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	<title>Comments on: Welcome Michèle Lamont</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Clarity</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-279505</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-279505</guid>
		<description>Thank you Michele.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thank you Michele.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278380</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278380</guid>
		<description>Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Michele Lamont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278368</link>
		<dc:creator>Michele Lamont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278368</guid>
		<description>For Money, Morals, and Manners I only interviewed men because I wanted to study those who define the norms in the workplace --men. Moreover, the book had several other levels of comparison (e.g., cultural and social specialists vs forprofit workers; residents of cutlural peripheries (Indianapolis and Clermont-Ferrand) vs cutlural centers (New York and Paris). I did conduct a smaller number of interviews with women for this book, but the focus was men.  
In Dignity of Working Men, I sticked with men in order to compare the upper-middle class interviews from the first book with a population of blue-c0llar workers and low-status white collar workers. This book also compared whites and blacks in New York and whites and north African immigrants in France.  
Ideally, a third book would have compared women across classes and across national settings. But having spent ten years working on class cultures, I was ready for something else. I&#039;d be happy if someone else took on the project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For Money, Morals, and Manners I only interviewed men because I wanted to study those who define the norms in the workplace&#8212;men. Moreover, the book had several other levels of comparison (e.g., cultural and social specialists vs forprofit workers; residents of cutlural peripheries (Indianapolis and Clermont-Ferrand) vs cutlural centers (New York and Paris). I did conduct a smaller number of interviews with women for this book, but the focus was men.<br />
In Dignity of Working Men, I sticked with men in order to compare the upper-middle class interviews from the first book with a population of blue-c0llar workers and low-status white collar workers. This book also compared whites and blacks in New York and whites and north African immigrants in France.<br />
Ideally, a third book would have compared women across classes and across national settings. But having spent ten years working on class cultures, I was ready for something else. I&#8217;d be happy if someone else took on the project.</p>
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		<title>By: Clarity</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278323</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278323</guid>
		<description>I find this debate captivating, I wonder, would it get any juicier if we all actually READ the books?

Bob, please don&#039;t retreat, it was a question to your question and your contribution helped spark the above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find this debate captivating, I wonder, would it get any juicier if we all actually <span class="caps">READ</span> the books?</p>

	<p>Bob, please don&#8217;t retreat, it was a question to your question and your contribution helped spark the above.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278124</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278124</guid>
		<description>It wasn&#039;t meant to be hostile, and honestly if I am told by the author (or the crowd) that &quot;Gender Roolz, dood, and that&#039;s a sexist question&quot; I will retreat and go examine myself, as so many socialists have for decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It wasn&#8217;t meant to be hostile, and honestly if I am told by the author (or the crowd) that &#8220;Gender Roolz, dood, and that&#8217;s a sexist question&#8221; I will retreat and go examine myself, as so many socialists have for decades.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278123</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278123</guid>
		<description>It wasn&#039;t just white men, but she also interviewed men of color. Ir wasn&#039;t just professionals, the second book was about the working class.

Now if American professional &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; working class women have such radically different attitudes toward &lt;i&gt;class&lt;/i&gt; from their male counterparts that they must be studied separately, well, that&#039;s interesting in itself, isn&#039;t it? Women do trend more liberal and Democratic than men, I think, but not so much that political pollsters exclude them from generalized questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It wasn&#8217;t just white men, but she also interviewed men of color. Ir wasn&#8217;t just professionals, the second book was about the working class.</p>

	<p>Now if American professional <i>and</i> working class women have such radically different attitudes toward <i>class</i> from their male counterparts that they must be studied separately, well, that&#8217;s interesting in itself, isn&#8217;t it? Women do trend more liberal and Democratic than men, I think, but not so much that political pollsters exclude them from generalized questions.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278121</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278121</guid>
		<description>Well, there&#039;s a warm welcome already!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, there&#8217;s a warm welcome already!</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278120</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278120</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; would you have asked the question if Lamont were a man, Bob? And if not, why not?&lt;/i&gt;

Yup. See 4.3. 

&quot;Michèle Lamont provides a rare and revealing collective portrait of the upper-middle class—the managers, professionals, entrepreneurs, and experts at the center of power in society. Her book is a subtle, textured description of how these men define the values and attitudes they consider essential in separating themselves—and their class—from everyone else.&quot; ...blurb

Sorry. Don&#039;t know about you, but my instant reaction to this is: Why not women? They are professionals and entrepeneurs and Ivy League Grads too.

Maybe not so much in France? It was just a question. Honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> would you have asked the question if Lamont were a man, Bob? And if not, why not?</i></p>

	<p>Yup. See 4.3.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Mich&#232;le Lamont provides a rare and revealing collective portrait of the upper-middle class&#8212;the managers, professionals, entrepreneurs, and experts at the center of power in society. Her book is a subtle, textured description of how these men define the values and attitudes they consider essential in separating themselves&#8212;and their class&#8212;from everyone else.&#8221; &#8230;blurb</p>

	<p>Sorry. Don&#8217;t know about you, but my instant reaction to this is: Why not women? They are professionals and entrepeneurs and Ivy League Grads too.</p>

	<p>Maybe not so much in France? It was just a question. Honest.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikhail</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278110</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikhail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 09:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278110</guid>
		<description>Yes... and here we go with the &quot;dominance of men&quot;... Who cares why the question was asked? As long as the question is interesting and potentially bearing on the ability of the results to generalize to other age/race/nationality groups!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes&#8230; and here we go with the &#8220;dominance of men&#8221;&#8230; Who cares why the question was asked? As long as the question is interesting and potentially bearing on the ability of the results to generalize to other age/race/nationality groups!</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278104</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278104</guid>
		<description>The second book says it in the title - &quot;The Dignity of Working &lt;i&gt;Men&lt;/i&gt;&quot;.

As to the first, it think the fact that social scientists restrict their studies to a single race, demographic, cohort etc - one that always just happens to be white men - is a poor excuse for such exclusionary practices, and contibutes to the very exclusion of voices other than white, male ones.

Clarity is right in one respect though - would you have asked the question if Lamont were a man, Bob?  And if not, why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The second book says it in the title &#8211; &#8220;The Dignity of Working <i>Men</i>&#8220;.</p>

	<p>As to the first, it think the fact that social scientists restrict their studies to a single race, demographic, cohort etc &#8211; one that always just happens to be white men &#8211; is a poor excuse for such exclusionary practices, and contibutes to the very exclusion of voices other than white, male ones.</p>

	<p>Clarity is right in one respect though &#8211; would you have asked the question if Lamont were a man, Bob?  And if not, why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Glavodevedhzhe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278092</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Glavodevedhzhe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 04:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278092</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it possible that Lamont restricts her study to white men for the same reason other social scientists restrict their studies to a single race, demographic, cohort, etc.--to exclude explanations by other variables? I haven&#039;t read the book (just the blurbs), but among other things, Lamont is trying to isolate the differences in attitudes about success between France and the US. From a methodological standpoint, focusing narrowly on one race and one gender should help capture the difference more clearly. 

But I agree with Clarity, the upper middle class is still mostly made up of white men. The choice of subjects was probably inevitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Isn&#8217;t it possible that Lamont restricts her study to white men for the same reason other social scientists restrict their studies to a single race, demographic, cohort, etc.&#8212;to exclude explanations by other variables? I haven&#8217;t read the book (just the blurbs), but among other things, Lamont is trying to isolate the differences in attitudes about success between France and the US. From a methodological standpoint, focusing narrowly on one race and one gender should help capture the difference more clearly.</p>

	<p>But I agree with Clarity, the upper middle class is still mostly made up of white men. The choice of subjects was probably inevitable.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278085</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278085</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Perhaps she might tackle Emmeline Pankhurst afterwards?&lt;/i&gt;

Or all four (five if Richard counts) Pankhursts, and discuss why Emmeline and Christabel moderated their socialism over time while Adele and Sylvia became active communists.

I was expecting something as simple as wanting to limit the variables in a comparative study, and presumed it was covered in her introductions.

There are, of course, arguments on the far left about whether class, or race, gender, colonial history should be the controlling independent variables, and since Lamont apparently does include a discussion of racial differences (&quot;Workers also draw rigid racial boundaries...&quot; from the blurb) I again found the removal of gender interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> Perhaps she might tackle Emmeline Pankhurst afterwards?</i></p>

	<p>Or all four (five if Richard counts) Pankhursts, and discuss why Emmeline and Christabel moderated their socialism over time while Adele and Sylvia became active communists.</p>

	<p>I was expecting something as simple as wanting to limit the variables in a comparative study, and presumed it was covered in her introductions.</p>

	<p>There are, of course, arguments on the far left about whether class, or race, gender, colonial history should be the controlling independent variables, and since Lamont apparently does include a discussion of racial differences (&#8220;Workers also draw rigid racial boundaries&#8230;&#8221; from the blurb) I again found the removal of gender interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278084</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278084</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As a woman I have to ask&lt;/i&gt;

No, you don&#039;t. Be free.

As I am free to ask a question that contains not a hint of criticism or judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>As a woman I have to ask</i></p>

	<p>No, you don&#8217;t. Be free.</p>

	<p>As I am free to ask a question that contains not a hint of criticism or judgement.</p>
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		<title>By: Clarity</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278081</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278081</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read them either. 

Perhaps there&#039;s a reason for her choice. For example, most of our leaders are male and thus the drip-down effect in society negates women being the social protagonists in her chosen works. Perhaps she might tackle Emmeline Pankhurst afterwards? 

As a woman I have to ask, why does she HAVE to write about women? Is she less of a writer or teacher because of that? Why can&#039;t she be judged on her work and not her chromosomes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I haven&#8217;t read them either.</p>

	<p>Perhaps there&#8217;s a reason for her choice. For example, most of our leaders are male and thus the drip-down effect in society negates women being the social protagonists in her chosen works. Perhaps she might tackle Emmeline Pankhurst afterwards?</p>

	<p>As a woman I have to ask, why does she <span class="caps">HAVE</span> to write about women? Is she less of a writer or teacher because of that? Why can&#8217;t she be judged on her work and not her chromosomes?</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/07/welcome-michele-lamont/comment-page-1/#comment-278072</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11444#comment-278072</guid>
		<description>Ok, I wasn&#039;t going to comment, but clicking through the links I saw that the first two books used samples of French and American &lt;i&gt;men&lt;/i&gt; while her area of study wouldn&#039;t necessarily exclude women. Interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ok, I wasn&#8217;t going to comment, but clicking through the links I saw that the first two books used samples of French and American <i>men</i> while her area of study wouldn&#8217;t necessarily exclude women. Interesting.</p>
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