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	<title>Comments on: Personal Networks in History: A Bleg</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:49:45 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274167</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 02:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274167</guid>
		<description>Ahistoricality -- 

I think pretty much everybody takes the story of Bodo with a large grain of salt these days, but Power is still one of the people who began to ask these kinds of questions and set the stage for the kind of stuff I do (mediated by people like Herlihy and Wemple, among many others).  I&#039;d say you&#039;re right in your gut feeling -- although one can find examples of what Power talks about in many documents, her account rests on what&#039;s probably a very general amalgamation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ahistoricality&#8212;<br />
I think pretty much everybody takes the story of Bodo with a large grain of salt these days, but Power is still one of the people who began to ask these kinds of questions and set the stage for the kind of stuff I do (mediated by people like Herlihy and Wemple, among many others).  I&#8217;d say you&#8217;re right in your gut feeling&#8212;although one can find examples of what Power talks about in many documents, her account rests on what&#8217;s probably a very general amalgamation.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274072</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274072</guid>
		<description>banned commenter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>banned commenter</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274070</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274070</guid>
		<description>#33 Yes, Dave, wrong is still wrong. Obviously I&#039;m not a historian and that puts me in a very weak position to evaluate academic historians&#039; dismissal of Robb. I can, however, read, so I am able to compare the content of the book to their reports of it. Take the TNR review by David A. Bell of Johns Hopkins, for example. It contains the following passage:

bq. Hufton&#039;s magnificent study of the eighteenth-century poor contains the sort of stunning original material that begs for a writer of Robb&#039;s talent to convey to a larger public. Her vision of millions of men and women struggling to get by through an &quot;economy of makeshifts,&quot; many of them tramping at their tragically slow pace through the French countryside, often reduced to petty theft or prostitution to survive, is as colorful and as powerful as Robb&#039;s vision of millions of men and women living their entire lives in virtual isolation, rarely encountering strangers or leaving the valleys of their birth. But Hufton&#039;s tale has the advantage of being supported by the evidence.

Someone who hadn&#039;t read Robb&#039;s book and who relied entirely on the review would never suppose that there is an entire chapter of _The Discovery of France_ called &quot;Migrants and Commuters&quot; nor that said chapter references Hufton&#039;s work  several times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#33 Yes, Dave, wrong is still wrong. Obviously I&#8217;m not a historian and that puts me in a very weak position to evaluate academic historians&#8217; dismissal of Robb. I can, however, read, so I am able to compare the content of the book to their reports of it. Take the <span class="caps">TNR</span> review by David A. Bell of Johns Hopkins, for example. It contains the following passage:</p>

	<blockquote>Hufton&#8217;s magnificent study of the eighteenth-century poor contains the sort of stunning original material that begs for a writer of Robb&#8217;s talent to convey to a larger public. Her vision of millions of men and women struggling to get by through an &#8220;economy of makeshifts,&#8221; many of them tramping at their tragically slow pace through the French countryside, often reduced to petty theft or prostitution to survive, is as colorful and as powerful as Robb&#8217;s vision of millions of men and women living their entire lives in virtual isolation, rarely encountering strangers or leaving the valleys of their birth. But Hufton&#8217;s tale has the advantage of being supported by the evidence.</blockquote>

	<p>Someone who hadn&#8217;t read Robb&#8217;s book and who relied entirely on the review would never suppose that there is an entire chapter of <em>The Discovery of France</em> called &#8220;Migrants and Commuters&#8221; nor that said chapter references Hufton&#8217;s work  several times.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274060</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274060</guid>
		<description>banned commenter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>banned commenter</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274054</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274054</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m grateful to anon above for alerting me to the reviews of Robb. When and if I do blog about Robb, I&#039;ll be saying slightly different things as a result (what a pity!). Nevertheless, the reviews by professional historians (I&#039;ve googled some more) are very revealing about them too. The wounded _amour propre_ at a talented writer getting more attention than they do, the sneering at the personal detail that Robb reveals in his book (the cycling) , and the distortion of the book&#039;s contents in significant respects (Kale&#039;s _ad hominem_ overplaying of Robb&#039;s alleged romantic anti-modernism) are all examples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m grateful to anon above for alerting me to the reviews of Robb. When and if I do blog about Robb, I&#8217;ll be saying slightly different things as a result (what a pity!). Nevertheless, the reviews by professional historians (I&#8217;ve googled some more) are very revealing about them too. The wounded <em>amour propre</em> at a talented writer getting more attention than they do, the sneering at the personal detail that Robb reveals in his book (the cycling) , and the distortion of the book&#8217;s contents in significant respects (Kale&#8217;s <em>ad hominem</em> overplaying of Robb&#8217;s alleged romantic anti-modernism) are all examples.</p>
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		<title>By: Ahistoricality</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274051</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahistoricality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 05:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274051</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Another Damned Medievalist 04.29.09 at 10:45 pm

    headdesk

    All that to get to Power!&lt;/i&gt;

I hope ADM will come back and actually respond to Kieran&#039;s query, and explain where Power sits in the historiography at this point. My reading of the chapter left me amused and thoughtful, but also concerned at the level of supposition and approximation necessary to flesh out the sources into a portrait.

My initial reaction -- &quot;more like pseudo-social science&quot; -- was largely triggered by the combination of overgeneralization (&quot;peasants in mediaeval societies&quot;) and oddly specific quantification (&quot;only eighty people or so&quot;) of a complex social phenomenon. These factoids sometimes have very questionable geneaologies, but because they stick in the head and illustrate something we already think to be true (the narrow social world of the peasant as opposed to our rich modern life, etc.), they get cited a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Another Damned Medievalist 04.29.09 at 10:45 pm</i></p>

	<p>headdesk</p>

	<p>All that to get to Power!</p>

	<p>I hope <span class="caps">ADM</span> will come back and actually respond to Kieran&#8217;s query, and explain where Power sits in the historiography at this point. My reading of the chapter left me amused and thoughtful, but also concerned at the level of supposition and approximation necessary to flesh out the sources into a portrait.</p>

	<p>My initial reaction&#8212;&#8220;more like pseudo-social science&#8221;&#8212;was largely triggered by the combination of overgeneralization (&#8220;peasants in mediaeval societies&#8221;) and oddly specific quantification (&#8220;only eighty people or so&#8221;) of a complex social phenomenon. These factoids sometimes have very questionable geneaologies, but because they stick in the head and illustrate something we already think to be true (the narrow social world of the peasant as opposed to our rich modern life, etc.), they get cited a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Cryptic ned</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274050</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 05:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274050</guid>
		<description>Books that aren&#039;t unreadably boring are unreliable and tend to stretch the truth, Kieran.  That&#039;s nothing new.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Books that aren&#8217;t unreadably boring are unreliable and tend to stretch the truth, Kieran.  That&#8217;s nothing new.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274039</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274039</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;sounds more like pseudo-social science than history&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt; Peasants into Frenchmen is quite outdated and Robb’s book is just plain terrible&lt;/i&gt;

What&#039;s the state of the art on this stuff these days, anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>sounds more like pseudo-social science than history</i></p>

	<p><i> Peasants into Frenchmen is quite outdated and Robb&#8217;s book is just plain terrible</i></p>

	<p>What&#8217;s the state of the art on this stuff these days, anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274038</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274038</guid>
		<description>Public Service Announcement

Eugen Weber&#039;s Peasants into Frenchmen is quite outdated and Robb&#039;s book is just plain terrible (and wrong). Nobody should rely on either book for research.  See: 

http://www.powells.com/review/2008_02_07.html

http://www.h-france.net/vol8reviews/vol8no61kale.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Public Service Announcement</p>

	<p>Eugen Weber&#8217;s Peasants into Frenchmen is quite outdated and Robb&#8217;s book is just plain terrible (and wrong). Nobody should rely on either book for research.  See:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.powells.com/review/2008_02_07.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.powells.com/review/2008_02_07.html</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.h-france.net/vol8reviews/vol8no61kale.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.h-france.net/vol8reviews/vol8no61kale.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Janice</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274032</link>
		<dc:creator>Janice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274032</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;History is largely made up of Bodos.&lt;/em&gt;

I love how Power ended that chapter. Thanks for bringing it back to mind!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>History is largely made up of Bodos.</em></p>

	<p>I love how Power ended that chapter. Thanks for bringing it back to mind!</p>
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		<title>By: kid bitzer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274029</link>
		<dc:creator>kid bitzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274029</guid>
		<description>the original datum was that the average peasant would *eat* only eighty or so people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>the original datum was that the average peasant would <strong>eat</strong> only eighty or so people.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Danby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274027</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Danby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274027</guid>
		<description>Google books are teh awesome, and it was nice to come across the Leijonhufvud piece.  

I&#039;m with Barry -- Power certainly supports a limited and stable number of exchange contacts, which is the point Leijonhufvud goes with (though where is 80 from?) but definitely not &quot;would meet only eighty people or so over the course of his/her life&quot; which seems like a weirdly small number.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Google books are teh awesome, and it was nice to come across the Leijonhufvud piece.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m with Barry&#8212;Power certainly supports a limited and stable number of exchange contacts, which is the point Leijonhufvud goes with (though where is 80 from?) but definitely not &#8220;would meet only eighty people or so over the course of his/her life&#8221; which seems like a weirdly small number.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Alpers</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274025</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Alpers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274025</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, there was no UK in the Middle Ages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Incidentally, there was no UK in the Middle Ages.</p>
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		<title>By: Ahistoricality</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274021</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahistoricality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274021</guid>
		<description>Henry, have you read the original source, Eileen Power? It&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=1PLSkeGYldkC&amp;pg=PP4&amp;dq=%22eileen+power%22+1963&amp;client=firefox-a#PPA13,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;available at Google Book&lt;/a&gt; and describes a medieval world vastly different from what your recollection, or your reference, seem to be saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, have you read the original source, Eileen Power? It&#8217;s <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=1PLSkeGYldkC&#038;pg=PP4&#038;dq=%22eileen+power%22+1963&#038;client=firefox-a#PPA13,M1" rel="nofollow">available at Google Book</a> and describes a medieval world vastly different from what your recollection, or your reference, seem to be saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/29/personal-networks-in-history-a-bleg/comment-page-1/#comment-274008</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=10907#comment-274008</guid>
		<description>Ah, but the actual reference says this, or close enough to be useful for my piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah, but the actual reference says this, or close enough to be useful for my piece.</p>
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