliberal agenda would rather have cut the top tax rate and company rate in tandem to reduce the possibilities for tax avoidance. 

&lt;i&gt;I didn’t claim that neoliberals have never received a majority of the vote from electors given a reasonable alternative. But your failure to come up with an example suggests that maybe I should have.&lt;/i&gt;

Quite possibly you may have been right to make that claim. What I was objecting to was your statement &quot;It wasn’t until the upheaval of MMP that NZ voters got any kind of choice, and even then, as you say, a limited one.&quot;
NZ voters did have a sharply different choice of economic policy because of The Alliance in 1996. 
I also think it is relevant, in juding the electoral strength of neoliberalism, to mention that while the Labour government of 1987 did not get a majority of votes, it did get 48% of the vote, an increase from when it won power in 1984.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Quiggin, in the 1996 election Labour, National and <span class="caps">ACT</span> totalled 68% of the vote.<br />
I rather missed the further round of neoliberal reform after 1996 in NZ, which surprises me as I was living in the country at the time. There were tax cuts on the middle-income brackets, is that what you are referring to? I thought they were intended for no more ideological reasons than keeping National in power &#8211; a neoliberal agenda would rather have cut the top tax rate and company rate in tandem to reduce the possibilities for tax avoidance.</p>

	<p><i>I didn&#8217;t claim that neoliberals have never received a majority of the vote from electors given a reasonable alternative. But your failure to come up with an example suggests that maybe I should have.</i></p>

	<p>Quite possibly you may have been right to make that claim. What I was objecting to was your statement &#8220;It wasn&#8217;t until the upheaval of <span class="caps">MMP</span> that NZ voters got any kind of choice, and even then, as you say, a limited one.&#8221;<br />
NZ voters did have a sharply different choice of economic policy because of The Alliance in 1996.<br />
I also think it is relevant, in juding the electoral strength of neoliberalism, to mention that while the Labour government of 1987 did not get a majority of votes, it did get 48% of the vote, an increase from when it won power in 1984.</p>
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		<title>By: Lupita</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273606</link>
		<dc:creator>Lupita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 01:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273606</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That is certainly a novel form of the argument from authority&lt;/i&gt;

In linguistics there is no argument from authority, either the word is commonly understood or it is not.  In Latin America, &quot;neoliberalism&quot; is understood as &quot;that which happened to us during the past two decades and has brought so much suffering&quot;.   Not even right-wingers want to be associated with it.

The problem I see with Americans&#039; approach to this new term (for them) is that it is etymological: what does &quot;neo&quot; mean, what does &quot;liberalism&quot; mean to me?  Add the two and supposedly you get what &quot;neoliberalism&quot; actually means.  I does not work that way.

In language, context is everything and the context of &quot;neoliberalism&quot; is Latin American reality and politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That is certainly a novel form of the argument from authority</i></p>

	<p>In linguistics there is no argument from authority, either the word is commonly understood or it is not.  In Latin America, &#8220;neoliberalism&#8221; is understood as &#8220;that which happened to us during the past two decades and has brought so much suffering&#8221;.   Not even right-wingers want to be associated with it.</p>

	<p>The problem I see with Americans&#8217; approach to this new term (for them) is that it is etymological: what does &#8220;neo&#8221; mean, what does &#8220;liberalism&#8221; mean to me?  Add the two and supposedly you get what &#8220;neoliberalism&#8221; actually means.  I does not work that way.</p>

	<p>In language, context is everything and the context of &#8220;neoliberalism&#8221; is Latin American reality and politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273605</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 00:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273605</guid>
		<description>Nice try, Lupita.  That is certainly a novel form of the argument from authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nice try, Lupita.  That is certainly a novel form of the argument from authority.</p>
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		<title>By: Lupita</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273602</link>
		<dc:creator>Lupita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273602</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t know if neoliberal is a good choice for that term&lt;/i&gt;

That is like saying you do not think butterflies should be called butterflies because not all are yellow and they do not flutter around garbage cans.   There is nothing you can do  about it.  People use and understand the term so butterfly it is.

Regarding &quot;neoliberal&quot;, Latin Americans have analyzed what has been happening to us since the Washington Consensus - the document, the IMF justifications, increased inequality, privatizations, raids by hedge funds, financial collapses, diminishing budgets for public education and health, increased poverty - and called it &quot;neoliberalism&quot;.  Granted, we could have called it something else.  However, it is too late to change the term since it has already spread, people all over the world use and understand the term.  So &quot;neoliberalism&quot; it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I don&#8217;t know if neoliberal is a good choice for that term</i></p>

	<p>That is like saying you do not think butterflies should be called butterflies because not all are yellow and they do not flutter around garbage cans.   There is nothing you can do  about it.  People use and understand the term so butterfly it is.</p>

	<p>Regarding &#8220;neoliberal&#8221;, Latin Americans have analyzed what has been happening to us since the Washington Consensus &#8211; the document, the <span class="caps">IMF</span> justifications, increased inequality, privatizations, raids by hedge funds, financial collapses, diminishing budgets for public education and health, increased poverty &#8211; and called it &#8220;neoliberalism&#8221;.  Granted, we could have called it something else.  However, it is too late to change the term since it has already spread, people all over the world use and understand the term.  So &#8220;neoliberalism&#8221; it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273599</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273599</guid>
		<description>Lupita: Other Americans do it out of ignorance, but I&#039;m more motivated by spite.

Henri: True, but I don&#039;t know if neoliberal is a good choice for that term.  In the US political context, Reagan was anti-liberal, and the leader of a movement that turned &quot;liberal&quot; into a dirty word, so in that context, calling him &quot;neoliberal&quot; sounds odd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lupita: Other Americans do it out of ignorance, but I&#8217;m more motivated by spite.</p>

	<p>Henri: True, but I don&#8217;t know if neoliberal is a good choice for that term.  In the US political context, Reagan was anti-liberal, and the leader of a movement that turned &#8220;liberal&#8221; into a dirty word, so in that context, calling him &#8220;neoliberal&#8221; sounds odd.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273596</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273596</guid>
		<description>Right, but I thought the &#039;market structure having a value/ethic in itself&#039; would be a good enough basic concept to sort out all the different manifestations and degrees of this thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Right, but I thought the &#8216;market structure having a value/ethic in itself&#8217; would be a good enough basic concept to sort out all the different manifestations and degrees of this thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Lupita</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273595</link>
		<dc:creator>Lupita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273595</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And yet it’s not the only definition in the air, particularly in the United States.&lt;/i&gt;

The US is notorious for rejecting world-wide usage of political terms much as it rejects the metric system.  Other political terms Americans understand in their unique way are &quot;socialism&quot;, &quot;left&quot;, and &quot;imperialism&quot;.  I wonder why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And yet it&#8217;s not the only definition in the air, particularly in the United States.</i></p>

	<p>The US is notorious for rejecting world-wide usage of political terms much as it rejects the metric system.  Other political terms Americans understand in their unique way are &#8220;socialism&#8221;, &#8220;left&#8221;, and &#8220;imperialism&#8221;.  I wonder why.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273594</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273594</guid>
		<description>And yet it&#039;s not the only definition in the air, particularly in the United States.  I heard the &quot;business-friendly Democrats&quot; definition long before I heard the one described by Fish.  They clearly shade together, but they are not the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And yet it&#8217;s not the only definition in the air, particularly in the United States.  I heard the &#8220;business-friendly Democrats&#8221; definition long before I heard the one described by Fish.  They clearly shade together, but they are not the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273593</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273593</guid>
		<description>Oh, I dunno. I read Stanley Fish&#039;s column in the NYT and he &lt;a href=&quot;http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/neoliberalism-and-higher-education/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote recently&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
...What I’ve learned (and what some readers of this column no doubt already knew) is that neoliberalism is a pejorative way of referring to a set of economic/political policies based on a strong faith in the beneficent effects of free markets. Here is an often cited definition by Paul Treanor: “Neoliberalism is a philosophy in which the existence and operation of a market are valued in themselves, separately from any previous relationship with the production of goods and services . . . and where the operation of a market or market-like structure is seen as an ethic in itself, capable of acting as a guide for all human action, and substituting for all previously existing ethical beliefs.” (“Neoliberalism: Origins, Theory, Definition.”)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Sounds clear and concise enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, I dunno. I read Stanley Fish&#8217;s column in the <span class="caps">NYT</span> and he <a href="http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/neoliberalism-and-higher-education/" rel="nofollow">wrote recently</a>:<br />
<blockquote><br />
&#8230;What I&#8217;ve learned (and what some readers of this column no doubt already knew) is that neoliberalism is a pejorative way of referring to a set of economic/political policies based on a strong faith in the beneficent effects of free markets. Here is an often cited definition by Paul Treanor: &#8220;Neoliberalism is a philosophy in which the existence and operation of a market are valued in themselves, separately from any previous relationship with the production of goods and services . . . and where the operation of a market or market-like structure is seen as an ethic in itself, capable of acting as a guide for all human action, and substituting for all previously existing ethical beliefs.&#8221; (&#8220;Neoliberalism: Origins, Theory, Definition.&#8221;)<br />
</blockquote><br />
Sounds clear and concise enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273592</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273592</guid>
		<description>Uh, Lupita, the whole point is that the term is used in multiple senses.  Some people use it in the way you do, and some people use it in a narrower sense.  Some people use it as a laundry list of their every objection, some people use it to mean economic imperialism, some people use it to mean Reagan/Thatcher-type politics, and some people use it to mean Clinton-type Third Way politics.  It&#039;s almost as if naming something neo-something-else is a dumb idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Uh, Lupita, the whole point is that the term is used in multiple senses.  Some people use it in the way you do, and some people use it in a narrower sense.  Some people use it as a laundry list of their every objection, some people use it to mean economic imperialism, some people use it to mean Reagan/Thatcher-type politics, and some people use it to mean Clinton-type Third Way politics.  It&#8217;s almost as if naming something neo-something-else is a dumb idea.</p>
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		<title>By: tofubo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273591</link>
		<dc:creator>tofubo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273591</guid>
		<description>(gratuitous, self-referential post)

neo-conservative is more accurately neo-liberal,,so classical-liberal is more accurately blatantly-conservative ??

the above is the answer, link below is the question

http://tofubo.blogspot.com/2009/04/riddle-me-this-how-can-you-reconcile.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(gratuitous, self-referential post)</p>

	<p>neo-conservative is more accurately neo-liberal,,so classical-liberal is more accurately blatantly-conservative ??</p>

	<p>the above is the answer, link below is the question</p>

	<p><a href="http://tofubo.blogspot.com/2009/04/riddle-me-this-how-can-you-reconcile.html" rel="nofollow">http://tofubo.blogspot.com/2009/04/riddle-me-this-how-can-you-reconcile.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lupita</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273555</link>
		<dc:creator>Lupita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 18:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273555</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Maybe I really am missing something here, but I can’t help but think that the term is rejected for precisely this reason. &lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps you are missing the where, where is the term &quot;neoliberalism&quot; rejected?  The only people I know who claim they simply cannot grasp its meaning, reside in rich countries, most particularly English-speaking countries, which are precisely the countries that benefited from the exploding pension funds,  asset prices, wasteful consumption, and wars of choice granted to them by being on the right side of an unjust global system.

Neoliberalism is the system that enabled Bechtel to charge poor Bolivians for rainwater, US agribusiness to profit on the backs of a compliant, semi-literate, non-unionized, illegal workforce,  and for capital to flow from poor countries to rich.

Rejecting the term the victims of this system give to it is to reject our voice and to reject injustice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Maybe I really am missing something here, but I can&#8217;t help but think that the term is rejected for precisely this reason. </i></p>

	<p>Perhaps you are missing the where, where is the term &#8220;neoliberalism&#8221; rejected?  The only people I know who claim they simply cannot grasp its meaning, reside in rich countries, most particularly English-speaking countries, which are precisely the countries that benefited from the exploding pension funds,  asset prices, wasteful consumption, and wars of choice granted to them by being on the right side of an unjust global system.</p>

	<p>Neoliberalism is the system that enabled Bechtel to charge poor Bolivians for rainwater, US agribusiness to profit on the backs of a compliant, semi-literate, non-unionized, illegal workforce,  and for capital to flow from poor countries to rich.</p>

	<p>Rejecting the term the victims of this system give to it is to reject our voice and to reject injustice.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273550</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273550</guid>
		<description>Dan, many Greens might express the same opinion.   That could be because when one is in an extreme corner of the political arena, differences in the rest of the arena look smaller, or simply poor judgement.  We&#039;re at the end of a thirty-year to forty-year conservative political surge in the USA, and a thirty-year surge in the UK.  There were a lot of people happy to participate in that surge, to whatever extent they could, who now disavow membership, which is to be expected.  For example, how many right-wingers now disclaim Bush as a conservative, even while supporting him and claiming themselves as conservatives?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan, many Greens might express the same opinion.   That could be because when one is in an extreme corner of the political arena, differences in the rest of the arena look smaller, or simply poor judgement.  We&#8217;re at the end of a thirty-year to forty-year conservative political surge in the <span class="caps">USA</span>, and a thirty-year surge in the UK.  There were a lot of people happy to participate in that surge, to whatever extent they could, who now disavow membership, which is to be expected.  For example, how many right-wingers now disclaim Bush as a conservative, even while supporting him and claiming themselves as conservatives?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/22/the-ideology-that-dare-not-speak-its-name/comment-page-1/#comment-273546</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10764#comment-273546</guid>
		<description>From my (avowedly libertarian) point of view, I can&#039;t seem make any sense of the notion of neoliberalism except as a kind of all-encompassing term used to describe anyone who believes in free markets who the left doesn&#039;t like. I honestly don&#039;t see what else lies in common between, say, the Mises Institute (who you pick out by name) - a bunch of paleo-libertarian, gold-bug borderline (if not outright) anarchists - and Reagan or Thatcher. Maybe I really am missing something here, but I can&#039;t help but think that the term is rejected for precisely this reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From my (avowedly libertarian) point of view, I can&#8217;t seem make any sense of the notion of neoliberalism except as a kind of all-encompassing term used to describe anyone who believes in free markets who the left doesn&#8217;t like. I honestly don&#8217;t see what else lies in common between, say, the Mises Institute (who you pick out by name) &#8211; a bunch of paleo-libertarian, gold-bug borderline (if not outright) anarchists &#8211; and Reagan or Thatcher. Maybe I really am missing something here, but I can&#8217;t help but think that the term is rejected for precisely this reason.</p>
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