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	<title>Comments on: What Teles Can Tell Us About Constitutional Change</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273690</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273690</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://lawmin.nic.in/coi/coiason29july08.pdf&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;From the 471 page PDF of the Indian constitution:&lt;/a&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;Constitution is a living document, an instrument which makes the government system work. Its flexibility lies in its amendments. In this edition, the text of the Constitution of India has been brought up-to-date by incorporating therein all amendments made by Parliament up to and including the Constitution (Ninety-fourth Amendment) Act, 2006. The footnotes below the text indicate the Constitution Amendment Acts by which such amendments have been made.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://lawmin.nic.in/coi/coiason29july08.pdf" title="" rel="nofollow">From the 471 page <span class="caps">PDF</span> of the Indian constitution:</a> <blockquote>Constitution is a living document, an instrument which makes the government system work. Its flexibility lies in its amendments. In this edition, the text of the Constitution of India has been brought up-to-date by incorporating therein all amendments made by Parliament up to and including the Constitution (Ninety-fourth Amendment) Act, 2006. The footnotes below the text indicate the Constitution Amendment Acts by which such amendments have been made.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273686</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273686</guid>
		<description>I think a big problem about theories of Constitutional change is that we can&#039;t even really agree on what we Constitutions for.  For example, are they about demostrably vindicating any possible right that you like (because almost none of the evolving constitutional theories seem to accept the possiblity of emerging rights that you don&#039;t like), or are they about creating a structured framework for the introduction of and acceptance of rights?  

Is the Constitution (apart from the amendment process) supposed to have judges driving change, or is it supposed to let legislatures drive change with the Constitution serving to check them in certain directions?  

If the Constitution is supposed to have judges driving change, is there really a purpose for an amendment process at this point?  Can&#039;t pretty much any possible right be framed under expansive enough readings of the 14th amendment as to require no further amendment?  Is that a good thing?

&quot;Ackerman’s model is interested in big changes at the level of new regimes; Levinson’s and my model, by contrast, is interested in changes great and small. For Ackerman, We the People must self-consciously understand that the Constitution is being amended outside Article V and give their consent through a series of key elections. In Levinson’s and my model the people don’t have to have this self-conscious understanding. Elections matter, but primarily because they decide who becomes President and who holds the balance of power in the Senate, thus affecting who gets appointed to the courts. Social mobilizations matter a great deal too, but they matter especially because they change public opinion, social mores and constitutional common sense. This affects the assumptions of judges on the bench, as well as what kinds of people will get appointed to the bench later on.&quot;

Unless I&#039;m deeply misinterpreting, you seem to think that this is both descriptive and good.  It may be descriptive, but I can&#039;t believe that it is good.  How did we get to the point where the most important thing to think about in a President is who he will appoint to the courts?  Why is it a good thing that most important thing about the Senate is how they will constrict that power?  From an originalist point of view, it is pretty obvious that judges weren&#039;t thought to hold THAT much power.  From a progressive point of view, it doesn&#039;t seem clear that such an arrangement is particularly good or well formed.   Why is it good to have a political landscape where you can say:  &quot;Elections matter, but primarily because they decide who becomes President and who holds the balance of power in the Senate, thus affecting who gets appointed to the courts.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think a big problem about theories of Constitutional change is that we can&#8217;t even really agree on what we Constitutions for.  For example, are they about demostrably vindicating any possible right that you like (because almost none of the evolving constitutional theories seem to accept the possiblity of emerging rights that you don&#8217;t like), or are they about creating a structured framework for the introduction of and acceptance of rights?</p>

	<p>Is the Constitution (apart from the amendment process) supposed to have judges driving change, or is it supposed to let legislatures drive change with the Constitution serving to check them in certain directions?</p>

	<p>If the Constitution is supposed to have judges driving change, is there really a purpose for an amendment process at this point?  Can&#8217;t pretty much any possible right be framed under expansive enough readings of the 14th amendment as to require no further amendment?  Is that a good thing?</p>

	<p>&#8220;Ackerman&#8217;s model is interested in big changes at the level of new regimes; Levinson&#8217;s and my model, by contrast, is interested in changes great and small. For Ackerman, We the People must self-consciously understand that the Constitution is being amended outside Article V and give their consent through a series of key elections. In Levinson&#8217;s and my model the people don&#8217;t have to have this self-conscious understanding. Elections matter, but primarily because they decide who becomes President and who holds the balance of power in the Senate, thus affecting who gets appointed to the courts. Social mobilizations matter a great deal too, but they matter especially because they change public opinion, social mores and constitutional common sense. This affects the assumptions of judges on the bench, as well as what kinds of people will get appointed to the bench later on.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Unless I&#8217;m deeply misinterpreting, you seem to think that this is both descriptive and good.  It may be descriptive, but I can&#8217;t believe that it is good.  How did we get to the point where the most important thing to think about in a President is who he will appoint to the courts?  Why is it a good thing that most important thing about the Senate is how they will constrict that power?  From an originalist point of view, it is pretty obvious that judges weren&#8217;t thought to hold <span class="caps">THAT</span> much power.  From a progressive point of view, it doesn&#8217;t seem clear that such an arrangement is particularly good or well formed.   Why is it good to have a political landscape where you can say:  &#8220;Elections matter, but primarily because they decide who becomes President and who holds the balance of power in the Senate, thus affecting who gets appointed to the courts.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: dmv</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273682</link>
		<dc:creator>dmv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273682</guid>
		<description>Quick point about my earlier comment. I said:

&quot;(1) Balkin &amp; Levinson’s theory very much reminded me of Lenin’s vanguard of the proletariat.&quot;

I did not mean that as a potshot or a snarky, &quot;Ha, ha, you commies,&quot; response. I meant, it actually reminded me of Lenin&#039;s theory, and I wanted to point out that what they&#039;re arguing has been argued before (albeit in a different context, and Lenin was arguing that the Bolsheviks should be the vanguard, not that they descriptively were).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Quick point about my earlier comment. I said:</p>

	<p>&#8220;(1) Balkin &#038; Levinson&#8217;s theory very much reminded me of Lenin&#8217;s vanguard of the proletariat.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I did not mean that as a potshot or a snarky, &#8220;Ha, ha, you commies,&#8221; response. I meant, it actually reminded me of Lenin&#8217;s theory, and I wanted to point out that what they&#8217;re arguing has been argued before (albeit in a different context, and Lenin was arguing that the Bolsheviks should be the vanguard, not that they descriptively were).</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273681</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273681</guid>
		<description>I will be maintaining a particularly vigorous moderation policy on this seminar. I have no idea whether William Berry&#039;s comment was the product of an inability to read obvious irony, or was instead common or garden trolling. Nor do I care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I will be maintaining a particularly vigorous moderation policy on this seminar. I have no idea whether William Berry&#8217;s comment was the product of an inability to read obvious irony, or was instead common or garden trolling. Nor do I care.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273678</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273678</guid>
		<description>First post, and it&#039;s a frickin&#039; troll.

Henry, I strongly suggest laying a heavy banning hand on this seminar, if you&#039;d like it to remain one.  It&#039;s a pain and a burden, but it&#039;s going to be necessary.  This seminar will probably host some heated discussion and debates, even without trolls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>First post, and it&#8217;s a frickin&#8217; troll.</p>

	<p>Henry, I strongly suggest laying a heavy banning hand on this seminar, if you&#8217;d like it to remain one.  It&#8217;s a pain and a burden, but it&#8217;s going to be necessary.  This seminar will probably host some heated discussion and debates, even without trolls.</p>
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		<title>By: dmv</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273677</link>
		<dc:creator>dmv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273677</guid>
		<description>Several things came to my mind after reading this:

(1) Balkin &amp; Levinson&#039;s theory very much reminded me of Lenin&#039;s vanguard of the proletariat.

(2) I don&#039;t think we need the amount of writing produced by academic lawyers to tell us that the Constitution changes over time because of a complex and diverse set of factors.  Insofar as Balkin &amp; Levinson&#039;s theory of constitutional change amounts to saying, &quot;It&#039;s complicated,&quot; their theory of constitutional change approaches reality. They&#039;re describing, not prescribing. I was reminded of Borges&#039; story about people who set out to make a perfect map of the world. 

(3) I haven&#039;t done research to ground my claim, but I think there&#039;s a better theory for liberals in a theory of popular sovereignty than there is from popular constitutionalism. I have been thinking about this for a bit now, and I think there are plausible links between the conceptualization of popular sovereignty at an individual level, a robust view of human dignity that stabilizes the emphasis on the individual, and rights. I think, if properly constructed, such a theory could provide powerful support for a liberal program. It&#039;s a normative framework, so it doesn&#039;t respond to questions of what the Framers intended or what the Constitution meant in 1790 or 1937. But I think, if more fully elaborated, such a framework would support an expansive conception of the Equal Protection Clause, of the Privileges &amp; Immunities Clauses, as well as the standard Bill of Rights protections. It would provide support for rejecting the death penalty, for accepting abortion (within certain limits--there does come a point where abortion becomes troubling when we&#039;re emphasizing the importance of individuals from a theory of dignity), for progressive tax schemes, and so on. But as I said, I haven&#039;t rigorously worked through the implications of it. Yet. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Several things came to my mind after reading this:</p>

	<p>(1) Balkin &#038; Levinson&#8217;s theory very much reminded me of Lenin&#8217;s vanguard of the proletariat.</p>

	<p>(2) I don&#8217;t think we need the amount of writing produced by academic lawyers to tell us that the Constitution changes over time because of a complex and diverse set of factors.  Insofar as Balkin &#038; Levinson&#8217;s theory of constitutional change amounts to saying, &#8220;It&#8217;s complicated,&#8221; their theory of constitutional change approaches reality. They&#8217;re describing, not prescribing. I was reminded of Borges&#8217; story about people who set out to make a perfect map of the world.</p>

	<p>(3) I haven&#8217;t done research to ground my claim, but I think there&#8217;s a better theory for liberals in a theory of popular sovereignty than there is from popular constitutionalism. I have been thinking about this for a bit now, and I think there are plausible links between the conceptualization of popular sovereignty at an individual level, a robust view of human dignity that stabilizes the emphasis on the individual, and rights. I think, if properly constructed, such a theory could provide powerful support for a liberal program. It&#8217;s a normative framework, so it doesn&#8217;t respond to questions of what the Framers intended or what the Constitution meant in 1790 or 1937. But I think, if more fully elaborated, such a framework would support an expansive conception of the Equal Protection Clause, of the Privileges &#038; Immunities Clauses, as well as the standard Bill of Rights protections. It would provide support for rejecting the death penalty, for accepting abortion (within certain limits&#8212;there does come a point where abortion becomes troubling when we&#8217;re emphasizing the importance of individuals from a theory of dignity), for progressive tax schemes, and so on. But as I said, I haven&#8217;t rigorously worked through the implications of it. Yet. :)</p>
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		<title>By: andthenyoufall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273672</link>
		<dc:creator>andthenyoufall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273672</guid>
		<description>Do &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; speak American English? Because I hear &quot;unwashed masses&quot; all the time, almost always when (as here) the speaker is attributing to someone else the view that there is an important divide between a virtuous elite and an unwashed rabble. Thus, I take it, three possible Others to a unified legal elite are offered: unwashed masses, grass-roots orgs, and &quot;average americans.&quot; Each of those says something different about how the person who would postulate them understands these legal conflicts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do <i>you</i> speak American English? Because I hear &#8220;unwashed masses&#8221; all the time, almost always when (as here) the speaker is attributing to someone else the view that there is an important divide between a virtuous elite and an unwashed rabble. Thus, I take it, three possible Others to a unified legal elite are offered: unwashed masses, grass-roots orgs, and &#8220;average americans.&#8221; Each of those says something different about how the person who would postulate them understands these legal conflicts.</p>
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		<title>By: William Berry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/27/what-teles-can-tell-us-about-constitutional-change/comment-page-1/#comment-273664</link>
		<dc:creator>William Berry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10837#comment-273664</guid>
		<description>[aeiou]&quot;the unwashed masses&quot;?

Mr. Balkin, in this country the great mass of ordinary people (in which mass I include myself) have hygiene as good as yours or that of any other middle-class person. 

Are you European, English perhaps? Because we tend not to use that idiom here.

When it is used, the expression reveals more about the speaker than it reveals about the intended referent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;th nwshd msss&#8221;?</p>

	<p>Mr. Blkn, n ths cntry th grt mss f rdnry ppl (n whch mss  ncld myslf) hv hygn s gd s yrs r tht f ny thr mddl-clss prsn.</p>

	<p>r y rpn, nglsh prhps? Bcs w tnd nt t s tht dm hr.</p>

	<p>Whn t s sd, th xprssn rvls mr bt th spkr thn t rvls bt th ntndd rfrnt.</p>
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