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	<title>Comments on: Meet The New Face of the Anti-Trade Agenda</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-283824</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-283824</guid>
		<description>It seems to me two issues are being confused here.  One is whether seals should  be hunted and their furs sold .  I&#039;m firmly of the &quot;yes&quot; persuasion there, considering that  the opposition is solely due to the  fact that seal cubs happen to have round eyelids.   If  they had rat-like eyes and fur we&#039;d have heard nothing of them.

The  other - the point of the original post - is whether such prejudices, rational or not,  should be overriden by WTO regulations.  That&#039;s a lot tougher question.  If you answer yes then people like the French are gonna  find all sorts of ways of introducing unfair and economically very harmful practices aimed at protecting domestic vested interests.  But if you  don&#039;t  then - as the post points out - you may endanger the whole WTO agreements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It seems to me two issues are being confused here.  One is whether seals should  be hunted and their furs sold .  I&#8217;m firmly of the &#8220;yes&#8221; persuasion there, considering that  the opposition is solely due to the  fact that seal cubs happen to have round eyelids.   If  they had rat-like eyes and fur we&#8217;d have heard nothing of them.</p>

	<p>The  other &#8211; the point of the original post &#8211; is whether such prejudices, rational or not,  should be overriden by <span class="caps">WTO</span> regulations.  That&#8217;s a lot tougher question.  If you answer yes then people like the French are gonna  find all sorts of ways of introducing unfair and economically very harmful practices aimed at protecting domestic vested interests.  But if you  don&#8217;t  then &#8211; as the post points out &#8211; you may endanger the whole <span class="caps">WTO</span> agreements.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy McDonald</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-283021</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-283021</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s not a coincidence that the people who are being shafted here are either dirt-poor Atlantic Canadians (I, fwiw, am Atlantic Canadian, but I’m not personally affected by the future of the seal hunt) or the Inuit.&lt;/i&gt;

As an Atlantic Canadian, I heartily approve of the ban. 

The seal cull isn&#039;t necessary to restore the fisheries. For that matter, while blaming foreigners like Europeans for the collapse of the fisheries might make said Atlantic Canadians feel better, it is not the truth. Sadly, it is the greed of Atlantic Canadian fishers--remember the days of a fish plant in every major community back in the 1980s--that is responsible for the disappearance of the cod, and the ecological changes that has made it certain that the cod will not come back. The seals serve as scapegoats for people who have been left behind by the times.

As for the fact that seals are cute, I do not see how that affects things. The first animal-protection legislation was directed towards household pets like dogs and cats, animals which appealed to human on the grounds of--wait for it--their cuteness. Does that fact disqualify them from protection? I wonder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It&#8217;s not a coincidence that the people who are being shafted here are either dirt-poor Atlantic Canadians (I, fwiw, am Atlantic Canadian, but I&#8217;m not personally affected by the future of the seal hunt) or the Inuit.</i></p>

	<p>As an Atlantic Canadian, I heartily approve of the ban.</p>

	<p>The seal cull isn&#8217;t necessary to restore the fisheries. For that matter, while blaming foreigners like Europeans for the collapse of the fisheries might make said Atlantic Canadians feel better, it is not the truth. Sadly, it is the greed of Atlantic Canadian fishers&#8212;remember the days of a fish plant in every major community back in the 1980s&#8212;that is responsible for the disappearance of the cod, and the ecological changes that has made it certain that the cod will not come back. The seals serve as scapegoats for people who have been left behind by the times.</p>

	<p>As for the fact that seals are cute, I do not see how that affects things. The first animal-protection legislation was directed towards household pets like dogs and cats, animals which appealed to human on the grounds of&#8212;wait for it&#8212;their cuteness. Does that fact disqualify them from protection? I wonder.</p>
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		<title>By: mijnheer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282840</link>
		<dc:creator>mijnheer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282840</guid>
		<description>Most Canadians oppose the commercial seal hunt and think the EU should be allowed to restrict trade in seal products, according to a public-opinion poll conducted by Environics Research, one of Canada&#039;s leading polling firms: 
http://sprite.msn.com/Publications/Program_Publications/Seals/asset_upload_file328_26073.pdf
See also: http://www.ipsosna.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3889</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Most Canadians oppose the commercial seal hunt and think the EU should be allowed to restrict trade in seal products, according to a public-opinion poll conducted by Environics Research, one of Canada&#8217;s leading polling firms:<br />
<a href="http://sprite.msn.com/Publications/Program_Publications/Seals/asset_upload_file328_26073.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://sprite.msn.com/Publications/Program_Publications/Seals/asset_upload_file328_26073.pdf</a><br />
See also: <a href="http://www.ipsosna.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3889" rel="nofollow">http://www.ipsosna.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3889</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ernst</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282688</link>
		<dc:creator>Ernst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282688</guid>
		<description>@Jeff at 3 

It wouldn&#039;t surprise me if a majority of the EU parliament (the institution responsible for this ban) would like to ban bull fighting. Almost everybody here shares your views on bull fighting.  Unfortunately the Parliament  doesn&#039;t have the authority to ban bullfighting as it is an internal matter while they do have the partial power to regulate imports. The council could ban Bullfighting but as Spain has a veto there it&#039;s clear that it&#039;s not going to happen.

And as an aside I believe that if Canada was to increase the tariff on  foie gras it would be seen as an extra if unintended benefit and quite popular with the general populace over here. Props to Canada  if they take this route.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@Jeff at 3</p>

	<p>It wouldn&#8217;t surprise me if a majority of the EU parliament (the institution responsible for this ban) would like to ban bull fighting. Almost everybody here shares your views on bull fighting.  Unfortunately the Parliament  doesn&#8217;t have the authority to ban bullfighting as it is an internal matter while they do have the partial power to regulate imports. The council could ban Bullfighting but as Spain has a veto there it&#8217;s clear that it&#8217;s not going to happen.</p>

	<p>And as an aside I believe that if Canada was to increase the tariff on  foie gras it would be seen as an extra if unintended benefit and quite popular with the general populace over here. Props to Canada  if they take this route.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282663</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282663</guid>
		<description>35-

But this assumes that there is no standard at all for what constitutes an admissible claim of animal cruelty, that if such exceptions are allowed at all they will be allowed completely indiscriminately. I don&#039;t think this is how the world works. Anyway, it is certainly not the lesson of this case -- there is a reason why this discussion is happening wrt bludgeoning seals, a practice that appears exceptionally cruel, both because of the animal and the method of killing it.

More likely, allowing  exceptions for animal cruelty will strengthen the economic gradient between more and less cruel animal-rearing practices. It will create incentives to specialize in less emotionally appealing animals and to treat them in less obviously inhumane ways. Of course these incentives may not be all that strong, as Scott M. points out in 34, and of course the definition of cruelty that emerges from the political process won&#039;t match up precisely with what you or I might prefer. But they won&#039;t be completely uncorrelated -- it will be easier to make the political and legal case for genuinely cruel practices.

I mean, it&#039;s not as tho bans on genetically-modified organisms have opened the floodgate to agricultural protection of all kinds, even though in some abstract, legalistic sense you would be correct to say that all crops have been genetically modified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>35-</p>

	<p>But this assumes that there is no standard at all for what constitutes an admissible claim of animal cruelty, that if such exceptions are allowed at all they will be allowed completely indiscriminately. I don&#8217;t think this is how the world works. Anyway, it is certainly not the lesson of this case&#8212;there is a reason why this discussion is happening wrt bludgeoning seals, a practice that appears exceptionally cruel, both because of the animal and the method of killing it.</p>

	<p>More likely, allowing  exceptions for animal cruelty will strengthen the economic gradient between more and less cruel animal-rearing practices. It will create incentives to specialize in less emotionally appealing animals and to treat them in less obviously inhumane ways. Of course these incentives may not be all that strong, as Scott M. points out in 34, and of course the definition of cruelty that emerges from the political process won&#8217;t match up precisely with what you or I might prefer. But they won&#8217;t be completely uncorrelated&#8212;it will be easier to make the political and legal case for genuinely cruel practices.</p>

	<p>I mean, it&#8217;s not as tho bans on genetically-modified organisms have opened the floodgate to agricultural protection of all kinds, even though in some abstract, legalistic sense you would be correct to say that all crops have been genetically modified.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282619</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282619</guid>
		<description>23:  What I meant was that cruel treatment towards animals is so common in all the industrialized countries of the world that if the WTO agreement allowed it as an exeption for an import ban the agreement would have no teeth at all.  A vast number of products could be banned using that reason as a pretext for exactly the sort of protection the WTO is there to prevent.  I&#039;m not arguing that it is silly to simultaneously advocate free trade and concern for animal cruelty, but in the world we live in for the WTO agreements to be meaningful or even fair, they should not allow such an exception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>23:  What I meant was that cruel treatment towards animals is so common in all the industrialized countries of the world that if the <span class="caps">WTO</span> agreement allowed it as an exeption for an import ban the agreement would have no teeth at all.  A vast number of products could be banned using that reason as a pretext for exactly the sort of protection the <span class="caps">WTO</span> is there to prevent.  I&#8217;m not arguing that it is silly to simultaneously advocate free trade and concern for animal cruelty, but in the world we live in for the <span class="caps">WTO</span> agreements to be meaningful or even fair, they should not allow such an exception.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282607</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282607</guid>
		<description>Adult seals are large, fat, obnoxious, violent and not even remotely telegenic.  They are also very tasty when raw, sliced thin like carpaccio and dipped in soy sauce.  So... maybe I&#039;m not very sympathetic to the anti-sealing movement. I suppose being Canadian and having spent some childhood in Nunavut might have some influence on that.  Go figure.

But as a club to beat the WTO to death with, it does seem like pretty small potatoes.  I&#039;m not even sure it&#039;s going to make any meaningful difference to the ruling Conservatives in Canada.  I mean, if they rule *for* the EU the actual impact on the Canadian seal trade is fairly small.  Norway is the major external consumer of Canadian seals anyway - primarily for processing and then re-export to Russia and Asia - and it is unaffected.   

 Besides, the US has banned all marine mammal products for years.  I should think whatever excuse the US gets away with would be a viable defense for Brussels.

And if the WTO rules against the EU, does anyone really think you can build a successful anti-WTO movement on top of *baby seals*?!?  Look at the lack of success of the anti-EU movement in the UK - the EU is widely unpopular in Britain and the things the EU regulates are far, far closer to home for the public than seal products and they *still* can&#039;t score any meaningful influence on policy.

Trade liberalization may be set back by the global crisis.  But *this* is barely a bullet point in an election manifesto, and an ineffective one at that since all parties in Canada support the seal hunt, and no parties in the EU oppose the ban.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Adult seals are large, fat, obnoxious, violent and not even remotely telegenic.  They are also very tasty when raw, sliced thin like carpaccio and dipped in soy sauce.  So&#8230; maybe I&#8217;m not very sympathetic to the anti-sealing movement. I suppose being Canadian and having spent some childhood in Nunavut might have some influence on that.  Go figure.</p>

	<p>But as a club to beat the <span class="caps">WTO</span> to death with, it does seem like pretty small potatoes.  I&#8217;m not even sure it&#8217;s going to make any meaningful difference to the ruling Conservatives in Canada.  I mean, if they rule <strong>for</strong> the EU the actual impact on the Canadian seal trade is fairly small.  Norway is the major external consumer of Canadian seals anyway &#8211; primarily for processing and then re-export to Russia and Asia &#8211; and it is unaffected.</p>

	<p>Besides, the US has banned all marine mammal products for years.  I should think whatever excuse the US gets away with would be a viable defense for Brussels.</p>

	<p>And if the <span class="caps">WTO</span> rules against the EU, does anyone really think you can build a successful anti-WTO movement on top of <strong>baby seals</strong>?!?  Look at the lack of success of the anti-EU movement in the <span class="caps">UK </span>- the EU is widely unpopular in Britain and the things the EU regulates are far, far closer to home for the public than seal products and they <strong>still</strong> can&#8217;t score any meaningful influence on policy.</p>

	<p>Trade liberalization may be set back by the global crisis.  But <strong>this</strong> is barely a bullet point in an election manifesto, and an ineffective one at that since all parties in Canada support the seal hunt, and no parties in the EU oppose the ban.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282536</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282536</guid>
		<description>Lemuel- I&#039;m not sure how you think you know my considered position on this- I&#039;ve just been reporting what the law is and what I think the likely outcomes are.  My response to you was just that would-be changes that only require other people to change while having no real impact on the one demanding the change ought to be looked at a bit skeptically.  As often as not they are a way to allow the side demanding that others change to feel like they&#039;ve done good without changing their own behavior at all.  That&#039;s just an observation about human nature (do you deny it?  It seems pretty common to me), not a statement about the merits of the claims at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lemuel- I&#8217;m not sure how you think you know my considered position on this- I&#8217;ve just been reporting what the law is and what I think the likely outcomes are.  My response to you was just that would-be changes that only require other people to change while having no real impact on the one demanding the change ought to be looked at a bit skeptically.  As often as not they are a way to allow the side demanding that others change to feel like they&#8217;ve done good without changing their own behavior at all.  That&#8217;s just an observation about human nature (do you deny it?  It seems pretty common to me), not a statement about the merits of the claims at all.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282520</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282520</guid>
		<description>Walt, I assume you&#039;re being sarcastic. But obviously there was a long rolling repeal of the Glass-Steagall before then. It&#039;s really the opposite of the sort of immaculate regulation that Matt, King Rat, etc. are looking for.

In general, I&#039;m always a little puzzled by the idea that it&#039;s somehow illegitimate for a political movement to present its goals in the most favorable light, to meet people where they are rather than demanding everything at once, or to take advantage of the self-interest of elected officials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Walt, I assume you&#8217;re being sarcastic. But obviously there was a long rolling repeal of the Glass-Steagall before then. It&#8217;s really the opposite of the sort of immaculate regulation that Matt, King Rat, etc. are looking for.</p>

	<p>In general, I&#8217;m always a little puzzled by the idea that it&#8217;s somehow illegitimate for a political movement to present its goals in the most favorable light, to meet people where they are rather than demanding everything at once, or to take advantage of the self-interest of elected officials.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282517</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282517</guid>
		<description>The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282516</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282516</guid>
		<description>27-

So what are some examples of social reforms or regulations that did *not* begin with a limited set of particularly egregious or politically feasible cases?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>27-</p>

	<p>So what are some examples of social reforms or regulations that did <strong>not</strong> begin with a limited set of particularly egregious or politically feasible cases?</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282511</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282511</guid>
		<description>As best I understand it, the cubs are protected until they are 12 days old - after that, they are &quot;fair game&quot;:http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/05/world/new-demand-drives-canada-s-baby-seal-hunt.html.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As best I understand it, the cubs are protected until they are 12 days old &#8211; after that, they are <a href="<a" title="">fair game</a> href=&#8221;http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/05/world/new-demand-drives-canada-s-baby-seal-hunt.html&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/05/world/new-demand-drives-canada-s-baby-seal-hunt.html.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282508</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282508</guid>
		<description>&quot;...Internet gambling access to the US (where based outside the US)? Could have fairly wide ranging consequences.&quot;

Didn&#039;t the US already lose this case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;&#8230;Internet gambling access to the <span class="caps">US </span>(where based outside the US)? Could have fairly wide ranging consequences.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Didn&#8217;t the US already lose this case?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282497</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282497</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Surely bans on baby-seal-clubbing make future regulation of other cruel forms of animal husbandry more likely, not less likely, no?&lt;/i&gt; 

Maybe, but I&#039;d not be sure.  Often things like this, especially when done in relation to the practices of others, allow people to feel less bad about their own bad practices.  &quot;We care about animals, after all, we banned the (apparently non-existent*) clubbing of baby seals!&quot; So, no need to worry about our own practices, which are necessary/part of our culture/produce something delicious, etc.  I don&#039;t mean to pick out the EU in particular there, but this sort of action seems pretty common among humans.  
*I take it that seals are killed, but it seems that &quot;baby&quot; ones of the sort pictured here are not killed, or at least not in any cases that would be stopped by the EU law.   As far as I can tell the EU law applies to seals of whatever age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Surely bans on baby-seal-clubbing make future regulation of other cruel forms of animal husbandry more likely, not less likely, no?</i></p>

	<p>Maybe, but I&#8217;d not be sure.  Often things like this, especially when done in relation to the practices of others, allow people to feel less bad about their own bad practices.  &#8220;We care about animals, after all, we banned the (apparently non-existent*) clubbing of baby seals!&#8221; So, no need to worry about our own practices, which are necessary/part of our culture/produce something delicious, etc.  I don&#8217;t mean to pick out the EU in particular there, but this sort of action seems pretty common among humans.</p>
	<p>*I take it that seals are killed, but it seems that &#8220;baby&#8221; ones of the sort pictured here are not killed, or at least not in any cases that would be stopped by the EU law.   As far as I can tell the EU law applies to seals of whatever age.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/meet-the-new-face-of-the-anti-trade-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-282492</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12077#comment-282492</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I am not in favor of clubbing seals, but don’t much like intensive farming/unpleasant production methods etc a la EU member states either&lt;/i&gt;

Why &quot;but&quot;? Surely bans on baby-seal-clubbing make future regulation of other cruel forms of animal husbandry more likely, not less likely, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I am not in favor of clubbing seals, but don&#8217;t much like intensive farming/unpleasant production methods etc a la EU member states either</i></p>

	<p>Why &#8220;but&#8221;? Surely bans on baby-seal-clubbing make future regulation of other cruel forms of animal husbandry more likely, not less likely, no?</p>
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