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	<title>Comments on: Keynesianism works in Australia</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Jock Bowden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-278062</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock Bowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-278062</guid>
		<description>I think it is pretty safe to say that without the dominance of monetary policy in Australia over the past 15 years, and the huge Howard/Costello budget surpluses, Australia would be in a far less fortunate position , similar to its peers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it is pretty safe to say that without the dominance of monetary policy in Australia over the past 15 years, and the huge Howard/Costello budget surpluses, Australia would be in a far less fortunate position , similar to its peers.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277987</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 00:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277987</guid>
		<description>On the specific claim made regarding coal prices, it appears to be (as we say in Oz) a furphy

http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/06/abs-nails-new-urban-myth.html

http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/d3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/023fd221b674319aca2575cc0001b775!OpenDocument</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the specific claim made regarding coal prices, it appears to be (as we say in Oz) a furphy</p>

	<p><a href="http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/06/abs-nails-new-urban-myth.html" rel="nofollow">http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/06/abs-nails-new-urban-myth.html</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/d3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/023fd221b674319aca2575cc0001b775!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/d3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/023fd221b674319aca2575cc0001b775!OpenDocument</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277976</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277976</guid>
		<description>Umm ... the linked claim regarding imports neglects the fact that the decline in imports matches a decline in investment. If you want to ignore one you should ignore the other. And the post notes the point about long-term contracts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Umm &#8230; the linked claim regarding imports neglects the fact that the decline in imports matches a decline in investment. If you want to ignore one you should ignore the other. And the post notes the point about long-term contracts.</p>
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		<title>By: john c. halasz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277971</link>
		<dc:creator>john c. halasz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 21:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277971</guid>
		<description>Um...http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/06/05/the-pool-room%e2%80%93
week-ending-friday-5th-june-2009/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Um&#8230;<a href="http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/06/05/the-pool-room%e2%80%93" rel="nofollow">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/06/05/the-pool-room%e2%80%93</a><br />
week-ending-friday-5th-june-2009/</p>
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		<title>By: cak</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277894</link>
		<dc:creator>cak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277894</guid>
		<description>Yes.  What I can&#039;t get my hands around is how to measure the causal effect of fiscal policy when we lack the counter-factual state of the world without the fiscal policy.  From my point of view there is no way to tell, based on one data point, whether the policy was a success or failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes.  What I can&#8217;t get my hands around is how to measure the causal effect of fiscal policy when we lack the counter-factual state of the world without the fiscal policy.  From my point of view there is no way to tell, based on one data point, whether the policy was a success or failure.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277853</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277853</guid>
		<description>cak, you do understand what a data point is, don&#039;t you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>cak, you do understand what a data point is, don&#8217;t you?</p>
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		<title>By: cak</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277824</link>
		<dc:creator>cak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277824</guid>
		<description>How do we know the Australian economy wasn&#039;t set to rebound before the stimulus?  It seems the entire country was treated at the same time.  I don&#039;t see any convincing reason to believe the stimulus truly caused the economy to rebound based on the information that was provided.  There may be more depth here than I realize but what I&#039;ve seen thus far in the post is unsatisfying for the conclusion that is drawn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How do we know the Australian economy wasn&#8217;t set to rebound before the stimulus?  It seems the entire country was treated at the same time.  I don&#8217;t see any convincing reason to believe the stimulus truly caused the economy to rebound based on the information that was provided.  There may be more depth here than I realize but what I&#8217;ve seen thus far in the post is unsatisfying for the conclusion that is drawn.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277813</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277813</guid>
		<description>10: Sort of. One thing that separates even (late?) Milton Friedman from his predecessors was the acceptance that gov&#039;t had a role in macroeconomics and that  monetary policy can and should be used to tame the business cycle and as counter-cyclical management. To a degree, Friedman was a Keynesian.

This post, or the Australisn experience, does seem to me to be evidence for Neo-Keynesianism, as I understand N-K. My impression was that temporary tax cuts or transfer payments had low multipliers and were relatively poor stimulus because consumers, knowing the measures were temporary, would save a larger proportion or repair balance sheets. This would be as compared to say infrastructure projects or measures like BI or ELR that would create changes in the MPC.

My most basic premise, and one I thought contradicted the N-K consensus, was the gov&#039;t &lt;i&gt;institutions&lt;/i&gt;, overt and permanent,  provided the basic security and confidence needed for economic growth. A gov&#039;t that taxed and then handed the checks to Goldman-Sachs, or taxed and passed the money to consumers. or cut taxes, would not really reduce perceived private risk and uncertainty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>10: Sort of. One thing that separates even (late?) Milton Friedman from his predecessors was the acceptance that gov&#8217;t had a role in macroeconomics and that  monetary policy can and should be used to tame the business cycle and as counter-cyclical management. To a degree, Friedman was a Keynesian.</p>

	<p>This post, or the Australisn experience, does seem to me to be evidence for Neo-Keynesianism, as I understand N-K. My impression was that temporary tax cuts or transfer payments had low multipliers and were relatively poor stimulus because consumers, knowing the measures were temporary, would save a larger proportion or repair balance sheets. This would be as compared to say infrastructure projects or measures like BI or <span class="caps">ELR</span> that would create changes in the <span class="caps">MPC</span>.</p>

	<p>My most basic premise, and one I thought contradicted the N-K consensus, was the gov&#8217;t <i>institutions</i>, overt and permanent,  provided the basic security and confidence needed for economic growth. A gov&#8217;t that taxed and then handed the checks to Goldman-Sachs, or taxed and passed the money to consumers. or cut taxes, would not really reduce perceived private risk and uncertainty.</p>
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		<title>By: StevenAttewell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277760</link>
		<dc:creator>StevenAttewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277760</guid>
		<description>Also, wasn&#039;t the premise of the Great Moderation that the business cycle had been tamed by monetary policy, such that Keynesianism was no longer needed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, wasn&#8217;t the premise of the Great Moderation that the business cycle had been tamed by monetary policy, such that Keynesianism was no longer needed?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277705</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277705</guid>
		<description>On the Great Moderation, I don&#039;t think it survives in the form it was presented.  Here was my anticipation of this possible outcome in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2009/01/05/refuted-economic-doctrines-3-the-great-moderation/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;original post&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;But even if the recession ends by mid-2009, as is suggested by some optimistic forecasters, crucial elements of the Great Moderation hypothesis have already been refuted. Over the period of the Great moderation, all the major components of aggregate output (consumption, investment and public spending) became more stable. By contrast, if a deep recession is avoided in 2009, this will be the result of a massive fiscal stimulus, with a huge increase in public expenditure (net of taxes) offsetting large reductions in private sector demand.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That still leaves open much weaker versions, like that of notsneaky. I&#039;ll respond a bit more on that later.

Kenny, I think the stimulus last year had some effect - it dampened a recession that was already under way, but it had pretty much been exhausted by October 08, and then there was nothing for quite a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the Great Moderation, I don&#8217;t think it survives in the form it was presented.  Here was my anticipation of this possible outcome in the <a href="http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2009/01/05/refuted-economic-doctrines-3-the-great-moderation/" rel="nofollow">original post</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>But even if the recession ends by mid-2009, as is suggested by some optimistic forecasters, crucial elements of the Great Moderation hypothesis have already been refuted. Over the period of the Great moderation, all the major components of aggregate output (consumption, investment and public spending) became more stable. By contrast, if a deep recession is avoided in 2009, this will be the result of a massive fiscal stimulus, with a huge increase in public expenditure (net of taxes) offsetting large reductions in private sector demand.</blockquote></p>

	<p>That still leaves open much weaker versions, like that of notsneaky. I&#8217;ll respond a bit more on that later.</p>

	<p>Kenny, I think the stimulus last year had some effect &#8211; it dampened a recession that was already under way, but it had pretty much been exhausted by October 08, and then there was nothing for quite a while.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277701</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 07:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277701</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, dsquared does make a good point here. If, what are essentially &quot;consensus&quot; (barring the usual suspects, and subject to the caveat that &quot;consensus&quot; in economics is always a lot less consensusy than in other endeavors) policy prescriptions are successful at counteracting a good chunk of the present crisis, then the whole idea of the &quot;great moderation&quot; is still not that far fetched, even in the light of recent events.
Or in other words, if the Australian experience shows what CAN happen with prudent policy making (assuming that it does in fact do this) then the end of the &quot;great moderation&quot; is not a failure of theory but of policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmmm, dsquared does make a good point here. If, what are essentially &#8220;consensus&#8221; (barring the usual suspects, and subject to the caveat that &#8220;consensus&#8221; in economics is always a lot less consensusy than in other endeavors) policy prescriptions are successful at counteracting a good chunk of the present crisis, then the whole idea of the &#8220;great moderation&#8221; is still not that far fetched, even in the light of recent events.<br />
Or in other words, if the Australian experience shows what <span class="caps">CAN</span> happen with prudent policy making (assuming that it does in fact do this) then the end of the &#8220;great moderation&#8221; is not a failure of theory but of policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277700</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 06:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277700</guid>
		<description>From your description it sounds like the only stimulus to arrive in time to affect the relevant quarter&#039;s growth rates is the cash handout - and didn&#039;t the US try that in April or May of last year?  I seem to recall getting a $600 check from the government.  But perhaps that came too early to have an effect at the relevant time, and I also don&#039;t know the size of the Australian handout.  (Speaking of which, since I was living and working in Australia in December of last year, is there any way that I should have gotten some of that cash?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From your description it sounds like the only stimulus to arrive in time to affect the relevant quarter&#8217;s growth rates is the cash handout &#8211; and didn&#8217;t the US try that in April or May of last year?  I seem to recall getting a $600 check from the government.  But perhaps that came too early to have an effect at the relevant time, and I also don&#8217;t know the size of the Australian handout.  (Speaking of which, since I was living and working in Australia in December of last year, is there any way that I should have gotten some of that cash?)</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277698</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 06:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277698</guid>
		<description>Doesn&#039;t this mean that &quot;the great moderation&quot; might be due for removal from the &quot;discredited economic doctrines&quot; list?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doesn&#8217;t this mean that &#8220;the great moderation&#8221; might be due for removal from the &#8220;discredited economic doctrines&#8221; list?</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277682</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 03:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277682</guid>
		<description>What have you got against crocodiles, Engels?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What have you got against crocodiles, Engels?</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/03/keynesianism-works-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-277680</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 03:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11409#comment-277680</guid>
		<description>I propose an academic exchange: the AEA majority is shipped to Oz and fed to the crocodiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I propose an academic exchange: the <span class="caps">AEA</span> majority is shipped to Oz and fed to the crocodiles.</p>
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