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	<title>Comments on: Utopophobia and Other Freedom Beefs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280542</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280542</guid>
		<description>Just to say that I found this post really excellent. It induced exactly the kind of minor epiphanies you described. Thanks a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just to say that I found this post really excellent. It induced exactly the kind of minor epiphanies you described. Thanks a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280395</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280395</guid>
		<description>Pre-Darwinian evolution: Lamark, Goethe, Burke (society is organic), Hegel, Spencer -- to name a few. 

Biologists today often talk about variation in order to avoid the implication of &quot;progress&quot; in evolution. 

As for progress. There is progress and there is regress. These are relative terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Pre-Darwinian evolution: Lamark, Goethe, Burke (society is organic), Hegel, Spencer&#8212;to name a few.</p>

	<p>Biologists today often talk about variation in order to avoid the implication of &#8220;progress&#8221; in evolution.</p>

	<p>As for progress. There is progress and there is regress. These are relative terms.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick S. O'Donnell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280226</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick S. O'Donnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280226</guid>
		<description>Jock, 

The dialogue is going nowhere, so suffice to say from my end that you&#039;re absolutely wrong to claim that I, or Mishal and Sela, stereotype and trivialize Arab Sunnis in some &quot;orientalist&quot; manner. Your ignorance in this regard is glaring and clearly reflects a lack of basic acquaintance with the relevant literature. Having been trained in Religious Studies (with Islam one of my areas of focus) as well as taught &quot;comparative religions&quot; for many years (i.e., having been a student of religions--and specifically Islam--for over three decades now), this is the very first time anyone has ever accused me of having &quot;refused to accept the agency of religion in the Arab world.&quot; For the record, I&#039;m not a Marxist when it comes to religion even if there was more than a little truth in some of the things Marx himself had to say about religions (the late Ninian Smart [brother of J.J.C.--&quot;Jack&quot;--Smart] and the contemporary philosopher John Cottingham comes closest to articulating what I think about such things). I suppose my putative denial of such agency is why editors have solicited articles from me on, for example, constitutionalism, democracy and civil society in the Islamic world, and why I&#039;ve been asked to write on the likes of Hasan al-Banna (founder of the Muslim Brotherhood), Sufis (Islamic mystics) and Islamic philosophers for edited volumes. Where you are wise in such matters they, alas, judged poorly. 

Please feel free to pass along copies of your published work in this field and let me know of courses you teach on these topics as further evidence of the considerable knowledge and expertise you clearly possess on matters about which you&#039;ve expressed yourself with such confidence here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jock,</p>

	<p>The dialogue is going nowhere, so suffice to say from my end that you&#8217;re absolutely wrong to claim that I, or Mishal and Sela, stereotype and trivialize Arab Sunnis in some &#8220;orientalist&#8221; manner. Your ignorance in this regard is glaring and clearly reflects a lack of basic acquaintance with the relevant literature. Having been trained in Religious Studies (with Islam one of my areas of focus) as well as taught &#8220;comparative religions&#8221; for many years (i.e., having been a student of religions&#8212;and specifically Islam&#8212;for over three decades now), this is the very first time anyone has ever accused me of having &#8220;refused to accept the agency of religion in the Arab world.&#8221; For the record, I&#8217;m not a Marxist when it comes to religion even if there was more than a little truth in some of the things Marx himself had to say about religions (the late Ninian Smart [brother of J.J.C.&#8212;&#8221;Jack&#8221;&#8212;Smart] and the contemporary philosopher John Cottingham comes closest to articulating what I think about such things). I suppose my putative denial of such agency is why editors have solicited articles from me on, for example, constitutionalism, democracy and civil society in the Islamic world, and why I&#8217;ve been asked to write on the likes of Hasan al-Banna (founder of the Muslim Brotherhood), Sufis (Islamic mystics) and Islamic philosophers for edited volumes. Where you are wise in such matters they, alas, judged poorly.</p>

	<p>Please feel free to pass along copies of your published work in this field and let me know of courses you teach on these topics as further evidence of the considerable knowledge and expertise you clearly possess on matters about which you&#8217;ve expressed yourself with such confidence here.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280216</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280216</guid>
		<description>Phil, I can see where you&#039;re coming from but I think you&#039;re reducing the &#039;-est&#039; a tad too much. Darwin clearly talks about competition and those organisms that won out (were most numerous) at some point in time having an edge over others. He also speaks with care about the &#039;perfection&#039; of some features (like the eyes). He gives examples of how a retreat into some previous climatal environment wouldn&#039;t lead to the reappearance of characters that dominated in the previous time. All of this is not coincidental following his theory and, in fact, the deconsecacration you rightly mentioned requires this drive towards ever more competitive organisms (and an implciit comparison over times that you seem to deny). On his view - nothing can be perfect because everything will always modify through descent to something &#039;perfecter&#039; still.

Anyway, a pity you&#039;re not a biologist - but a pleasure to exchange views nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Phil, I can see where you&#8217;re coming from but I think you&#8217;re reducing the &#8216;-est&#8217; a tad too much. Darwin clearly talks about competition and those organisms that won out (were most numerous) at some point in time having an edge over others. He also speaks with care about the &#8216;perfection&#8217; of some features (like the eyes). He gives examples of how a retreat into some previous climatal environment wouldn&#8217;t lead to the reappearance of characters that dominated in the previous time. All of this is not coincidental following his theory and, in fact, the deconsecacration you rightly mentioned requires this drive towards ever more competitive organisms (and an implciit comparison over times that you seem to deny). On his view &#8211; nothing can be perfect because everything will always modify through descent to something &#8216;perfecter&#8217; still.</p>

	<p>Anyway, a pity you&#8217;re not a biologist &#8211; but a pleasure to exchange views nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: Jock Bowden</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280203</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock Bowden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280203</guid>
		<description>Patrick


&lt;i&gt;As more than a few of the relevant analysts and experts have noted in some detail&lt;/i&gt;

How many is a &quot;few&quot; and what criteria do you use to decide which of these alleged &quot;analysts&quot; are &#039;relevant&#039; or not?



&lt;i&gt;for all intents and purposes, Hamas has in many respects ignored and even regretted the wording of its Charter. &lt;/i&gt;

If there are &quot;many respects&quot; how about sharing one or two with us? Perhaps Hamas&#039; idea of &quot;regret&quot; differs from the rest of humanity, who would expect the Charter to be officially torn up and many apologies for both its evil intent and hysterical historical howlers, that make The Protocols look like a Disney cartoon.



&lt;i&gt;It’s clear you have not read any of the well-known and representative studies of Hamas: by Tamimi, and by Mishal and Sela, for instance. &lt;/i&gt;

From what I have posted here, how do you infer what I have read? But I will say my choices in reading rarely take into account whether the book is &quot;well-known&quot; and by whom? What could you possibly mean by a &quot;representative study of Hamas&quot;?

Call me old-fashioned, but I simply do not rate academics in general who write on contemporary politics.

What I &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; pay careful attention are the acts and pronouncements of the groups themselves. And allow me to tell you, you are wrong. Both sharia and the caliphate rate very highly in the cognitive spaces of the Hamastanian.


&lt;i&gt;As Mishal and Sela note, “Hamas’s victory can be explained by social and economic considerations of the Palestinian electorate rather than ideological identification with the Islamic movement’s political agenda.”&lt;/i&gt;

As you clearly rate the analyses of academics, I am afraid to inform you that this is common garden variety &#039;orientalist&#039; stereotyping and trivialising of Sunni Arabs. Like much of the western marxist left, it simply refuses to respect the agency of religion in the Arab world, instead seeing Islam as an expression of false consciousness; a reaction against the alleged centuries-old imperialist injustices and crimes of Europe and its racist white christian imperialists.


&lt;i&gt;And: “Hamas is well aware that it had not been elected on the basis of its Islamic Charter&lt;/i&gt;

Once more, as I said above, this is irrelevant to the thread topic of Utopia. And as I said above, you do not have access to the events, speeches, interviews, rallies, writings. etc. of that election.

As this post is getting a bit long, I shall return to the remainder later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Patrick</p>


	<p><i>As more than a few of the relevant analysts and experts have noted in some detail</i></p>

	<p>How many is a &#8220;few&#8221; and what criteria do you use to decide which of these alleged &#8220;analysts&#8221; are &#8216;relevant&#8217; or not?</p>



	<p><i>for all intents and purposes, Hamas has in many respects ignored and even regretted the wording of its Charter. </i></p>

	<p>If there are &#8220;many respects&#8221; how about sharing one or two with us? Perhaps Hamas&#8217; idea of &#8220;regret&#8221; differs from the rest of humanity, who would expect the Charter to be officially torn up and many apologies for both its evil intent and hysterical historical howlers, that make The Protocols look like a Disney cartoon.</p>



	<p><i>It&#8217;s clear you have not read any of the well-known and representative studies of Hamas: by Tamimi, and by Mishal and Sela, for instance. </i></p>

	<p>From what I have posted here, how do you infer what I have read? But I will say my choices in reading rarely take into account whether the book is &#8220;well-known&#8221; and by whom? What could you possibly mean by a &#8220;representative study of Hamas&#8221;?</p>

	<p>Call me old-fashioned, but I simply do not rate academics in general who write on contemporary politics.</p>

	<p>What I <i>do</i> pay careful attention are the acts and pronouncements of the groups themselves. And allow me to tell you, you are wrong. Both sharia and the caliphate rate very highly in the cognitive spaces of the Hamastanian.</p>


	<p><i>As Mishal and Sela note, &#8220;Hamas&#8217;s victory can be explained by social and economic considerations of the Palestinian electorate rather than ideological identification with the Islamic movement&#8217;s political agenda.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>As you clearly rate the analyses of academics, I am afraid to inform you that this is common garden variety &#8216;orientalist&#8217; stereotyping and trivialising of Sunni Arabs. Like much of the western marxist left, it simply refuses to respect the agency of religion in the Arab world, instead seeing Islam as an expression of false consciousness; a reaction against the alleged centuries-old imperialist injustices and crimes of Europe and its racist white christian imperialists.</p>


	<p><i>And: &#8220;Hamas is well aware that it had not been elected on the basis of its Islamic Charter</i></p>

	<p>Once more, as I said above, this is irrelevant to the thread topic of Utopia. And as I said above, you do not have access to the events, speeches, interviews, rallies, writings. etc. of that election.</p>

	<p>As this post is getting a bit long, I shall return to the remainder later.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280193</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280193</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I believe there is always some ‘-est’ notion implicit in Darwin&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t - to me natural selection is all about getting the edge on the next population along (or, to some extent, the next individual along) within a given ecological niche. (I&#039;m not a biologist, btw.) Roll forward a few thousand years and what were previously adaptive features may have become maladaptive, and vice versa. The only &#039;best&#039; is &#039;best fit to a particular niche&#039;, and that&#039;s only really another way of saying &#039;better than the others around at the time&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I believe there is always some &#8216;-est&#8217; notion implicit in Darwin</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t &#8211; to me natural selection is all about getting the edge on the next population along (or, to some extent, the next individual along) within a given ecological niche. (I&#8217;m not a biologist, btw.) Roll forward a few thousand years and what were previously adaptive features may have become maladaptive, and vice versa. The only &#8216;best&#8217; is &#8216;best fit to a particular niche&#8217;, and that&#8217;s only really another way of saying &#8216;better than the others around at the time&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280176</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280176</guid>
		<description>Phil, point taken. Correct. I just objected to harold&#039;s view that pre-Darwin the consensus was on any sort of dynamism. But, on my own account (not Darwin&#039;s), I think we can make sense of the Darwinian model and optimism without falling into utopianism or alfa/omega type thinking and I believe there is always some &#039;-est&#039; notion implicit in Darwin (and no - I don&#039;t think that fittest is synonimous with &#039;best&#039;) - so in this limited sense it is a model of progression towards being more competitive, better adapted and directionality. But all of the latter is me, not Darwin, &amp; it&#039;s very confused but that doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s going nowhere, I hope.

(are you a biologist? can you answer my question in 64? really, you would be a life-saver!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Phil, point taken. Correct. I just objected to harold&#8217;s view that pre-Darwin the consensus was on any sort of dynamism. But, on my own account (not Darwin&#8217;s), I think we can make sense of the Darwinian model and optimism without falling into utopianism or alfa/omega type thinking and I believe there is always some &#8216;-est&#8217; notion implicit in Darwin (and no &#8211; I don&#8217;t think that fittest is synonimous with &#8216;best&#8217;) &#8211; so in this limited sense it is a model of progression towards being more competitive, better adapted and directionality. But all of the latter is me, not Darwin, &#038; it&#8217;s very confused but that doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s going nowhere, I hope.</p>

	<p>(are you a biologist? can you answer my question in 64? really, you would be a life-saver!)</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280173</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280173</guid>
		<description>I think the point Belle and I are making is that the idea of evolution predated Darwin, &amp; was explicitly an idea of progress. The idea was very much one of the progressive evolution - unfolding - of a potential for higher (or greater, or wiser, etc) being which had been implicit in Life from the outset; a process which culminated in the human race, of course. Darwin didn&#039;t just deny Creation, he deconsecrated evolution. Hence Darwinians getting a bit jumpy when people talk about evolution (as we now use the term) having any kind of direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the point Belle and I are making is that the idea of evolution predated Darwin, &#038; was explicitly an idea of progress. The idea was very much one of the progressive evolution &#8211; unfolding &#8211; of a potential for higher (or greater, or wiser, etc) being which had been implicit in Life from the outset; a process which culminated in the human race, of course. Darwin didn&#8217;t just deny Creation, he deconsecrated evolution. Hence Darwinians getting a bit jumpy when people talk about evolution (as we now use the term) having any kind of direction.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280159</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280159</guid>
		<description>Phil, he was quite explicit in that modification was going irreversibly in one direction. I did not say higher or lower, I just reacted to harold; there is no way that one can read Darwin as saying that regression is possible (reversion to &#039;some&#039; older characters maybe but that&#039;s another thing alltogether). What it does imply is that one cannot be at a stand-still, things cannot but move in nature, however imperceptibly, and this is indeed counter to utopian thinking, imho.

belle, surely there were precursors but pre-Darwin there was no consensus on any evolution, &amp; as far as Hegel, it was a dynamic yes, but within a context of movement to something Ultimate; and that&#039;s exactly what Darwinian evolution (if Phil allows me to use the anachronism) is not, it moves, but not to something ultimate, or even something predictable.

(talking of Darwin will attract biologists - can somebody help me whether one of Darwins non-essential secondary hypothesis was ever tested: the supposed fact that organisms under duress were more apt to create offspring that presented significant modifications? No tricks, just want to know and not being a biologist an answer here could save me a lot of time)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Phil, he was quite explicit in that modification was going irreversibly in one direction. I did not say higher or lower, I just reacted to harold; there is no way that one can read Darwin as saying that regression is possible (reversion to &#8216;some&#8217; older characters maybe but that&#8217;s another thing alltogether). What it does imply is that one cannot be at a stand-still, things cannot but move in nature, however imperceptibly, and this is indeed counter to utopian thinking, imho.</p>

	<p>belle, surely there were precursors but pre-Darwin there was no consensus on any evolution, &#038; as far as Hegel, it was a dynamic yes, but within a context of movement to something Ultimate; and that&#8217;s exactly what Darwinian evolution (if Phil allows me to use the anachronism) is not, it moves, but not to something ultimate, or even something predictable.</p>

	<p>(talking of Darwin will attract biologists &#8211; can somebody help me whether one of Darwins non-essential secondary hypothesis was ever tested: the supposed fact that organisms under duress were more apt to create offspring that presented significant modifications? No tricks, just want to know and not being a biologist an answer here could save me a lot of time)</p>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280149</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280149</guid>
		<description>Utopian programs are like treason. For if they prosper, conservatives don&#039;t dare dismiss them as &quot;utopian&quot;. 

(unless they&#039;ve first arranged for them to stop prospering)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Utopian programs are like treason. For if they prosper, conservatives don&#8217;t dare dismiss them as &#8220;utopian&#8221;.</p>

	<p>(unless they&#8217;ve first arranged for them to stop prospering)</p>
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		<title>By: belle le triste</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280148</link>
		<dc:creator>belle le triste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280148</guid>
		<description>pre-darwin evolutionary theory = hegel (for example)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>pre-darwin evolutionary theory = hegel (for example)?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280145</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280145</guid>
		<description>Darwin most definitely didn&#039;t believe, let alone demonstrate, that evolution &quot;always proceeded in a single direction&quot;. Darwin didn&#039;t like the term &#039;evolution&#039; - which literally means &#039;unfolding&#039; &amp; implies progress from lower to higher forms - and avoided using it, for exactly that reason; what he wrote about was descent with modification through natural selection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Darwin most definitely didn&#8217;t believe, let alone demonstrate, that evolution &#8220;always proceeded in a single direction&#8221;. Darwin didn&#8217;t like the term &#8216;evolution&#8217; &#8211; which literally means &#8216;unfolding&#8217; &#038; implies progress from lower to higher forms &#8211; and avoided using it, for exactly that reason; what he wrote about was descent with modification through natural selection.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280139</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280139</guid>
		<description>Harold, I would have thought that in pre-Darwin days people did not think of evolution. And I am confident that Darwin not only thought but demonstrated that evolution always proceeded in a single direction. That still leaves the choice between a positive and a negative direction for sure, but you&#039;ll be hard pressed to find Darwinian quotes on the latter direction. Anyway, don&#039;t known who brought Providence into this discussion but, providentially, it is orthogonal to this topic of Utopianism (both utopianists &amp; non-utopianists going in for it, &amp; not all utopians going in for it). 

As this is a thread dedicated to the recalibration of existing words; what&#039;s wrong with it anyway? After all, if you&#039;re optimistic that humanism will prevail because it&#039;s the best idea out there then you don&#039;t need to believe in Providence to be reasonably convinced that things will turn out in a way that can be labeled, after the facts, as having been very providential.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harold, I would have thought that in pre-Darwin days people did not think of evolution. And I am confident that Darwin not only thought but demonstrated that evolution always proceeded in a single direction. That still leaves the choice between a positive and a negative direction for sure, but you&#8217;ll be hard pressed to find Darwinian quotes on the latter direction. Anyway, don&#8217;t known who brought Providence into this discussion but, providentially, it is orthogonal to this topic of Utopianism (both utopianists &#038; non-utopianists going in for it, &#038; not all utopians going in for it).</p>

	<p>As this is a thread dedicated to the recalibration of existing words; what&#8217;s wrong with it anyway? After all, if you&#8217;re optimistic that humanism will prevail because it&#8217;s the best idea out there then you don&#8217;t need to believe in Providence to be reasonably convinced that things will turn out in a way that can be labeled, after the facts, as having been very providential.</p>
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		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280130</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280130</guid>
		<description>Belief that the (Flying-Spaghetti?) Market will always provide is another kind of belief in Providence -- dating from the (pre-Darwnian) time when people thought evolution always proceeded in a positive direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Belief that the (Flying-Spaghetti?) Market will always provide is another kind of belief in Providence&#8212;dating from the (pre-Darwnian) time when people thought evolution always proceeded in a positive direction.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/18/utopophobia-and-other-freedom-beefs/comment-page-2/#comment-280086</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11606#comment-280086</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;once these Utopian enthusiasms leave the pages of novels, films, etc., the meaning of Utopia becomes Dystopia&lt;/i&gt;

That really is remarkably trite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>once these Utopian enthusiasms leave the pages of novels, films, etc., the meaning of Utopia becomes Dystopia</i></p>

	<p>That really is remarkably trite.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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