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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s not absurd to desire the impossible</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel M. Laenker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281340</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel M. Laenker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281340</guid>
		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, I believe it&#039;s absurd to want better than life itself, perhaps not in the sense that organic chemistry defines &quot;life&quot;, but insofar as &quot;life&quot; is one&#039;s &lt;i&gt;subjective existence,&lt;/i&gt; anything you experience becomes part of your life.

&lt;i&gt;You cannot ever be free of yourself.&lt;/i&gt; Any experience, even experiences that transcend all prior experience, cannot transcend the sum total of your experiences in that they exist within your experience. And instant coffee will not give that freedom to you, even the unlikeliest transcendental or transhuman instant coffee ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, I believe it&#8217;s absurd to want better than life itself, perhaps not in the sense that organic chemistry defines &#8220;life&#8221;, but insofar as &#8220;life&#8221; is one&#8217;s <i>subjective existence,</i> anything you experience becomes part of your life.</p>

	<p><i>You cannot ever be free of yourself.</i> Any experience, even experiences that transcend all prior experience, cannot transcend the sum total of your experiences in that they exist within your experience. And instant coffee will not give that freedom to you, even the unlikeliest transcendental or transhuman instant coffee ever.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281169</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281169</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the coffee example is on-point. A person could have a really shit life with no significant prospects for improvement, and yet have &lt;i&gt;really good coffee&lt;/i&gt; on hand. That person would want the most out of her life (which, as it turns out, won&#039;t amount to much), and yet could (and should) expect more from her coffee.

Alternatively, maybe that person just likes coffee more than anything else in life. (I think I&#039;ve known one or two.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think the coffee example is on-point. A person could have a really shit life with no significant prospects for improvement, and yet have <i>really good coffee</i> on hand. That person would want the most out of her life (which, as it turns out, won&#8217;t amount to much), and yet could (and should) expect more from her coffee.</p>

	<p>Alternatively, maybe that person just likes coffee more than anything else in life. (I think I&#8217;ve known one or two.)</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281133</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281133</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...not so fun when those wishes are crushed...&lt;/i&gt;

Don&#039;t worry - it&#039;s not so fun when they come true either! It&#039;s all about the process, not the event.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;not so fun when those wishes are crushed&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t worry &#8211; it&#8217;s not so fun when they come true either! It&#8217;s all about the process, not the event.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan DeLange</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281105</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan DeLange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281105</guid>
		<description>&quot;Wishing is Free&quot;

This is true only if the failure of your desire to be satisfied doesn&#039;t come with any cost.  If it does - as regret, remorse or whatever - then desires for the impossible are desires that are never satisfied, and so are desires that may necessarily come with those costs.

And this doesn&#039;t presume anything about expectations.  For every year of their existence I&#039;ve wished for the Texans to win the superbowl.  For each of those years, I have never expected them to do any such thing.  And yet I am always disappointed when they are inevitably eliminated from playoff contention each year.

It may be fun to wish, but not so fun when those wishes are crushed...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Wishing is Free&#8221;</p>

	<p>This is true only if the failure of your desire to be satisfied doesn&#8217;t come with any cost.  If it does &#8211; as regret, remorse or whatever &#8211; then desires for the impossible are desires that are never satisfied, and so are desires that may necessarily come with those costs.</p>

	<p>And this doesn&#8217;t presume anything about expectations.  For every year of their existence I&#8217;ve wished for the Texans to win the superbowl.  For each of those years, I have never expected them to do any such thing.  And yet I am always disappointed when they are inevitably eliminated from playoff contention each year.</p>

	<p>It may be fun to wish, but not so fun when those wishes are crushed&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: micah</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281096</link>
		<dc:creator>micah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281096</guid>
		<description>Also, I&#039;m kind of astonished that this thread has gone on for this long without anyone linking to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070618&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; &lt;i&gt;Girl Genius&lt;/i&gt; plot thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, I&#8217;m kind of astonished that this thread has gone on for this long without anyone linking to <a href="http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070618" rel="nofollow">this</a> <i>Girl Genius</i> plot thread.</p>
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		<title>By: micah</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281095</link>
		<dc:creator>micah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281095</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;btw, wishing is not free – it’s constrained, like all other choices.&lt;/i&gt;

Wishing is free as in beer, not free as in speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>btw, wishing is not free &#8211; it&#8217;s constrained, like all other choices.</i></p>

	<p>Wishing is free as in beer, not free as in speech.</p>
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		<title>By: W. Kiernan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281092</link>
		<dc:creator>W. Kiernan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281092</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Holbo:&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;It is absurd to expect to get more from something than you think it is possible to get from anything.&lt;/i&gt;

But it is far from absurd that one particularly good thing could be better than everything put together.  Certainly a really good cup of coffee can be better than the best life possible.  Drinking an great cup of coffee is &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2002/4/25/13272/5729/214#214&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;100.0% good&lt;/a&gt; from start to finish.  On the other hand, any entire conscious life, no matter how free of sorrow, no matter how full of satisfaction, is invariably a mixed proposition, if for no other reason but that you&#039;ll eventually have to drop dead in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>Holbo:</b> <i>It is absurd to expect to get more from something than you think it is possible to get from anything.</i></p>

	<p>But it is far from absurd that one particularly good thing could be better than everything put together.  Certainly a really good cup of coffee can be better than the best life possible.  Drinking an great cup of coffee is <a HREF="http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2002/4/25/13272/5729/214#214" rel="nofollow">100.0% good</a> from start to finish.  On the other hand, any entire conscious life, no matter how free of sorrow, no matter how full of satisfaction, is invariably a mixed proposition, if for no other reason but that you&#8217;ll eventually have to drop dead in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281085</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281085</guid>
		<description>A Y Mous @ 51 - &lt;i&gt;I thought advertising was all about “Don’t make them think.”&lt;/i&gt; Better still - force them not to think by shutting down the critical faculty with absurd or contradictory content - leaving only the nice sounding buzzwords and the big graphic. Also helps to avoid pesky trading standards - your claims are so grandiose that they are impossible or even meaningless - and you couldn&#039;t really have made them. One step beyond Goebbels&#039;s Big Lie. You could - not implausibly - draw a comparison with the kind of disorientation used in brainwashing. Trouble is trying to expose such things tends to sound over-analytical or mildly hysterical, and at the least a bit spoilsporty. Like Bernard Manning&#039;s &#039;can&#039;t you take a joke?&#039;

To the post:
I assume we are talking about the intersting case of desiring something known to be impossible but not (known to be?) absurd or contradictory. 

That might be a bad strategy on scarce-cognitive-resources grounds a la Harman, Bratman - wasting the finite supply of desires, adding pointless extra processing to a decision-making process etc.

The pragmatic advisability of choosing to adopt such desires might depend on what the criterion for practical rationality is - minimising the number of unsatisfied desires, maximising the proportion of desires that are satisfied, maximising total desire-satisfaction. In the first two cases, desiring the impossible would always, cet par, frustrate the goal.

It would plausibly be absurd to desire &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; the impossible. 

Various not very plausible postulates of practical reason such as &#039;never take a course of action which will result in a situation in which one of your desires is impossible to attain&#039;, or &#039;maximise the probability of achieving all your desires&#039; could render a desire for the impossible irrational.

But otherwise, on a Humean desire-belief-intention model, it&#039;s probably not in itself irrational (helping myself to irrational as a proxy for absurdity here) to desire the impossible, since presumably your beliefs would never function so as translate the desire into an (absurdly quixotic) intention.

But the propositional content of &#039;coffee better than life could ever be&#039;, might count as absurd in itself, if conceived in some way along the lines of &#039;having coffee that contributes more value to life than life could ever have&#039;. If so it&#039;s plausible that the absurdity would remain whatever the modality/mood (desire, belief, wish, question etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">A Y </span>Mous @ 51 &#8211; <i>I thought advertising was all about &#8220;Don&#8217;t make them think.&#8221;</i> Better still &#8211; force them not to think by shutting down the critical faculty with absurd or contradictory content &#8211; leaving only the nice sounding buzzwords and the big graphic. Also helps to avoid pesky trading standards &#8211; your claims are so grandiose that they are impossible or even meaningless &#8211; and you couldn&#8217;t really have made them. One step beyond Goebbels&#8217;s Big Lie. You could &#8211; not implausibly &#8211; draw a comparison with the kind of disorientation used in brainwashing. Trouble is trying to expose such things tends to sound over-analytical or mildly hysterical, and at the least a bit spoilsporty. Like Bernard Manning&#8217;s &#8216;can&#8217;t you take a joke?&#8217;</p>

	<p>To the post:<br />
I assume we are talking about the intersting case of desiring something known to be impossible but not (known to be?) absurd or contradictory.</p>

	<p>That might be a bad strategy on scarce-cognitive-resources grounds a la Harman, Bratman &#8211; wasting the finite supply of desires, adding pointless extra processing to a decision-making process etc.</p>

	<p>The pragmatic advisability of choosing to adopt such desires might depend on what the criterion for practical rationality is &#8211; minimising the number of unsatisfied desires, maximising the proportion of desires that are satisfied, maximising total desire-satisfaction. In the first two cases, desiring the impossible would always, cet par, frustrate the goal.</p>

	<p>It would plausibly be absurd to desire <i>only</i> the impossible.</p>

	<p>Various not very plausible postulates of practical reason such as &#8216;never take a course of action which will result in a situation in which one of your desires is impossible to attain&#8217;, or &#8216;maximise the probability of achieving all your desires&#8217; could render a desire for the impossible irrational.</p>

	<p>But otherwise, on a Humean desire-belief-intention model, it&#8217;s probably not in itself irrational (helping myself to irrational as a proxy for absurdity here) to desire the impossible, since presumably your beliefs would never function so as translate the desire into an (absurdly quixotic) intention.</p>

	<p>But the propositional content of &#8216;coffee better than life could ever be&#8217;, might count as absurd in itself, if conceived in some way along the lines of &#8216;having coffee that contributes more value to life than life could ever have&#8217;. If so it&#8217;s plausible that the absurdity would remain whatever the modality/mood (desire, belief, wish, question etc).</p>
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		<title>By: nnyhav</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281079</link>
		<dc:creator>nnyhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281079</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thom.org/gallery/signs/IASTpotsign/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;or&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thom.org/gallery/unnat/IASTcoffeepot/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Folgers&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.thom.org/gallery/signs/IASTpotsign/" rel="nofollow">or</a> <a href="http://www.thom.org/gallery/unnat/IASTcoffeepot/" rel="nofollow">Folgers</a></p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281073</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281073</guid>
		<description>&quot;Rabbi, why can&#039;t we eat pork?&quot;

 &quot;We can&#039;t? Uh-oh.&quot;

And, uh, Ms. Olsen&#039;s expectations for &quot;the most&quot; from her life are informed by her awareness of how joy is inevitably tempered by sadness, in the aggregate.  However, a good cup of coffee, viewed in isolation, can be a completely unadulterated pleasure.

This still founders on the whole &quot;Nescafé&quot; thing, though.  Perhaps it is an unadulterated pleasure for Ms. Olsen to be reminded of the word &quot;portmanteau.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Rabbi, why can&#8217;t we eat pork?&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;We can&#8217;t? Uh-oh.&#8221;</p>

	<p>And, uh, Ms. Olsen&#8217;s expectations for &#8220;the most&#8221; from her life are informed by her awareness of how joy is inevitably tempered by sadness, in the aggregate.  However, a good cup of coffee, viewed in isolation, can be a completely unadulterated pleasure.</p>

	<p>This still founders on the whole &#8220;Nescaf&#233;&#8221; thing, though.  Perhaps it is an unadulterated pleasure for Ms. Olsen to be reminded of the word &#8220;portmanteau.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Billiken</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281072</link>
		<dc:creator>Billiken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281072</guid>
		<description>&quot;Still, I don’t think it is absurd to want coffee that would be better than life itself could possibly be. That would be a damn fine cup of coffee.&quot;

And lethal!

Thank you. I never realized before that ambrosia is poison. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Still, I don&#8217;t think it is absurd to want coffee that would be better than life itself could possibly be. That would be a damn fine cup of coffee.&#8221;</p>

	<p>And lethal!</p>

	<p>Thank you. I never realized before that ambrosia is poison. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281070</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281070</guid>
		<description>This all makes perfect sense to me.

&quot;I want the most out of my life&quot; = I want to live a long long time.

&quot;I expect even more from my coffee&quot; = I expect my coffee to come from coffee beans that are older than I&#039;ll ever live to be.

This explains why she drinks Nescafe. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This all makes perfect sense to me.</p>

	<p>&#8220;I want the most out of my life&#8221; = I want to live a long long time.</p>

	<p>&#8220;I expect even more from my coffee&#8221; = I expect my coffee to come from coffee beans that are older than I&#8217;ll ever live to be.</p>

	<p>This explains why she drinks Nescafe. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: indregard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281069</link>
		<dc:creator>indregard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281069</guid>
		<description>The absurd part is the expectation. &lt;i&gt;Wishing&lt;/i&gt; for the existence of a coffee better than &quot;the most&quot; life has to offer is not absurd. &lt;i&gt;Expecting&lt;/i&gt; it puts forward the metaphysical question of how you can add something and get more than the most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The absurd part is the expectation. <i>Wishing</i> for the existence of a coffee better than &#8220;the most&#8221; life has to offer is not absurd. <i>Expecting</i> it puts forward the metaphysical question of how you can add something and get more than the most.</p>
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		<title>By: rich</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281065</link>
		<dc:creator>rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281065</guid>
		<description>But, John, it&#039;s Nescafe &lt;i&gt;GOLD.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But, John, it&#8217;s Nescafe <i><span class="caps">GOLD</span>.</i></p>
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		<title>By: A. Y. Mous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/30/its-not-absurd-to-desire-the-impossible/comment-page-2/#comment-281062</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Y. Mous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=11841#comment-281062</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s this billboard on my way to work that makes the confident claim &quot;Happiness! At 3.25% per month. Go Visa.&quot; Been there for a couple of months. Still can&#039;t make what it means. Now, I have wrap my head around &quot;more than most&quot;? I thought advertising was all about &quot;Don&#039;t make them think.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s this billboard on my way to work that makes the confident claim &#8220;Happiness! At 3.25% per month. Go Visa.&#8221; Been there for a couple of months. Still can&#8217;t make what it means. Now, I have wrap my head around &#8220;more than most&#8221;? I thought advertising was all about &#8220;Don&#8217;t make them think.&#8221; </p>
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