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	<title>Comments on: Digital Barbarism: Afterthoughts</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Matt Austern</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280475</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Austern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280475</guid>
		<description>I was actually aware that titles aren&#039;t copyrightable, and I thought about explaining why I thought this was fair criticism despite that fact. Maybe I should.

One reason is the one John Holbo brought up: in practice people who have a maximalist view of copyright terms tend to have a maximalist view of other copyright issues, and in fact the logic does incline that way. The argument that Helprin gives for thinking that his words should still be legally controlled by his distant 34th  century descendants doesn&#039;t have any obvious limits on the size of an excerpt.

There&#039;s also a more subtle point: alleged copyright infringements get decided in court, on a case by case basis. Even if you believe you&#039;re doing something that a court would eventually rule to be fair use, you probably won&#039;t want to take the chance when there&#039;s a credible threat of a lawsuit -- not unless you have some very strong and absolutely clear reason that the suit couldn&#039;t possibly succeed, something on the order of &quot;Are you insane? Of course it isn&#039;t copyrighted; it&#039;s from the 16th century.&quot; Maybe a title isn&#039;t copyrightable, but a large and aggressive estate, with lots of money to pay lawyers, could undoubtedly find some argument that isn&#039;t prima facie absurd -- arguing that the title suggests it to be a derived work, for example.

It&#039;s not at all clear to me, for example, that there&#039;s any genuine basis in the text of the law for things like &quot;character copyright&quot;, or for the idea that you need to ask permission to quote even a single line of a song, or for the &quot;hot news doctrine&quot;, but in practice those things restrict what writers and publishers do.  If we did have a 400 year old estate guarding precious and lucrative works, I think they&#039;d have every incentive to be aggressive in pushing the boundaries of legal doctrines and I think they&#039;d have a large enough legal department, with enough institutional experience, to make some pretty credible threats. In a world like that, I&#039;d probably stay far away from the title of any work whose copyright was owned by such an estate.

Seriously, &quot;perpetual&quot; is just a dumb idea, and I suspect that people who advocate for it just haven&#039;t thought through the implications of copyright that lasts for centuries or longer. I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve been unfair in my example, and I haven&#039;t chosen the most extreme case that I could have, but already we&#039;re well beyond the time that most of us can name any of our ancestors, well beyond the lifetime of legal systems, or governments, or even countries. Haven&#039;t these people spent a minute trying to imagine what five hundred years is like?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was actually aware that titles aren&#8217;t copyrightable, and I thought about explaining why I thought this was fair criticism despite that fact. Maybe I should.</p>

	<p>One reason is the one John Holbo brought up: in practice people who have a maximalist view of copyright terms tend to have a maximalist view of other copyright issues, and in fact the logic does incline that way. The argument that Helprin gives for thinking that his words should still be legally controlled by his distant 34th  century descendants doesn&#8217;t have any obvious limits on the size of an excerpt.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s also a more subtle point: alleged copyright infringements get decided in court, on a case by case basis. Even if you believe you&#8217;re doing something that a court would eventually rule to be fair use, you probably won&#8217;t want to take the chance when there&#8217;s a credible threat of a lawsuit&#8212;not unless you have some very strong and absolutely clear reason that the suit couldn&#8217;t possibly succeed, something on the order of &#8220;Are you insane? Of course it isn&#8217;t copyrighted; it&#8217;s from the 16th century.&#8221; Maybe a title isn&#8217;t copyrightable, but a large and aggressive estate, with lots of money to pay lawyers, could undoubtedly find some argument that isn&#8217;t prima facie absurd&#8212;arguing that the title suggests it to be a derived work, for example.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not at all clear to me, for example, that there&#8217;s any genuine basis in the text of the law for things like &#8220;character copyright&#8221;, or for the idea that you need to ask permission to quote even a single line of a song, or for the &#8220;hot news doctrine&#8221;, but in practice those things restrict what writers and publishers do.  If we did have a 400 year old estate guarding precious and lucrative works, I think they&#8217;d have every incentive to be aggressive in pushing the boundaries of legal doctrines and I think they&#8217;d have a large enough legal department, with enough institutional experience, to make some pretty credible threats. In a world like that, I&#8217;d probably stay far away from the title of any work whose copyright was owned by such an estate.</p>

	<p>Seriously, &#8220;perpetual&#8221; is just a dumb idea, and I suspect that people who advocate for it just haven&#8217;t thought through the implications of copyright that lasts for centuries or longer. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve been unfair in my example, and I haven&#8217;t chosen the most extreme case that I could have, but already we&#8217;re well beyond the time that most of us can name any of our ancestors, well beyond the lifetime of legal systems, or governments, or even countries. Haven&#8217;t these people spent a minute trying to imagine what five hundred years is like?</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280438</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280438</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t hold out much hope that we’ll get much improvement on the stupid system we’ve got&lt;/i&gt;

This seems to me at least as damaging a concession as Douthat&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I don&#8217;t hold out much hope that we&#8217;ll get much improvement on the stupid system we&#8217;ve got</i></p>

	<p>This seems to me at least as damaging a concession as Douthat&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280436</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280436</guid>
		<description>I suppose Disney, under Halperin&#039;s plan, owes big bucks to the descendents of John Smith and the Brother&#039;s Grimm. But in turn do the Bros. G and John Smith owe Old Marie Mueller&#039;s descendents and Powhattan&#039;s? 
Halperin&#039;s suggestion is sorta like making IP into Kurt Vonnegut&#039;s Ice-9 - it is a formula for freezing the world as it now stands. The death of intellectual life will surely follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suppose Disney, under Halperin&#8217;s plan, owes big bucks to the descendents of John Smith and the Brother&#8217;s Grimm. But in turn do the Bros. G and John Smith owe Old Marie Mueller&#8217;s descendents and Powhattan&#8217;s?<br />
Halperin&#8217;s suggestion is sorta like making IP into Kurt Vonnegut&#8217;s Ice-9 &#8211; it is a formula for freezing the world as it now stands. The death of intellectual life will surely follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Gordon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280385</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280385</guid>
		<description>From Jerome Tuccille, &lt;i&gt;It Usually Begins With Ayn Rand&lt;/i&gt;:

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.01/msg00027.html&quot;&gt;
&quot;What the hell is a Galambosian?&quot;

There was this individual, it seems, named Joseph Andrew Galambos who evolved a theory of &quot;primary property rights&quot;. Apparently, as soon as someone came up with a new idea - whether an invention or an original philosophical concept - the prototype belonged irrevocably to him and was to be regarded forevermore as his primary property. Somewhere along the line Galambos picked up the notion that Thomas Paine had invented the word &quot;liberty,&quot; whereupon he established the Thomas Paine Royalty Fund, and every time he gave a lecture and used the word &quot;liberty&quot; he dropped a nickel into his fund box as a royalty payment to Tom. How he determined that a nickel was the proper measure of homage to Mr. Paine, I have no idea. Legend even had it that Galambos was still diligently searching for Thomas Paine&#039;s descendants so he could turn over moneys due their famous ancestor.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From Jerome Tuccille, <i>It Usually Begins With Ayn Rand</i>:</p>

	<p><blockquote cite="http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.01/msg00027.html"><br />
&#8220;What the hell is a Galambosian?&#8221;</blockquote></p>

	<p>There was this individual, it seems, named Joseph Andrew Galambos who evolved a theory of &#8220;primary property rights&#8221;. Apparently, as soon as someone came up with a new idea &#8211; whether an invention or an original philosophical concept &#8211; the prototype belonged irrevocably to him and was to be regarded forevermore as his primary property. Somewhere along the line Galambos picked up the notion that Thomas Paine had invented the word &#8220;liberty,&#8221; whereupon he established the Thomas Paine Royalty Fund, and every time he gave a lecture and used the word &#8220;liberty&#8221; he dropped a nickel into his fund box as a royalty payment to Tom. How he determined that a nickel was the proper measure of homage to Mr. Paine, I have no idea. Legend even had it that Galambos was still diligently searching for Thomas Paine&#8217;s descendants so he could turn over moneys due their famous ancestor.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280333</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280333</guid>
		<description>Stuart, it was a joke; that being said, what&#039;s regressive about a basic income? (I didn&#039;t say every soul had to pay as much royalties, rich people clearly should pay lots more royalties - because they are benefiting most from the splendid innovations carried out daily by just about anyone, in fact we should forget about consumption based royalties - we can have progressive taxation as there is no way of telling who is consuming precisely what of whom&#039;s inventions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Stuart, it was a joke; that being said, what&#8217;s regressive about a basic income? (I didn&#8217;t say every soul had to pay as much royalties, rich people clearly should pay lots more royalties &#8211; because they are benefiting most from the splendid innovations carried out daily by just about anyone, in fact we should forget about consumption based royalties &#8211; we can have progressive taxation as there is no way of telling who is consuming precisely what of whom&#8217;s inventions).</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280332</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280332</guid>
		<description>Why should this apply only to copyright? How about intellectual property in scientific laws? Does Helprin want to pay a fee to the Germans in Kirchoff&#039;s honour and to the Americans for Edison&#039;s sake whenever he turns on an electric light?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Why should this apply only to copyright? How about intellectual property in scientific laws? Does Helprin want to pay a fee to the Germans in Kirchoff&#8217;s honour and to the Americans for Edison&#8217;s sake whenever he turns on an electric light?</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280328</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280328</guid>
		<description>JoB of course unless you think rich people talk/write a whole lot more than poor people, it would be a very regressive way of raising a basic income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JoB of course unless you think rich people talk/write a whole lot more than poor people, it would be a very regressive way of raising a basic income.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280324</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280324</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And everyone could be entitled to a cut of the royalties, as a function of their degree of genetic relation.&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re onto something here! Drop the &#039;as a function of&#039; and everybody has a basic income. That will suffice to support increased creativity so we can drop the copyright alltogether.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And everyone could be entitled to a cut of the royalties, as a function of their degree of genetic relation.</i></p>

	<p>You&#8217;re onto something here! Drop the &#8216;as a function of&#8217; and everybody has a basic income. That will suffice to support increased creativity so we can drop the copyright alltogether.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Crowley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280317</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Crowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280317</guid>
		<description>I doubt very much that Congress imagined vast media conglomerates when considering copyright protection. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tec_music_downloading

Starving artists? not so much
Barbarism? you betcha</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I doubt very much that Congress imagined vast media conglomerates when considering copyright protection.</p>

	<p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tec_music_downloading" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tec_music_downloading</a></p>

	<p>Starving artists? not so much<br />
Barbarism? you betcha</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280314</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280314</guid>
		<description>I think this thread is hitting on the counter-argument I find most compelling, which is what would the world look like if infinite copyright were figured out and implemented by the Romans and maintained to this day?  The idea gets even sillier if you extend the argument to patents.  Interested in building anything?  You better pay for the rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think this thread is hitting on the counter-argument I find most compelling, which is what would the world look like if infinite copyright were figured out and implemented by the Romans and maintained to this day?  The idea gets even sillier if you extend the argument to patents.  Interested in building anything?  You better pay for the rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280313</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280313</guid>
		<description>John, EXACTLY.  The economic costs on society of restricting what people do continues to grow, because administering the penny jar quickly becomes unsustainable.  100+ year copyrights were dumb and unworkable back before the internet, and in modern times it&#039;s even worse!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, <span class="caps">EXACTLY</span>.  The economic costs on society of restricting what people do continues to grow, because administering the penny jar quickly becomes unsustainable.  100+ year copyrights were dumb and unworkable back before the internet, and in modern times it&#8217;s even worse!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: andthenyoufall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280312</link>
		<dc:creator>andthenyoufall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280312</guid>
		<description>Paging Sir Robert Filmer...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Paging Sir Robert Filmer&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280309</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280309</guid>
		<description>I still think the irony of the title point stands. By Helprin&#039;s logic, titles should be copyrightable. After all, he apparently has an argument that there wouldn&#039;t be any practical downside to encumbering creative works with private ownership forever more, and provision of public goods is just pernicious creeping collectivism. Titles are creative works. Why should titles be different? It&#039;s welcome money in the pockets of Shakespeare&#039;s descendants (whoever they may be) and no bother to anyone else. Which is, of course, absurd.

Hell, why not copyright every word in the language? Someone invented it, after all. The things don&#039;t just grow wild, like berries in the forest. Instead of a swear jar, everyone should have to walk around with a word jar, dropping pennies in that will be sent to everyone descended from the likeliest ethnic stock. Maybe the human genome project could give us all some genetic rating of likely distance from the people most likely to have come up with the roots of the words we are using in our words. And everyone could be entitled to a cut of the royalties, as a function of their degree of genetic relation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I still think the irony of the title point stands. By Helprin&#8217;s logic, titles should be copyrightable. After all, he apparently has an argument that there wouldn&#8217;t be any practical downside to encumbering creative works with private ownership forever more, and provision of public goods is just pernicious creeping collectivism. Titles are creative works. Why should titles be different? It&#8217;s welcome money in the pockets of Shakespeare&#8217;s descendants (whoever they may be) and no bother to anyone else. Which is, of course, absurd.</p>

	<p>Hell, why not copyright every word in the language? Someone invented it, after all. The things don&#8217;t just grow wild, like berries in the forest. Instead of a swear jar, everyone should have to walk around with a word jar, dropping pennies in that will be sent to everyone descended from the likeliest ethnic stock. Maybe the human genome project could give us all some genetic rating of likely distance from the people most likely to have come up with the roots of the words we are using in our words. And everyone could be entitled to a cut of the royalties, as a function of their degree of genetic relation.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280307</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280307</guid>
		<description>Titles can&#039;t be copyrighted - a rare piece of sense, considering that there are a finite number of words. P.G. Wodehouse once commented that having made some enquiries his hope now was to be listed in the &#039;Top 100 books named &quot;Summer Lightning&quot;&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Titles can&#8217;t be copyrighted &#8211; a rare piece of sense, considering that there are a finite number of words. P.G. Wodehouse once commented that having made some enquiries his hope now was to be listed in the &#8216;Top 100 books named &#8220;Summer Lightning&#8221;&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: The Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/24/digital-barbarism-afterthoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-280306</link>
		<dc:creator>The Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11727#comment-280306</guid>
		<description>Oddly enough, Matt, titles can&#039;t be copyrighted. Now, if trademarks had existed in the Bard&#039;s time, Helprin would perhaps be short on titles. I am starting to suspect that Helprin, sadly, is probably one of those people who advocates outlawing his own conduct. I wonder why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oddly enough, Matt, titles can&#8217;t be copyrighted. Now, if trademarks had existed in the Bard&#8217;s time, Helprin would perhaps be short on titles. I am starting to suspect that Helprin, sadly, is probably one of those people who advocates outlawing his own conduct. I wonder why?</p>
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