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	<title>Comments on: Ashes open thread</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282423</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282423</guid>
		<description>btw ejh: didn&#039;t reply to your well-expressed response in re wisdom of not enforcing, mainly because  (IMO, to use the standard falsely modest Moorean pleonasm) largely correct - but &lt;i&gt;all the reasons except time are in favour of batting again&lt;/i&gt; isn&#039;t quite right - 2 others are:

1. the psychology of keeping the foot on the throat, as it&#039;s been charmingly analogised
and 
2. the advantage of batting to a known target (or a known-ly unachievable one) in a known timescale. 
oh, and 3:
3. If it really is the case, and significantly so, that the Lords pitch improves throughout, then, er, that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>btw ejh: didn&#8217;t reply to your well-expressed response in re wisdom of not enforcing, mainly because  (IMO, to use the standard falsely modest Moorean pleonasm) largely correct &#8211; but <i>all the reasons except time are in favour of batting again</i> isn&#8217;t quite right &#8211; 2 others are:</p>

	<p>1. the psychology of keeping the foot on the throat, as it&#8217;s been charmingly analogised<br />
and<br />
2. the advantage of batting to a known target (or a known-ly unachievable one) in a known timescale.<br />
oh, and 3:<br />
3. If it really is the case, and significantly so, that the Lords pitch improves throughout, then, er, that.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282378</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282378</guid>
		<description>Yes, barring bad weather the cricketing equivalent of excluded middle applies. (As intimated in an earlier Cassandrian comment, which it gives me no pleasure to see vindicated.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, barring bad weather the cricketing equivalent of excluded middle applies. (As intimated in an earlier Cassandrian comment, which it gives me no pleasure to see vindicated.)</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282377</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282377</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Odds still on an Eng win though.&lt;/i&gt;

But Australia only 5/2 against with a number of leading turf accountants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Odds still on an Eng win though.</i></p>

	<p>But Australia only 5/2 against with a number of leading turf accountants.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282375</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282375</guid>
		<description>Odds still on an Eng win though.

In the morning: 8 overs of Fred and Anderson charging in with the new ball and pitching it up on off-and-off+1, with 4 slips and a gully or two - proper old school. A wicket or three should be forthcoming from that and the rest ought to be manageable. After lunch? Spin. (as Mr Benaud&#039;s cadences would have it.)

Misleading slo-mo replays for establishing that a catch has carried, anyone? I&#039;d say that if the ball ends with fingers underneath and it hasn&#039;t bounced on the way, it must have been caught. You don&#039;t catch (rather than trap) a ball on the ground before it bounces back up, let alone somehow slither yer fingers round under it in one smooth split-second motion.

(btw @139 &#039;for enforcing&#039; should read &#039; for not enforcing&#039;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Odds still on an Eng win though.</p>

	<p>In the morning: 8 overs of Fred and Anderson charging in with the new ball and pitching it up on off-and-off+1, with 4 slips and a gully or two &#8211; proper old school. A wicket or three should be forthcoming from that and the rest ought to be manageable. After lunch? Spin. (as Mr Benaud&#8217;s cadences would have it.)</p>

	<p>Misleading slo-mo replays for establishing that a catch has carried, anyone? I&#8217;d say that if the ball ends with fingers underneath and it hasn&#8217;t bounced on the way, it must have been caught. You don&#8217;t catch (rather than trap) a ball on the ground before it bounces back up, let alone somehow slither yer fingers round under it in one smooth split-second motion.</p>

	<p>(btw @139 &#8216;for enforcing&#8217; should read &#8217; for not enforcing&#8217;)</p>
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		<title>By: mart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282372</link>
		<dc:creator>mart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282372</guid>
		<description>yeah that was a bit premature looking at it now. *sigh*
if i say that Australia have it in the bag now, do you suppose it will similarly jinx them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>yeah that was a bit premature looking at it now. <strong>sigh</strong><br />
if i say that Australia have it in the bag now, do you suppose it will similarly jinx them?</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282371</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282371</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;hmm…think we’ve got this one in the bag now. &lt;/i&gt;

Or not</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>hmm&#8230;think we&#8217;ve got this one in the bag now. </i></p>

	<p>Or not</p>
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		<title>By: mart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282366</link>
		<dc:creator>mart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 14:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282366</guid>
		<description>hmm...think we&#039;ve got this one in the bag now. Predictions for the rest of the series anyone? Aussies are going to need some major improvements in batting and bowling to get anywhere in this series, although form would suggest they just had a bad day four days at Lords...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>hmm&#8230;think we&#8217;ve got this one in the bag now. Predictions for the rest of the series anyone? Aussies are going to need some major improvements in batting and bowling to get anywhere in this series, although form would suggest they just had a bad day four days at Lords&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282365</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282365</guid>
		<description>But my poit was that (given good weather throughout) if the draw were on, so in all probability would the Aus win be. 

Obviously things looking entirely different by 12:40 BST. But it wasn&#039;t that implausible before the start that Aus could have been 110/0 rather than 90/3 by now. After all fortunes/form have been oscillating wildly thus far on both sides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But my poit was that (given good weather throughout) if the draw were on, so in all probability would the Aus win be.</p>

	<p>Obviously things looking entirely different by 12:40 <span class="caps">BST</span>. But it wasn&#8217;t that implausible before the start that Aus could have been 110/0 rather than 90/3 by now. After all fortunes/form have been oscillating wildly thus far on both sides.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282362</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282362</guid>
		<description>Game on?

In any normal continuation, the bext you can say is that the draw is ever so slightly on -or on&#039; ish would maybe be better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Game on?</p>

	<p>In any normal continuation, the bext you can say is that the draw is ever so slightly on -or on&#8217; ish would maybe be better.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282359</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282359</guid>
		<description>Hmm, ejh&#039;s link points out Nasser Hussain says batting easier on days 4 &amp; 5! The reverse was traditionally a reason for enforcing. If we don&#039;t lose too many overs, most of those runs would come as a corollary of Aus staying in: 180 overs @ 3, anyone? Still a definite game on here, pleasingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm, ejh&#8217;s link points out Nasser Hussain says batting easier on days 4 &#038; 5! The reverse was traditionally a reason for enforcing. If we don&#8217;t lose too many overs, most of those runs would come as a corollary of Aus staying in: 180 overs @ 3, anyone? Still a definite game on here, pleasingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282358</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282358</guid>
		<description>Wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282357</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282357</guid>
		<description>Right - 10 mins to go and I suspect they will go back in for 1/2 an hour or so...really get that lead to crushing proportions enabling even more attacking fields, and possibly even demoralise the opposition still further - as well as wrong-foot them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Right &#8211; 10 mins to go and I suspect they will go back in for 1/2 an hour or so&#8230;really get that lead to crushing proportions enabling even more attacking fields, and possibly even demoralise the opposition still further &#8211; as well as wrong-foot them?</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282356</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282356</guid>
		<description>In that last posting, sorry, &quot;declarations are&quot; should be &quot;enforcing is&quot;. Apologies. I&#039;ve had coffee this morning and all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In that last posting, sorry, &#8220;declarations are&#8221; should be &#8220;enforcing is&#8221;. Apologies. I&#8217;ve had coffee this morning and all.</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282355</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;any thoughts on the decision not t enforce the follow on?&lt;/i&gt;

Mine can be found &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jul/18/ashes-cricket&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;Enforcing the follow-on was the pub-commentary option, batting again was the professional option&lt;/i&gt;

Why would a team enforce a follow-on? Largely, for the reason the rule was introduced - because you think you might run out of time if you do not. This &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; be an element here, though to be honest, with two innings over before lunch on the third day, it shouldn&#039;t be. You might also enforce if you were so far ahead you thought it likelier than not that you would win without batting again, though that didn&#039;t sway Ricky Ponting &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cricinfo.com/ausveng/engine/match/249222.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. 

There might also have been an issue had the Australians been all out on the second evening (and the light been better) because you don&#039;t really want to start your innings towards the end of the day - I don&#039;t know what Strauss would have done in those circumstances. However, I&#039;m pretty sure that whatever time the last two Australian wickets had fallen on the third morning, Strauss and the great majority of captains (those playing in games, that is, not those sitting in commentary boxes) would have batted again. They would have done so for all the usual reasons - because you don&#039;t want to put tired bowlers out again immediately, because you want to bat the other side out of the game, because you don&#039;t want to be chasing a fourth-innings target (as happened, for instance, when Vaughan declared on the third morning in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/216994.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; game).

Basically, all the reasons except time are in favour of batting again, and as, in most comtemporary Test cricket, runs are scored faster and less time lost (because play can be extended) than was the case two or three years ago, declarations are now less common than was once the case. Though I was present on the third day of &lt;a&gt;this match&lt;/a&gt; twenty-five years ago, when Willis, having bowled out New Zealand in the morning session, chose not to enforce the follow-on - with a lead very close indeed to that which Strauss had yesterday. 

I&#039;d have been astonished if Strauss had put the Australians back in again. I&#039;d also have been surprised had the commentary-box mob not slagged him off for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>any thoughts on the decision not t enforce the follow on?</i></p>

	<p>Mine can be found <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jul/18/ashes-cricket" rel="nofollow">here</a>:</p>

	<p><i>Enforcing the follow-on was the pub-commentary option, batting again was the professional option</i></p>

	<p>Why would a team enforce a follow-on? Largely, for the reason the rule was introduced &#8211; because you think you might run out of time if you do not. This <i>might</i> be an element here, though to be honest, with two innings over before lunch on the third day, it shouldn&#8217;t be. You might also enforce if you were so far ahead you thought it likelier than not that you would win without batting again, though that didn&#8217;t sway Ricky Ponting <a href="http://www.cricinfo.com/ausveng/engine/match/249222.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>

	<p>There might also have been an issue had the Australians been all out on the second evening (and the light been better) because you don&#8217;t really want to start your innings towards the end of the day &#8211; I don&#8217;t know what Strauss would have done in those circumstances. However, I&#8217;m pretty sure that whatever time the last two Australian wickets had fallen on the third morning, Strauss and the great majority of captains (those playing in games, that is, not those sitting in commentary boxes) would have batted again. They would have done so for all the usual reasons &#8211; because you don&#8217;t want to put tired bowlers out again immediately, because you want to bat the other side out of the game, because you don&#8217;t want to be chasing a fourth-innings target (as happened, for instance, when Vaughan declared on the third morning in <a href="http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/216994.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> game).</p>

	<p>Basically, all the reasons except time are in favour of batting again, and as, in most comtemporary Test cricket, runs are scored faster and less time lost (because play can be extended) than was the case two or three years ago, declarations are now less common than was once the case. Though I was present on the third day of <a>this match</a> twenty-five years ago, when Willis, having bowled out New Zealand in the morning session, chose not to enforce the follow-on &#8211; with a lead very close indeed to that which Strauss had yesterday.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d have been astonished if Strauss had put the Australians back in again. I&#8217;d also have been surprised had the commentary-box mob not slagged him off for it.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/12/ashes-open-thread/comment-page-3/#comment-282354</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12024#comment-282354</guid>
		<description>Their hero Ponting on the other hand ...

So, anyone still there willing to decry a team and a player on a single shot?

Let&#039;s open a little bit of a bet: surely nobody on the Australian side will stall the game in the last pair of days ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Their hero Ponting on the other hand &#8230;</p>

	<p>So, anyone still there willing to decry a team and a player on a single shot?</p>

	<p>Let&#8217;s open a little bit of a bet: surely nobody on the Australian side will stall the game in the last pair of days ;-)</p>
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