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	<title>Comments on: Friends Don&#8217;t Let Friends Publish in Elsevier Journals</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Richard Baron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-2/#comment-275691</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Baron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 19:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275691</guid>
		<description>Katherine at post 36 is right. Going rather beyond what she said, and contemplating the collapse of traditional journal publishing arrangements with equanimity:

The papers are the important thing. What do journal titles add?

1. Access to a peer review service. We could organise that outside the context of established journals.

2. Knowledge that there has been reputable peer review.  We could deal with that problem by publishing the names of reviewers.  I know that&#039;s not traditional, but I don&#039;t see the problem. We are happy to be named in criticisms of other people&#039;s papers after their publication, when we write papers demolishing other people&#039;s arguments. 

Why do 1.  and 2. matter?

A. They give some quality control over the allocation of taxpayers&#039; money that takes place when it is decided who gets a job.  It helps to have published in the right journals. But reports from named referees could do just as well.

B. They direct our attention to what we really must read in order to keep up.  Read the top journals, and you&#039;re probably OK.  But an informal rumour mill (&quot;Have you seen X&#039;s great new paper?&quot;) could do that job.  Most things would get looked at by someone, and once two or three people you respected had told you about X&#039;s great new paper, you would go and read it. Come to think of it, one could set up an Internet-based voting system, and viewers could decide whose votes they wanted to be taken into account in generating recommendations for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Katherine at post 36 is right. Going rather beyond what she said, and contemplating the collapse of traditional journal publishing arrangements with equanimity:</p>

	<p>The papers are the important thing. What do journal titles add?</p>

	<p>1. Access to a peer review service. We could organise that outside the context of established journals.</p>

	<p>2. Knowledge that there has been reputable peer review.  We could deal with that problem by publishing the names of reviewers.  I know that&#8217;s not traditional, but I don&#8217;t see the problem. We are happy to be named in criticisms of other people&#8217;s papers after their publication, when we write papers demolishing other people&#8217;s arguments.</p>

	<p>Why do 1.  and 2. matter?</p>

	<p>A. They give some quality control over the allocation of taxpayers&#8217; money that takes place when it is decided who gets a job.  It helps to have published in the right journals. But reports from named referees could do just as well.</p>

	<p>B. They direct our attention to what we really must read in order to keep up.  Read the top journals, and you&#8217;re probably OK.  But an informal rumour mill (&#8220;Have you seen X&#8217;s great new paper?&#8221;) could do that job.  Most things would get looked at by someone, and once two or three people you respected had told you about X&#8217;s great new paper, you would go and read it. Come to think of it, one could set up an Internet-based voting system, and viewers could decide whose votes they wanted to be taken into account in generating recommendations for them.</p>
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		<title>By: James Rice</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-2/#comment-275649</link>
		<dc:creator>James Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 04:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275649</guid>
		<description>Disturbingly, as well as publishing journals, Elsevier also operates Scopus, which is the only reasonably credible alternative to Thomson Reuters&#039; ISI Web Of Knowledge for citation-based analysis. Citation-based analysis, of course, is used more and more in the evaluation of research performance. Given Elsevier&#039;s track record of unethical practices with this and other pseudo-journals, should we be concerned about Scopus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Disturbingly, as well as publishing journals, Elsevier also operates Scopus, which is the only reasonably credible alternative to Thomson Reuters&#8217; <span class="caps">ISI </span>Web Of Knowledge for citation-based analysis. Citation-based analysis, of course, is used more and more in the evaluation of research performance. Given Elsevier&#8217;s track record of unethical practices with this and other pseudo-journals, should we be concerned about Scopus?</p>
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		<title>By: David Cook</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-2/#comment-275472</link>
		<dc:creator>David Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 17:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275472</guid>
		<description>Is Elsevier the only publisher to be doing this sort of thing ?  Or just the only one to get caught ?  Or maybe the &lt;i&gt;first&lt;/i&gt; one to get caught ?

(disclaimer: I&#039;m not involved in any sort of academic work, just an interested bystander)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is Elsevier the only publisher to be doing this sort of thing ?  Or just the only one to get caught ?  Or maybe the <i>first</i> one to get caught ?</p>

	<p>(disclaimer: I&#8217;m not involved in any sort of academic work, just an interested bystander)</p>
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		<title>By: beamish</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275458</link>
		<dc:creator>beamish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 14:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275458</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There is no direct succession from the 17th C. Elzevir family and the decreasingly relevant Reed Elsevier publishing group.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m glad to learn it and am sorry for spreading falsehoods.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>There is no direct succession from the 17th C. Elzevir family and the decreasingly relevant Reed Elsevier publishing group.</i></p>

	<p>I&#8217;m glad to learn it and am sorry for spreading falsehoods.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275444</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 10:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275444</guid>
		<description>Check out also the saga of &#039;Topology&#039; -&gt; &#039;Journal of Topology. Shorter: Elsevier journal editorial board gets fed up with price-gouging, complain to no avail, jump ship en masse to set up rival journal on the web.

There&#039;s a remarkably cool open access journal here:
http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/ojs/index.php/journal
[Interest to declare - I&#039;ve reviewed for it and published in it]

The directory of open access journals is here:
http://www.doaj.org/
4000+</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Check out also the saga of &#8216;Topology&#8217; -> &#8216;Journal of Topology. Shorter: Elsevier journal editorial board gets fed up with price-gouging, complain to no avail, jump ship en masse to set up rival journal on the web.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s a remarkably cool open access journal here:<br />
<a href="http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/ojs/index.php/journal" rel="nofollow">http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/ojs/index.php/journal</a><br />
[Interest to declare &#8211; I&#8217;ve reviewed for it and published in it]</p>

	<p>The directory of open access journals is here:<br />
<a href="http://www.doaj.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.doaj.org/</a><br />
4000+</p>
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		<title>By: andrew_m</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275441</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew_m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 10:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275441</guid>
		<description>Re #20: The vegetation ecologists did much the same thing to Dr W Junk back in 1990. The International Association for Vegetation Science abandoned &lt;i&gt;Vegetatio&lt;/i&gt; and started &lt;i&gt;Journal of Vegetation Science&lt;/i&gt; just as I finished my PhD, with pretty much the same effect as &lt;i&gt;Labor History&lt;/i&gt;/&lt;i&gt;Labor&lt;/i&gt;.

Elsevier journals are prominent in agricultural &amp; ecological sciences, and in a milieu driven by impact factors it would be hard to get away from them as an individual; a clear majority of my peer-reviewed work would have been published by Elsevier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #20: The vegetation ecologists did much the same thing to Dr W Junk back in 1990. The International Association for Vegetation Science abandoned <i>Vegetatio</i> and started <i>Journal of Vegetation Science</i> just as I finished my PhD, with pretty much the same effect as <i>Labor History</i>/<i>Labor</i>.</p>

	<p>Elsevier journals are prominent in agricultural &#038; ecological sciences, and in a milieu driven by impact factors it would be hard to get away from them as an individual; a clear majority of my peer-reviewed work would have been published by Elsevier.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275438</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 09:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275438</guid>
		<description>(There is the “walk to the library, find the bound volume, OCR the article and upload it to...&quot; option. If you want to get medieval, or at least 18th century, on them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(There is the &#8220;walk to the library, find the bound volume, <span class="caps">OCR</span> the article and upload it to&#8230;&#8221; option. If you want to get medieval, or at least 18th century, on them.)</p>
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		<title>By: onymous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275418</link>
		<dc:creator>onymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 02:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275418</guid>
		<description>(There is the &quot;walk to the library, find the bound volume, and make a photocopy&quot; option, but that&#039;s so... &lt;i&gt;tedious&lt;/i&gt;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(There is the &#8220;walk to the library, find the bound volume, and make a photocopy&#8221; option, but that&#8217;s so&#8230; <i>tedious</i>.)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: onymous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275417</link>
		<dc:creator>onymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 02:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275417</guid>
		<description>The most troubling thing about Elsevier is that they control access to the archives of their journals. In my field it&#039;s easy to get new (or new-ish) papers online for free, but if you want to read something important from the 70s or 80s, chances are you&#039;re going through the Elsevier website to get to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The most troubling thing about Elsevier is that they control access to the archives of their journals. In my field it&#8217;s easy to get new (or new-ish) papers online for free, but if you want to read something important from the 70s or 80s, chances are you&#8217;re going through the Elsevier website to get to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene O'Grady</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275413</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene O'Grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 00:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275413</guid>
		<description>Glad to learn from Theo that this isn&#039;t the same Elsevier.  I&#039;ve got a four volume edition of both Senecas, with notes by the likes of Gronovius and Lipsius, that I paid all of ten pounds for.  Sounds like it would have been a lot more expensive if the new guys had had a hand in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Glad to learn from Theo that this isn&#8217;t the same Elsevier.  I&#8217;ve got a four volume edition of both Senecas, with notes by the likes of Gronovius and Lipsius, that I paid all of ten pounds for.  Sounds like it would have been a lot more expensive if the new guys had had a hand in it.</p>
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		<title>By: theo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275411</link>
		<dc:creator>theo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 23:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275411</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You’re probably going to want to put a grandfather clause in there, since Galileo and Descartes published with Elsevier.&lt;/i&gt;

There is no direct succession from the 17th C. Elzevir family and the decreasingly relevant Reed Elsevier publishing group.

Wikipedia: &quot;The family ceased printing in 1712, but a contemporary publisher Elsevier takes its name from this early modern business.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>You&#8217;re probably going to want to put a grandfather clause in there, since Galileo and Descartes published with Elsevier.</i></p>

	<p>There is no direct succession from the 17th C. Elzevir family and the decreasingly relevant Reed Elsevier publishing group.</p>

	<p>Wikipedia: &#8220;The family ceased printing in 1712, but a contemporary publisher Elsevier takes its name from this early modern business.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Felix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275378</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 18:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275378</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;[Really, I think it’d be useful to have a term for things like “this was an unacceptable practice” that aren’t grammatically passive voice but have the same function of obscuring the agent; perhaps we could just call them “passive formulations.”]&lt;/i&gt;

Wikipedia calls them “weasel words”; I think that&#039;s just as good a term as any. And much more honest than “passive formulations” which seems to be a way of criticising someone without actually out-and-out being critical. In fact, I&#039;d say that “passive formulation” is a passive formulation for “weasel words”.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>[Really, I think it&#8217;d be useful to have a term for things like &#8220;this was an unacceptable practice&#8221; that aren&#8217;t grammatically passive voice but have the same function of obscuring the agent; perhaps we could just call them &#8220;passive formulations.&#8221;]</i></p>

	<p>Wikipedia calls them &#8220;weasel words&#8221;; I think that&#8217;s just as good a term as any. And much more honest than &#8220;passive formulations&#8221; which seems to be a way of criticising someone without actually out-and-out being critical. In fact, I&#8217;d say that &#8220;passive formulation&#8221; is a passive formulation for &#8220;weasel words&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: carolyne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275376</link>
		<dc:creator>carolyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 17:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275376</guid>
		<description>Anyone know the names of the other pseudo&quot;journals&quot; published?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anyone know the names of the other pseudo&#8221;journals&#8221; published?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275363</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 15:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275363</guid>
		<description>Elsevier journals are generally among the more expensive. They are in no respects &quot;too big to fail&quot;, however, given that their failure as a publisher would have few implications for the journals they publish. As noted above, journals are 100% mobile given that publishers provide nothing except print costs and print distribution costs. The editorial boards and their networks of peer reviewers are what really make a particular journal. Even if you had to retitle it the journal, I don&#039;t think you&#039;d lose much: the old journals are the old journals, residing in libraries. It&#039;s not as if a modest retitling would somehow break a connection to the great players of yesteryear, or as if journal editorial boards are surrounded by dull portraits of their renowned predecessors. Not publishing with (or agreeing to edit) an Elsevier journal seems like an easy thing to do except for junior faculty in disciplines that are heavily locked into the company&#039;s publications. That&#039;s where senior people and administrations need to step in, and start rewarding or protecting junior faculty who publish open-access work. For Elsevier itself (and any similar journal publisher) failure would be a great contribution to the production of knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Elsevier journals are generally among the more expensive. They are in no respects &#8220;too big to fail&#8221;, however, given that their failure as a publisher would have few implications for the journals they publish. As noted above, journals are 100% mobile given that publishers provide nothing except print costs and print distribution costs. The editorial boards and their networks of peer reviewers are what really make a particular journal. Even if you had to retitle it the journal, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;d lose much: the old journals are the old journals, residing in libraries. It&#8217;s not as if a modest retitling would somehow break a connection to the great players of yesteryear, or as if journal editorial boards are surrounded by dull portraits of their renowned predecessors. Not publishing with (or agreeing to edit) an Elsevier journal seems like an easy thing to do except for junior faculty in disciplines that are heavily locked into the company&#8217;s publications. That&#8217;s where senior people and administrations need to step in, and start rewarding or protecting junior faculty who publish open-access work. For Elsevier itself (and any similar journal publisher) failure would be a great contribution to the production of knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/05/11/friends-dont-let-friends-publish-in-elsevier-journals/comment-page-1/#comment-275362</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 15:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11083#comment-275362</guid>
		<description>Hell, didn&#039;t notice Matt W&#039;s post before making my own. So just ignore mine, and look at his instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hell, didn&#8217;t notice Matt W&#8217;s post before making my own. So just ignore mine, and look at his instead.</p>
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