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	<title>Comments on: Disciplinary pecking order, what defines theory, what is a philosopher, and other musings</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:02:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-279461</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-279461</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Thank you Engels for lobbing me that softball pitch that allowed me my coda.&lt;/i&gt;

Je vous en prie!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Thank you Engels for lobbing me that softball pitch that allowed me my coda.</i></p>

	<p>Je vous en prie!</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Frug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-279048</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Frug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 04:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-279048</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t resist:

&quot;What&#039;s a philosopher?&quot; said Brutha.
&quot;Someone who&#039;s bright enough to find a job with no heavy lifting,&quot; said a voice in his head.

-- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Can&#8217;t resist:</p>

	<p>&#8220;What&#8217;s a philosopher?&#8221; said Brutha.<br />
&#8220;Someone who&#8217;s bright enough to find a job with no heavy lifting,&#8221; said a voice in his head.<br />
&#8212;Terry Pratchett, Small Gods</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-278436</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278436</guid>
		<description>102-104:

&lt;i&gt;In giving up dependence on the concept of an uninterpreted reality, something outside of all schemes and science, we do not relinquish the notion of objective truth - quite the contrary. Given the dogma of a dualism of scheme and reality, we get conceptual relativity, and truth relative to a scheme. Without the dogma, this kind of relativity goes by the board.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not going to argue for Davidson. Somehow, I don&#039;t think I can improve on him ;-)

Nevertheless, &#039;ueber-scheme&#039; and &#039;one big science&#039; is exactly what he says he doesn&#039;t need to be positing or assuming and why his point is so interesting to humanities (and, by the way, why the humanities should not accept the superiority of the &#039;exact&#039; sciences).

His insistence on the concept of truth is not about language (I don&#039;t think he&#039;d say that truth is a notion relative to language) but on the possibility of having objective truth (against scepticism, solipsism) i.e. having an extralinguistic benchmark to separate true from false statements. &#039;I am not a native speaker in English&#039; is objectively true regardless of the language in which it is stated (the reason being that my native language is Dutch).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>102-104:</p>

	<p><i>In giving up dependence on the concept of an uninterpreted reality, something outside of all schemes and science, we do not relinquish the notion of objective truth &#8211; quite the contrary. Given the dogma of a dualism of scheme and reality, we get conceptual relativity, and truth relative to a scheme. Without the dogma, this kind of relativity goes by the board.</i></p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not going to argue for Davidson. Somehow, I don&#8217;t think I can improve on him ;-)</p>

	<p>Nevertheless, &#8216;ueber-scheme&#8217; and &#8216;one big science&#8217; is exactly what he says he doesn&#8217;t need to be positing or assuming and why his point is so interesting to humanities (and, by the way, why the humanities should not accept the superiority of the &#8216;exact&#8217; sciences).</p>

	<p>His insistence on the concept of truth is not about language (I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;d say that truth is a notion relative to language) but on the possibility of having objective truth (against scepticism, solipsism) i.e. having an extralinguistic benchmark to separate true from false statements. &#8216;I am not a native speaker in English&#8217; is objectively true regardless of the language in which it is stated (the reason being that my native language is Dutch).</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-278428</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278428</guid>
		<description>Re. novakant@100, as I understand it the &quot;standard&quot; interpretation of &quot;we need to examine the gray areas&quot; is something like &quot;consilience&quot;: although every science has its own information structure, and we are at present divided by the incommensurability between our various partial knowledges, we can and should work to merge sciences into an eventual whole--not philosophy, but one big science (including the social sciences and human sciences, usually).  I&#039;m not sure whether Davidson agrees (I&#039;ve only read two articles of his).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re. novakant@100, as I understand it the &#8220;standard&#8221; interpretation of &#8220;we need to examine the gray areas&#8221; is something like &#8220;consilience&#8221;: although every science has its own information structure, and we are at present divided by the incommensurability between our various partial knowledges, we can and should work to merge sciences into an eventual whole&#8212;not philosophy, but one big science (including the social sciences and human sciences, usually).  I&#8217;m not sure whether Davidson agrees (I&#8217;ve only read two articles of his).</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-278423</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278423</guid>
		<description>oops, double negative in the last sentence, but I think you&#039;ll get what I &quot;meant&quot;, lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>oops, double negative in the last sentence, but I think you&#8217;ll get what I &#8220;meant&#8221;, lol</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-278421</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278421</guid>
		<description>I think Davidson needs to posit at least in theory some sort of ueber-scheme to end all schemes, even if he wants to throw out the whole concept of scheme vs. world and doesn&#039;t want to call it a scheme. Here he&#039;s just conceding that we&#039;re not quite there yet. In the next paragraph he talks about not giving up the notion of &quot;objective truth&quot;, if only &quot;relative to language&quot;, but within the realm of language there are, at least potentially, no incommensurable blind spots. I think that such blind spots exist, both on an individual and a cultural level and that we can only try to approximate, but never fully capture, their reality through language. That said, I&#039;m certainly not denying that Davidson&#039;s claim isn&#039;t of interest to the humanities, it&#039;s interesting and provocative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Davidson needs to posit at least in theory some sort of ueber-scheme to end all schemes, even if he wants to throw out the whole concept of scheme vs. world and doesn&#8217;t want to call it a scheme. Here he&#8217;s just conceding that we&#8217;re not quite there yet. In the next paragraph he talks about not giving up the notion of &#8220;objective truth&#8221;, if only &#8220;relative to language&#8221;, but within the realm of language there are, at least potentially, no incommensurable blind spots. I think that such blind spots exist, both on an individual and a cultural level and that we can only try to approximate, but never fully capture, their reality through language. That said, I&#8217;m certainly not denying that Davidson&#8217;s claim isn&#8217;t of interest to the humanities, it&#8217;s interesting and provocative.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-3/#comment-278415</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278415</guid>
		<description>Cited from Davidson&#039;s paper apparently in question:

&lt;i&gt;It would be equally wrong to announce the glorious news that all mankind - all speakers of language, at least - share a common scheme and ontology. For if we cannot say that schemes are different, neither can we intelligibly say that they are one.&lt;/i&gt;

As far as I know, he didn&#039;t think this position defeated the inscrutability theses.

I do think that he established that you can work at understanding each other and, in fact, that an extreme cultural relativism (or absolutism) is untenable. And if that would not be useful outside the field of philosophy, what would be useful outside of it? Certainly given the humanities are in many cases the field where culture relativism and absolutism are at the center of debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cited from Davidson&#8217;s paper apparently in question:</p>

	<p><i>It would be equally wrong to announce the glorious news that all mankind &#8211; all speakers of language, at least &#8211; share a common scheme and ontology. For if we cannot say that schemes are different, neither can we intelligibly say that they are one.</i></p>

	<p>As far as I know, he didn&#8217;t think this position defeated the inscrutability theses.</p>

	<p>I do think that he established that you can work at understanding each other and, in fact, that an extreme cultural relativism (or absolutism) is untenable. And if that would not be useful outside the field of philosophy, what would be useful outside of it? Certainly given the humanities are in many cases the field where culture relativism and absolutism are at the center of debate.</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278412</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278412</guid>
		<description>loren, Davidson is certainly not a moron, but I think his claim, that there are no conceptual schemes, or rather that there is only one conceptual scheme common to all of us, is too strong or maybe just too general. The problem with his approach is that he seems to jump straight from a refutation of incommensurability to the claim of universal translatability. 

This is far too neat to be accurate and we need to examine the gray areas where translation is only partially successful and we are left with both a shift in meaning and elements that remain incommensurable. Literature as the highest form of human expression in language can serve as an extreme example, of what is actually very commonplace in ordinary communication. Whenever a poet tries to translate his feelings, experiences and thoughts into written language, a reader tries to translate a text into a something that he can connect with or a translator tries to translate a text from one language to another, something gets lost in the process and there are shifts in meaning. 

These gray areas of only partially successful translation are pervasive, the norm rather than the exception, and they cannot be explained away by the notion of an imagined omniscient interpreter. And while hilzoy points out that &quot;translation&quot; in these debates has a wider meaning than that of our ordinary language use of the word, I would still hold that the act of translating a text from one language to another is the closest we can get to actually experiencing and really understanding how shifts in meaning occur and what incommensurability means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>loren, Davidson is certainly not a moron, but I think his claim, that there are no conceptual schemes, or rather that there is only one conceptual scheme common to all of us, is too strong or maybe just too general. The problem with his approach is that he seems to jump straight from a refutation of incommensurability to the claim of universal translatability.</p>

	<p>This is far too neat to be accurate and we need to examine the gray areas where translation is only partially successful and we are left with both a shift in meaning and elements that remain incommensurable. Literature as the highest form of human expression in language can serve as an extreme example, of what is actually very commonplace in ordinary communication. Whenever a poet tries to translate his feelings, experiences and thoughts into written language, a reader tries to translate a text into a something that he can connect with or a translator tries to translate a text from one language to another, something gets lost in the process and there are shifts in meaning.</p>

	<p>These gray areas of only partially successful translation are pervasive, the norm rather than the exception, and they cannot be explained away by the notion of an imagined omniscient interpreter. And while hilzoy points out that &#8220;translation&#8221; in these debates has a wider meaning than that of our ordinary language use of the word, I would still hold that the act of translating a text from one language to another is the closest we can get to actually experiencing and really understanding how shifts in meaning occur and what incommensurability means.</p>
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		<title>By: hilzoy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278375</link>
		<dc:creator>hilzoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278375</guid>
		<description>sleepy (also useful for magistra): In analytic philosophy, &#039;language&#039; often means, roughly, &#039;conceptual scheme&#039;, and &#039;translation&#039; means translating something from one conceptual scheme to a different one, not translating something from, say, English to German.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sleepy (also useful for magistra): In analytic philosophy, &#8216;language&#8217; often means, roughly, &#8216;conceptual scheme&#8217;, and &#8216;translation&#8217; means translating something from one conceptual scheme to a different one, not translating something from, say, English to German.</p>
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		<title>By: sleepy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278370</link>
		<dc:creator>sleepy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278370</guid>
		<description>[aeiou]Don&#039;t tempt  me, asshole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dn&#8217;t tmpt  m, sshl.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278364</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278364</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think in the last two I said just about all I ever wanted to say on this site.&lt;/i&gt;

My god, I hope you mean it this time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I think in the last two I said just about all I ever wanted to say on this site.</i></p>

	<p>My god, I hope you mean it this time!</p>
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		<title>By: sleepy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278363</link>
		<dc:creator>sleepy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278363</guid>
		<description>I think in the last two I said just about all I ever wanted to say on this site.
I described what I&#039;ve always assumed to be obvious, in a way that I think made that obviousness quite clear.
Thank you Engels for lobbing me that softball pitch that allowed me my coda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think in the last two I said just about all I ever wanted to say on this site.<br />
I described what I&#8217;ve always assumed to be obvious, in a way that I think made that obviousness quite clear.<br />
Thank you Engels for lobbing me that softball pitch that allowed me my coda.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278360</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278360</guid>
		<description>@93 Yes, sorry. Overweeningly impatient to introduce something concrete for people to triangulate on...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@93 Yes, sorry. Overweeningly impatient to introduce something concrete for people to triangulate on&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: loren</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278355</link>
		<dc:creator>loren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278355</guid>
		<description>novakant, I&#039;m certainly not disputing &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt;. It just doesn&#039;t persuade me that Davidson and other analytic sorts are morons simply because it&#039;s a difficult, time-consuming, and inevitably incomplete process, explaining art and poetry across languages and cultures. And yet we still labour mightily to do so. I see that as partly a vindication of Davidson, not a refutation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>novakant, I&#8217;m certainly not disputing <i>that</i>. It just doesn&#8217;t persuade me that Davidson and other analytic sorts are morons simply because it&#8217;s a difficult, time-consuming, and inevitably incomplete process, explaining art and poetry across languages and cultures. And yet we still labour mightily to do so. I see that as partly a vindication of Davidson, not a refutation.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/08/disciplinary-pecking-order-what-defines-theory-what-is-a-philosopher-and-other-musings/comment-page-2/#comment-278353</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11452#comment-278353</guid>
		<description>TIm @77,  here in Oz, we tend to sleep a lot in winter, hence delay in reply :-)

I&#039;ll toss in another example which might push things along. Psychologists seem quite happy to have lots of models of different aspects of human behavior, cognitive processes and so on. Economists, even behavioral economists, very strongly prefer a unitary model, at the (much-remarked on) cost of oversimplification. That affects what counts as an adequate explanation of observed outcomes.

If I can get some free time (hah!), I&#039;ll try and work up a proper post on this while Michéle is visiting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>TIm @77,  here in Oz, we tend to sleep a lot in winter, hence delay in reply :-)</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ll toss in another example which might push things along. Psychologists seem quite happy to have lots of models of different aspects of human behavior, cognitive processes and so on. Economists, even behavioral economists, very strongly prefer a unitary model, at the (much-remarked on) cost of oversimplification. That affects what counts as an adequate explanation of observed outcomes.</p>

	<p>If I can get some free time (hah!), I&#8217;ll try and work up a proper post on this while Mich&#233;le is visiting.</p>
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