<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The BNP and the Egging Laffer Curve</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 08:01:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jock Bowden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279856</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock Bowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279856</guid>
		<description>But the idea Australia has  significant race problem is bullshit pushed by those who have a vested professional interest in stoking &#039;Racism Panic&#039;.

And even to compare Australia to the current social collapse of England is just daft!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But the idea Australia has  significant race problem is bullshit pushed by those who have a vested professional interest in stoking &#8216;Racism Panic&#8217;.</p>

	<p>And even to compare Australia to the current social collapse of England is just daft!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jock Bowden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279854</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock Bowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279854</guid>
		<description>claw&#039;s summary is great, but to those ALP apparatchiks above who deny a century of ALP anti-Asian racism and policy? You&#039;re dreamin&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>claw&#8217;s summary is great, but to those <span class="caps">ALP</span> apparatchiks above who deny a century of <span class="caps">ALP</span> anti-Asian racism and policy? You&#8217;re dreamin&#8217;.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tomy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279841</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279841</guid>
		<description>Said the thrower: &quot;You are such a bad person that I will support the continued harming and killing of battery cage confined hens economically by buying eggs to throw at you. Stop being a fascist or I will indirectly harm even more lesser beings!&quot;

I say: tomato!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Said the thrower: &#8220;You are such a bad person that I will support the continued harming and killing of battery cage confined hens economically by buying eggs to throw at you. Stop being a fascist or I will indirectly harm even more lesser beings!&#8221;</p>

	<p>I say: tomato!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Map Maker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279661</link>
		<dc:creator>Map Maker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 02:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279661</guid>
		<description>&quot;In short, the issue of race and immigration in Australia has cut across political lines and neither accusations of racism nor celebrations of openness belong exclusively to either side of the house.&quot;

But not so in Japan, where opposition to non-racial Japanese immigration is relatively non-controversial and widely accepted across the political elites and the voting population.  Yet that policy isn&#039;t generally defined by whites as racist ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;In short, the issue of race and immigration in Australia has cut across political lines and neither accusations of racism nor celebrations of openness belong exclusively to either side of the house.&#8221;</p>

	<p>But not so in Japan, where opposition to non-racial Japanese immigration is relatively non-controversial and widely accepted across the political elites and the voting population.  Yet that policy isn&#8217;t generally defined by whites as racist &#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: claw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279519</link>
		<dc:creator>claw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279519</guid>
		<description>Time for a little history lesson about Australian immigration. The White Australia Policy was one of the first Acts of Parliament passed in Australia. It was designed by the Protectionist Party (oh for the days when you could work out everything you needed to know about a party from its name!) but it was with support from the Labor Party (in fact, the Protectionist Party was only allowed to form government with minority Labor support *on condition* of passing the White Australia Policy).

From that time on, however, the planks of the White Australia Policy had been steadily whittled away by both Labor and conservative parties with occasional rabid reinvigoration from either side (Arthur Calwell of Labor and Stanley Bruce of the Nationalist Party were both staunch advocates). Gough Whitlam (Labor) finally disposed of the policy once and for all, but it was Malcolm Fraser (Liberal) who ushered in the law that race was not to be a consideration in any immigration application.

In short, the issue of race and immigration in Australia has cut across political lines and neither accusations of racism nor celebrations of openness belong exclusively to either side of the house. And as for Whitlam&#039;s demonisation of Vietnamese refugees -- it is indeed indefensible but it had nothing to do with race. Whitlam was opposed to Vietnamese refugees on the grounds that he did not want to accept anti-communists into Australia. This was, of course, reprehensible. But not racist. One of the stated purposes of Whitlam&#039;s policy was to improve Australia&#039;s relations with the communist regime in Vietnam. Hardly what one would expect if the purpose of the exercise was to discriminate against Asians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Time for a little history lesson about Australian immigration. The White Australia Policy was one of the first Acts of Parliament passed in Australia. It was designed by the Protectionist Party (oh for the days when you could work out everything you needed to know about a party from its name!) but it was with support from the Labor Party (in fact, the Protectionist Party was only allowed to form government with minority Labor support <strong>on condition</strong> of passing the White Australia Policy).</p>

	<p>From that time on, however, the planks of the White Australia Policy had been steadily whittled away by both Labor and conservative parties with occasional rabid reinvigoration from either side (Arthur Calwell of Labor and Stanley Bruce of the Nationalist Party were both staunch advocates). Gough Whitlam (Labor) finally disposed of the policy once and for all, but it was Malcolm Fraser (Liberal) who ushered in the law that race was not to be a consideration in any immigration application.</p>

	<p>In short, the issue of race and immigration in Australia has cut across political lines and neither accusations of racism nor celebrations of openness belong exclusively to either side of the house. And as for Whitlam&#8217;s demonisation of Vietnamese refugees&#8212;it is indeed indefensible but it had nothing to do with race. Whitlam was opposed to Vietnamese refugees on the grounds that he did not want to accept anti-communists into Australia. This was, of course, reprehensible. But not racist. One of the stated purposes of Whitlam&#8217;s policy was to improve Australia&#8217;s relations with the communist regime in Vietnam. Hardly what one would expect if the purpose of the exercise was to discriminate against Asians.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279502</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279502</guid>
		<description>As an Australian, I have to say Jock Bowden is simply misrepresenting the state of play in Australia.

For a start, most of the immigrant communities are Labor bulwarks (hence Howard&#039;s attempts at dogwhistling to isolate them).  The notable exception is UK immigrants who are the biggest pool of anti-Asian sentiment.  For a second Australia takes in more immigrants per capita than Britain, and from more diverse sources (I reckon the last bit is a key to minimising nativist resentment, BTW).

I wouldn&#039;t argue that xenophobes don&#039;t exist in Australia, but IME they are considerably less prevalent than - if quite as nasty as -  British xenophobes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As an Australian, I have to say Jock Bowden is simply misrepresenting the state of play in Australia.</p>

	<p>For a start, most of the immigrant communities are Labor bulwarks (hence Howard&#8217;s attempts at dogwhistling to isolate them).  The notable exception is UK immigrants who are the biggest pool of anti-Asian sentiment.  For a second Australia takes in more immigrants per capita than Britain, and from more diverse sources (I reckon the last bit is a key to minimising nativist resentment, <span class="caps">BTW</span>).</p>

	<p>I wouldn&#8217;t argue that xenophobes don&#8217;t exist in Australia, but <span class="caps">IME</span> they are considerably less prevalent than &#8211; if quite as nasty as &#8211;  British xenophobes.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Map Maker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279483</link>
		<dc:creator>Map Maker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279483</guid>
		<description>Let me second Iconoclast - may be because in America we&#039;re better armed, but in general, I&#039;d believe supporters of the BNP would have less to lose by resorting to violence than a bunch of academics and their under-employed graduate students ;-) Given how the IRA was able to sustain a campaign of violence for quite some time, I&#039;d imagine pushing a group of like minded people into violence would probably be more effective at keeping immigrants out of the UK than any hope they would have at the ballot box.  Firebomb a few restaurants, schools, places of employment, the cycle of violence can really be easy to start and take a long time to slow.  I think you&#039;d really rather not have the BNP represent the political voice of some violent group, though Sein Fein certainly has more than a millino quid of resources at their disposal...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Let me second Iconoclast &#8211; may be because in America we&#8217;re better armed, but in general, I&#8217;d believe supporters of the <span class="caps">BNP</span> would have less to lose by resorting to violence than a bunch of academics and their under-employed graduate students ;-) Given how the <span class="caps">IRA</span> was able to sustain a campaign of violence for quite some time, I&#8217;d imagine pushing a group of like minded people into violence would probably be more effective at keeping immigrants out of the UK than any hope they would have at the ballot box.  Firebomb a few restaurants, schools, places of employment, the cycle of violence can really be easy to start and take a long time to slow.  I think you&#8217;d really rather not have the <span class="caps">BNP</span> represent the political voice of some violent group, though Sein Fein certainly has more than a millino quid of resources at their disposal&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Risk Supporter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279423</link>
		<dc:creator>Risk Supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279423</guid>
		<description>My grandad thinks they should bring back national service, whereas I believe all middle class students should participate in an obligatory gap year consisting of voluntary work in the inner cities of their own country. Perhaps this would lead to a more informed understanding of working class experience, rather than simply viewing it as incipiently backward and fascist. 
Perhaps also we could have enforced multiculturalism/enrichment on the doorstep of the decision makers. 
Once these policies are in place then perhaps we could have a more balanced &#039;conversation&#039; about the real issues dividing this country: individualism, consumerism, break down of community, alienation, lack of social mobility, priveledge, confused social cohesion etc...hardly dissolusioned Tory voters!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My grandad thinks they should bring back national service, whereas I believe all middle class students should participate in an obligatory gap year consisting of voluntary work in the inner cities of their own country. Perhaps this would lead to a more informed understanding of working class experience, rather than simply viewing it as incipiently backward and fascist.<br />
Perhaps also we could have enforced multiculturalism/enrichment on the doorstep of the decision makers.<br />
Once these policies are in place then perhaps we could have a more balanced &#8216;conversation&#8217; about the real issues dividing this country: individualism, consumerism, break down of community, alienation, lack of social mobility, priveledge, confused social cohesion etc&#8230;hardly dissolusioned Tory voters!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279375</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279375</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true a girl lost her eye to an egging in Australia recently. The BNP would never pluck out an immigrant&#039;s eye!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s true a girl lost her eye to an egging in Australia recently. The <span class="caps">BNP</span> would never pluck out an immigrant&#8217;s eye!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: socialrepublican</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279310</link>
		<dc:creator>socialrepublican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 01:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279310</guid>
		<description>71 - &#039;I’m no historian&#039;

Nope, you really aren&#039;t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>71 &#8211; &#8216;I&#8217;m no historian&#8217;</p>

	<p>Nope, you really aren&#8217;t</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cheerful Iconoclast</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279308</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheerful Iconoclast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279308</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a fan of the BNP, and I&#039;d certainly vote against a similar party here in the US.

But I have to say that this discussion has not been impressive.  Egging somebody may indeed send a message, but so too does shooting them, or punching them in the face. One basic rule of law principle is that it&#039;s not OK to commit battery on people because you disagree with their politics -- and this is true whether we are talking about shooting them, punching them, or indeed relatively minor batteries such as hitting them with a pie, a rotten tomato, or an egg.  

Frankly, if the folks commenting here are representative of the modern left, well you seem like a bunch of thugs and bullies, totally uninterested in respecting the rights of people with whom you disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not a fan of the <span class="caps">BNP</span>, and I&#8217;d certainly vote against a similar party here in the US.</p>

	<p>But I have to say that this discussion has not been impressive.  Egging somebody may indeed send a message, but so too does shooting them, or punching them in the face. One basic rule of law principle is that it&#8217;s not OK to commit battery on people because you disagree with their politics&#8212;and this is true whether we are talking about shooting them, punching them, or indeed relatively minor batteries such as hitting them with a pie, a rotten tomato, or an egg.</p>

	<p>Frankly, if the folks commenting here are representative of the modern left, well you seem like a bunch of thugs and bullies, totally uninterested in respecting the rights of people with whom you disagree.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: magistra</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279289</link>
		<dc:creator>magistra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279289</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If education is poor, language training suffers and working-class Britons can’t compete in Europe.&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s not purely about language, it&#039;s also about geographical mobility or the lack of it. There are some working class communities where moving away from one&#039;s town/city (or either  from a particular area of one city) is seen as an unfamiliar or even dangerous thing to do, taking you away from the support network of your friends and family. (That&#039;s one thing stopping some working-class children going to university). If  that kind of community safety-net is vital to you (and there may be reasons why it is), then free movement of labour within the EU means that &#039;they&#039; can come to your city and take jobs there, but you can&#039;t imagine going to theirs. 

Whereas I think more middle-class people, even if they would have no intention of going to work elsewhere in the EU, would know people who had done so, so it&#039;s more obviously a two-way street. I don&#039;t know whether working class cultures with more of a tradition of expecting to go &#039;away&#039; to get work are as hostile to immigrants. My impression is that overall Scotland is less anti-EU immigrants than England, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If education is poor, language training suffers and working-class Britons can&#8217;t compete in Europe.</i></p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not purely about language, it&#8217;s also about geographical mobility or the lack of it. There are some working class communities where moving away from one&#8217;s town/city (or either  from a particular area of one city) is seen as an unfamiliar or even dangerous thing to do, taking you away from the support network of your friends and family. (That&#8217;s one thing stopping some working-class children going to university). If  that kind of community safety-net is vital to you (and there may be reasons why it is), then free movement of labour within the EU means that &#8216;they&#8217; can come to your city and take jobs there, but you can&#8217;t imagine going to theirs.</p>

	<p>Whereas I think more middle-class people, even if they would have no intention of going to work elsewhere in the EU, would know people who had done so, so it&#8217;s more obviously a two-way street. I don&#8217;t know whether working class cultures with more of a tradition of expecting to go &#8216;away&#8217; to get work are as hostile to immigrants. My impression is that overall Scotland is less anti-EU immigrants than England, for example.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279276</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279276</guid>
		<description>engels, I don&#039;t think they should or shouldn&#039;t want to compete in europe. I&#039;m just referencing one of the  (many) concerns that ordinary Britons have about closer ties with Europe. If Labour doesn&#039;t address these concerns then someone else, e.g. UKIP, will.

Addressing these concerns doesn&#039;t have to mean agreeing with them. But clearly whatever Labour&#039;s policy on &quot;selling&quot; europe and current immigration policy is, it isn&#039;t working, and now Britain is sending some fascists to Europe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>engels, I don&#8217;t think they should or shouldn&#8217;t want to compete in europe. I&#8217;m just referencing one of the  (many) concerns that ordinary Britons have about closer ties with Europe. If Labour doesn&#8217;t address these concerns then someone else, e.g. <span class="caps">UKIP</span>, will.</p>

	<p>Addressing these concerns doesn&#8217;t have to mean agreeing with them. But clearly whatever Labour&#8217;s policy on &#8220;selling&#8221; europe and current immigration policy is, it isn&#8217;t working, and now Britain is sending some fascists to Europe.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279261</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279261</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If education is poor, language training suffers and working-class Britons can’t compete in Europe.&lt;/i&gt;

And what makes you think they either want to or should want to  &#039;compete in Europe&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If education is poor, language training suffers and working-class Britons can&#8217;t compete in Europe.</i></p>

	<p>And what makes you think they either want to or should want to  &#8216;compete in Europe&#8217;?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/12/the-bnp-and-the-egging-laffer-curve/comment-page-3/#comment-279258</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11547#comment-279258</guid>
		<description>(And naturally no CT thread on fascism is ever complete without somebody pointing out that &lt;i&gt;in fact Nazism &lt;/i&gt;means&lt;i&gt; National&lt;/i&gt; Soc1alism&lt;i&gt;!!!&lt;/i&gt; I was worried that this one would be an aberration until I got to comment 71 but am now confident that the inner harmony of the cosmic order has been maintained.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(And naturally no CT thread on fascism is ever complete without somebody pointing out that <i>in fact Nazism </i>means<i> National</i> Soc1alism<i><img src="!" alt="" border="0" /></i> I was worried that this one would be an aberration until I got to comment 71 but am now confident that the inner harmony of the cosmic order has been maintained.)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

