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	<title>Comments on: Murdoch wants to charge people to read what the PR industry spews out</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: The Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275179</link>
		<dc:creator>The Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 19:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275179</guid>
		<description>As for Simon, I think we need a better business model for &lt;i&gt;business&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As for Simon, I think we need a better business model for <i>business</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Wisse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275177</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Wisse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 18:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275177</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But Hidari, are we sure there was a golden age?&lt;/i&gt;

There never was. Just look e.g. at A. J Liebling&#039;s report of the American newspaper industry of the late fifties and early sixties, which doesn&#039;t differ all that much from &lt;i&gt;Flat Earth News&lt;/i&gt;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But Hidari, are we sure there was a golden age?</i></p>

	<p>There never was. Just look e.g. at A. J Liebling&#8217;s report of the American newspaper industry of the late fifties and early sixties, which doesn&#8217;t differ all that much from <i>Flat Earth News</i>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: homer bigart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275174</link>
		<dc:creator>homer bigart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 18:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275174</guid>
		<description>Anyone thinks Ryan Tate&#039;s response is actually a credible response to the kind of beat reporting that Simon is describing is a sucker.

Even the Oakland blogger he cited as a viable substitute for professional journalism gave an interview yesterday in which she bemoaned the lack of reporting in Oakland and how bereft the city was of mainstream journalism.

For Tate to list whatever fledgling efforts he can get off the web and claim that they amount to systemic coverage of a regional area is itself a prima facie case of just how empty blog reporting often is.  That so many people buy it without actually investigating how much ground those &quot;citizen journalists&quot; are covering is real
herd-of-sheep tragic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anyone thinks Ryan Tate&#8217;s response is actually a credible response to the kind of beat reporting that Simon is describing is a sucker.</p>

	<p>Even the Oakland blogger he cited as a viable substitute for professional journalism gave an interview yesterday in which she bemoaned the lack of reporting in Oakland and how bereft the city was of mainstream journalism.</p>

	<p>For Tate to list whatever fledgling efforts he can get off the web and claim that they amount to systemic coverage of a regional area is itself a prima facie case of just how empty blog reporting often is.  That so many people buy it without actually investigating how much ground those &#8220;citizen journalists&#8221; are covering is real<br />
herd-of-sheep tragic.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Monck</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275162</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Monck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 15:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275162</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Ryan Tate&lt;/b&gt; actually has a very good answer for &lt;b&gt;Simon&lt;/b&gt;&#039;s points &lt;a href=&quot;http://gawker.com/5243523/david-simon-dead+wrong-dinosaur&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;here&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;With so much quality civic reporting already being done online for little or no pay, it stands to reason we could eventually get quality government reporting entirely from bloggers, both professional and amateur, rather than depending on a federally-coddled cabal of conspiring nonprofit newspapers, as Simon envisions.

And there are reasons to think the quality would actually be better, since so many of the writers are deeply invested residents, rather than the sort of superficially-engaged, careerist professional journalists portrayed so well by Simon in The Wire and all too common in American newsrooms.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>Ryan Tate</b> actually has a very good answer for <b>Simon</b>&#8217;s points <a href="http://gawker.com/5243523/david-simon-dead+wrong-dinosaur" rel="nofollow"><b>here</b></a>:</p>

	<p><blockquote>With so much quality civic reporting already being done online for little or no pay, it stands to reason we could eventually get quality government reporting entirely from bloggers, both professional and amateur, rather than depending on a federally-coddled cabal of conspiring nonprofit newspapers, as Simon envisions.</blockquote></p>

	<p>And there are reasons to think the quality would actually be better, since so many of the writers are deeply invested residents, rather than the sort of superficially-engaged, careerist professional journalists portrayed so well by Simon in The Wire and all too common in American newsrooms.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275123</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 21:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275123</guid>
		<description>David Simon kind of says it all, doesn&#039;t he?

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/7/david_simon_creator_of_acclaimed_hbo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>David Simon kind of says it all, doesn&#8217;t he?</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/7/david_simon_creator_of_acclaimed_hbo" rel="nofollow">http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/7/david_simon_creator_of_acclaimed_hbo</a></p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275103</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 19:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275103</guid>
		<description>So much journalism has been free or ad-sponsored for so long that I don&#039;t think most of the public even knows what for-pay journalism looks like.  I&#039;d be interested to see what kind of correlation there is between the percent of revenue from issue sales and the proportion of original content in news sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So much journalism has been free or ad-sponsored for so long that I don&#8217;t think most of the public even knows what for-pay journalism looks like.  I&#8217;d be interested to see what kind of correlation there is between the percent of revenue from issue sales and the proportion of original content in news sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee A. Arnold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275011</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee A. Arnold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 03:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275011</guid>
		<description>Murdoch seems to be abstracting wrongly from the example of the Wall Street Journal. Take a quick glance at today&#039;s Wall Street Journal front webpage.  Most of its stories, even though not quite the churnalism showing-up in his other endeavors, are yet covered by other outlets, while some of its stories are junk (the front page has now fallen so far as to headline the reliable excretions from the clown pundits of the GOP&#039;s yesteryears.)   People are paying for it now, only because of what it used to be -- and that habit is going to pass. 

A new business model is becoming possible. The platform is the internet itself, which is turning into a single big newspaper. Google is trying to create a ready-made, world-wide advertising department for the thing, using context-sensitive ads.  (They figure they can corner the ad department from &quot;search.&quot;)  The new model is going to be a hot (i.e. popular, important) &quot;aggregator page.&quot; Drudge and Huffington are the merest hints of what is to come.   It won&#039;t be just snapshot stuff.  The momentum will be new people who want to be editors, having good ideas about topics, format and choices, and  running aggregator pages that present new people who want to be writers and videomakers.  In other words, much of the world is going free-lance, and all will share in the AdSense revenue of the aggregator page of the creative editor.   It doesn&#039;t even have to be exclusive -- a good new freelance writer could show up wherever he or she wants to.   There could even be be re-aggregator pages -- see popurls.com for an example of how this could look (I found the Susan Boyle video there when it had less than 400,000 hits.)  The power is going to reside with the creators, and the best stories will find these new avenues.

In the old days the Journal had a dedicated staff in physical proximity to the New York financial center, and so it could break stories and present analysis that couldn&#039;t be found anywhere else.  Its hardcopy subscribers, dependent upon this business news, have been willing to follow it on-line and to pay for it there.  This almost certainly has to change.  The Journal&#039;s editors do not have a commanding view of the way the world works; their detection of the financial crisis was dismal for example; and any capable young person choosing an editorial career would almost certainly want to do things his or her own way instead -- and possibly make lots more money.  Similarly the Journal is not going to pick up the best new reporters because the contracts are restrictive -- they don&#039;t have the freedom to publish books based on research performed on duty, for example.  Meanwhile, something like Wolfram Alpha will obviate most of the numerical analytical functions for which the old readership regarded the Journal so highly.  In short, The Wall Street Journal is likely to become further weakened in intellectual firepower, while being swamped by continuous waves of hotter information.  How much is the old name worth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Murdoch seems to be abstracting wrongly from the example of the Wall Street Journal. Take a quick glance at today&#8217;s Wall Street Journal front webpage.  Most of its stories, even though not quite the churnalism showing-up in his other endeavors, are yet covered by other outlets, while some of its stories are junk (the front page has now fallen so far as to headline the reliable excretions from the clown pundits of the <span class="caps">GOP</span>&#8217;s yesteryears.)   People are paying for it now, only because of what it used to be&#8212;and that habit is going to pass.</p>

	<p>A new business model is becoming possible. The platform is the internet itself, which is turning into a single big newspaper. Google is trying to create a ready-made, world-wide advertising department for the thing, using context-sensitive ads.  (They figure they can corner the ad department from &#8220;search.&#8221;)  The new model is going to be a hot (i.e. popular, important) &#8220;aggregator page.&#8221; Drudge and Huffington are the merest hints of what is to come.   It won&#8217;t be just snapshot stuff.  The momentum will be new people who want to be editors, having good ideas about topics, format and choices, and  running aggregator pages that present new people who want to be writers and videomakers.  In other words, much of the world is going free-lance, and all will share in the AdSense revenue of the aggregator page of the creative editor.   It doesn&#8217;t even have to be exclusive&#8212;a good new freelance writer could show up wherever he or she wants to.   There could even be be re-aggregator pages&#8212;see popurls.com for an example of how this could look (I found the Susan Boyle video there when it had less than 400,000 hits.)  The power is going to reside with the creators, and the best stories will find these new avenues.</p>

	<p>In the old days the Journal had a dedicated staff in physical proximity to the New York financial center, and so it could break stories and present analysis that couldn&#8217;t be found anywhere else.  Its hardcopy subscribers, dependent upon this business news, have been willing to follow it on-line and to pay for it there.  This almost certainly has to change.  The Journal&#8217;s editors do not have a commanding view of the way the world works; their detection of the financial crisis was dismal for example; and any capable young person choosing an editorial career would almost certainly want to do things his or her own way instead&#8212;and possibly make lots more money.  Similarly the Journal is not going to pick up the best new reporters because the contracts are restrictive&#8212;they don&#8217;t have the freedom to publish books based on research performed on duty, for example.  Meanwhile, something like Wolfram Alpha will obviate most of the numerical analytical functions for which the old readership regarded the Journal so highly.  In short, The Wall Street Journal is likely to become further weakened in intellectual firepower, while being swamped by continuous waves of hotter information.  How much is the old name worth?</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275004</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 00:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275004</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;For snapshot stuff, people will use free sites like Huffpost and the BBC&lt;/i&gt;

I wonder what Murdoch would like to happen to the BBC...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>For snapshot stuff, people will use free sites like Huffpost and the <span class="caps">BBC</span></i></p>

	<p>I wonder what Murdoch would like to happen to the <span class="caps">BBC</span>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: self exile</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-275003</link>
		<dc:creator>self exile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 00:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-275003</guid>
		<description>Simple answer to why do people read newspapers - they hate trees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Simple answer to why do people read newspapers &#8211; they hate trees.</p>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-274990</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 19:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-274990</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, Novakent also believes that 

&#039;Goodheart is to be taken with a grain of salt, but is anybody here seriously deying that the LRB is a tad biased when it comes to Israel or that large parts of the population in middle eastern countries are blatantly anti-semitic?&#039;

Which makes me think that his definition of &#039;original reporting and commentary&#039; is different from mine. It also makes me think that when he argues that Randolph is limiting himself to &#039;too few and similar sources&#039; this should be interpreted in a highly specific sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Incidentally, Novakent also believes that</p>

	<p>&#8216;Goodheart is to be taken with a grain of salt, but is anybody here seriously deying that the <span class="caps">LRB</span> is a tad biased when it comes to Israel or that large parts of the population in middle eastern countries are blatantly anti-semitic?&#8217;</p>

	<p>Which makes me think that his definition of &#8216;original reporting and commentary&#8217; is different from mine. It also makes me think that when he argues that Randolph is limiting himself to &#8216;too few and similar sources&#8217; this should be interpreted in a highly specific sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Mutimba Mazwi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-274988</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutimba Mazwi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 18:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-274988</guid>
		<description>It seems the internet has changed how news is perceived: a journalist can now read about India&#039;s GDP in less than a minute by either &#039;Googling&#039; it or using the BBC news Country Profiles link.

If that turns out to be indequate, there are various sources, including the Council on Foreign Relations who feature a lot of &#039;experts&#039; in various fields.

What the masses take in as &#039;news&#039; seems to be what you already know + general knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It seems the internet has changed how news is perceived: a journalist can now read about India&#8217;s <span class="caps">GDP</span> in less than a minute by either &#8216;Googling&#8217; it or using the <span class="caps">BBC</span> news Country Profiles link.</p>

	<p>If that turns out to be indequate, there are various sources, including the Council on Foreign Relations who feature a lot of &#8216;experts&#8217; in various fields.</p>

	<p>What the masses take in as &#8216;news&#8217; seems to be what you already know + general knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-274983</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 18:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-274983</guid>
		<description>Randolph, I have around 50 sites bookmarked for news and politics and they all feature for the most part original reporting and commentary. If they were all repeating each other, I wouldn&#039;t read them. I only have enough time to read a fraction of them on a regular basis. Maybe you are limiting yourself to too few and similar sources?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Randolph, I have around 50 sites bookmarked for news and politics and they all feature for the most part original reporting and commentary. If they were all repeating each other, I wouldn&#8217;t read them. I only have enough time to read a fraction of them on a regular basis. Maybe you are limiting yourself to too few and similar sources?</p>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-274977</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 18:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-274977</guid>
		<description>&#039;newspapers have fewer full-time staffers than they used to&#039;

&#039;People tell me that a few decades ago, newspapers had much smaller staffs&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;newspapers have fewer full-time staffers than they used to&#8217;</p>

	<p>&#8216;People tell me that a few decades ago, newspapers had much smaller staffs&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Monck</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-274976</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Monck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 18:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-274976</guid>
		<description>Do I know any journalists, Hidari? Now there&#039;s a question...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do I know any journalists, Hidari? Now there&#8217;s a question&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Randolph</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/07/murdoch-wants-to-charge-people-to-read-what-the-pr-industry-spews-out/comment-page-1/#comment-274965</link>
		<dc:creator>Randolph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 17:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11043#comment-274965</guid>
		<description>Picking and packing wire-service stories is real work--editing counts, and I know there&#039;s more on the wires than I could possibly every read. So I wouldn&#039;t mind paying  as long as it was a real price--one that didn&#039;t include the cost of no-longer-necessary paper and printing. That would probably be a few pennies a day. And, of course, as long as paid mass advertising wasn&#039;t already funding the news source. The WSJ makes its money from businesses and businesspeople, who purchase it because they need it for their business. People are paying for the valuable information which the WSJ (and the other financial news services) provide. The News Corp papers are consumer products, and are purchased at low prices for a few specific reasons: filling time, providing classifieds and local advertising, and so on.  That&#039;s not as valuable to most people, and the price has to be lower or the product has to be better.

novakant, if you look at these multiple sources, mostly they are repeating each other. (I make an exception for genuinely different sources like the English-language al-Jazeera.) On-the-ground reporting means paying reporters, and there&#039;s been less and less money for that in the past few decades. Hmmm. I wonder if this is related to the attitudes that have brought on the global financial collapse. Less and less effort spent on actual work, more and more on pushing around the money made from actual work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Picking and packing wire-service stories is real work&#8212;editing counts, and I know there&#8217;s more on the wires than I could possibly every read. So I wouldn&#8217;t mind paying  as long as it was a real price&#8212;one that didn&#8217;t include the cost of no-longer-necessary paper and printing. That would probably be a few pennies a day. And, of course, as long as paid mass advertising wasn&#8217;t already funding the news source. The <span class="caps">WSJ</span> makes its money from businesses and businesspeople, who purchase it because they need it for their business. People are paying for the valuable information which the <span class="caps">WSJ </span>(and the other financial news services) provide. The News Corp papers are consumer products, and are purchased at low prices for a few specific reasons: filling time, providing classifieds and local advertising, and so on.  That&#8217;s not as valuable to most people, and the price has to be lower or the product has to be better.</p>

	<p>novakant, if you look at these multiple sources, mostly they are repeating each other. (I make an exception for genuinely different sources like the English-language al-Jazeera.) On-the-ground reporting means paying reporters, and there&#8217;s been less and less money for that in the past few decades. Hmmm. I wonder if this is related to the attitudes that have brought on the global financial collapse. Less and less effort spent on actual work, more and more on pushing around the money made from actual work.</p>
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