Let’s not talk about what it did to Algerians, both right then as they were being tortured (and some where torturing) and later. Because what really matters is the poor hurt guilty sensitive psyche of those lovely French people.

Magistra: P
Bert: I don’t believe P.
Me: Why don’t you believe P, Bert?
Bert: I don’t mean any offence, but I am not going to respond to that question seriously until you demonstrate your seriousness by writing something at greater length. And I don’t think you have read the entire thread.
Me: Ummm, okay. Here are some of my general thoughts. So why don’t you believe that P?
Bert: I knew a Rhodes Scholar in the nineties who was very anti-British.
Me: That’s interesting. But why don’t you believe that P?
Bert: I didn’t think it was a serious question. Er, essentialism, ‘we’ are morally pristine, ‘they’ are barbarians.
Me: Ummm, nobody said anything resembling that. So you’re not going to answer my question then. Fine.
Bert: That last comment was pure Aunt Sally.

Engels, comment #30 is pure Aunt Sally.
Over the past eight years or so, more than once American friends and acquaintances have told me they’re worried about european anti-americanism. Don’t worry, I say. Almost all of it is anti-Bush. No doubt you’re keen to tell me I’m wrong about that too.

Right, as opposed to the well-established unambiguous fact of “specifically US cultural view of criminals”.

To do that you’d need to show (at least) not just that there is popular support for the death penalty in the UK (/= Europe) but that it is of a similar level in Europe and the US.

No, I don’t think so. My claim is that European elites (unlike parts of the US elite/media) deliberately avoid whipping up a mob mentality. Why that is – you’re right, I can’t explain. But if it is true, naturally popular support for torture and capital punishment should be lower in Europe.

Now, perhaps what I’m saying is roughly an equivalent of “specifically US cultural view”, but I like my formulation better; “specific cultural view” is a bit too enigmatic.

You’re right, you don’t know. In fact, most of what you have written is pure speculation (and very vague—what do you mean by your (verbless) assertion ‘less competition there [among the ruling class in Europe]’???) Btw the poll you link to doesn’t confirm Bert’s view at all. To do that you’d need to show (at least) not just that there is popular support for the death penalty in the UK (/= Europe) but that it is of a similar level in Europe and the US.

Katherine: good point.

Bert: Magistra made a claim that seemed to me (and I’d bet to most people here) intuitively plausible, in the light of well-known, atypical features of the US state (criminal justice, welfare) and political scene. You didn’t just say it was unproven but that you didn’t believe it. Given that, it’s seems quite in order to ask you to give your reasons for rejecting it. But you seem to have resolved not to give them on principle and are determined to try to keep throwing the ball back in the other court, as it were. Fine, whatever. For the record, nobody claimed that Europeans are ‘morally pristine’ or that the features of contemporay American society/culture under discussion are ‘inherent’ or historically immutable—that’s Worzel Gummidge stuff.

And is it possible that the same phenomenon affects the attitudes towards prison and prisoners: it’s easy to whip up hatred, but the European elites typically refrain from doing it, for some reason. I don’t know, but perhaps it’s because European elites are more stable, less competition there; they can afford to retain some dignity.

I am not suggesting that Europeans are whiter than white in contrast to the US, there’s been horrible brutality by Europeans in the recent past. But if you’re going to deny that there is a difference between the current attitudes towards prison and prisoners in the US and elsewhere in the west, you’re pretty unconvincing. If you think that general US view has no effect on why there was less concern about torturing prisoners, what makes you think that? (FWIW, I don’t think that racism is the key: the US seems to me no more racist overall than the UK and possibly less so, although racist prejudices express themselves in different ways in the two countries).

And if you want to say that it is the WTC attacks that has made the difference in the US and compare it to the supposed effect of the IRA pub bombings, what about the London tube bombings? The poll cited earlier on international views of torture was taken in 2006, just over a year after 52 people had been killed by terrorists. (As for the UK poll on the death penalty, there’s an interesting contrast, with the young being considerably less enthusiatic about the death penalty than those old enough to remember its use).

I don’t deny Bush’s populist approach, but I don’t think it would have succeeded if it hadn’t latched onto some particular US cultural traits. I don’t think such views are as prevalent in Europe at the moment, but although I hope that the British public will never become pro-torture I am not certain of that.

As for your question, it didn’t strike me as serious the first time you put it.
Who’s made the case that there is something about America and Americans – something inherent that applies across historical comparisons – that makes them into morally compromised torturers while we other Westerners remain morally pristine.
There’s been two suggestions in this thread:
1. Americans lock people up more than they should.
2. Americans are racist.
Let’s just say that both suggestions need work.

And that’s it for me tonight. I’ll check back after work tomorrow.