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	<title>Comments on: Will today&#8217;s innovations stop future innovations?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Chick Foxgrover</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-283020</link>
		<dc:creator>Chick Foxgrover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-283020</guid>
		<description>I think though that the advance that Web 2.0 and cloud apps is about the portability of data. Not about app design. App design is far less important now because data interchange formats exist. Before, apps created proprietary data formats that required that app to run. This is a weakness in that part of Zittrain&#039;s argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think though that the advance that Web 2.0 and cloud apps is about the portability of data. Not about app design. App design is far less important now because data interchange formats exist. Before, apps created proprietary data formats that required that app to run. This is a weakness in that part of Zittrain&#8217;s argument.</p>
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		<title>By: The Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282666</link>
		<dc:creator>The Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282666</guid>
		<description>The iPhone has a &quot;remote kill app&quot; feature which is under Apple&#039;s control. Does it matter where the app is physically running, if that is the case? This is bad enough. But there&#039;s worse. The &quot;remote kill&quot; feature is what security experts commonly call a &quot;back door&quot;--a hole in the device&#039;s security. There&#039;s every reason to think that J. Well-paid-mafia Hacker can break in to your iPhone and kill any app.

BTW, the subject that&#039;s being addressed is might be more broadly called &quot;the ethics of &lt;a href=&quot;http://sandbox.xerox.com/ubicomp/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ubiquitous computing&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The iPhone has a &#8220;remote kill app&#8221; feature which is under Apple&#8217;s control. Does it matter where the app is physically running, if that is the case? This is bad enough. But there&#8217;s worse. The &#8220;remote kill&#8221; feature is what security experts commonly call a &#8220;back door&#8221;&#8212;a hole in the device&#8217;s security. There&#8217;s every reason to think that J. Well-paid-mafia Hacker can break in to your iPhone and kill any app.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>, the subject that&#8217;s being addressed is might be more broadly called &#8220;the ethics of <a href="http://sandbox.xerox.com/ubicomp/" rel="nofollow">ubiquitous computing</a>.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282590</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282590</guid>
		<description>(and I will now go have some coffee and calm down)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(and I will now go have some coffee and calm down)</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282588</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282588</guid>
		<description>Substance, the thing that&#039;s so annoying about the term &quot;cloud computing&quot; is that the metaphor of a cloud &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a long-standing image for depicting the Internet, or any large network (individuals connect to the edges of the cloud, and nobody, maybe even the network administrators, cares what goes on inside).  But &quot;cloud computing&quot; is now a buzzword.  The Times printed a marketing analysis piece a few months ago, which I can&#039;t find now, solemnly analyzing the difference between cloud computing and whatever it used to be called.

Does Google&#039;s Chrome really meet the criteria to be called cloud computing, given the hairsplitting of IBM&#039;s marketers?  I kind of doubt it, but as it happens I&#039;m temperamentally unsuited for understanding marketeers&#039; particular version of hairsplitting.  So, as you say, why fasten on cloud computing itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Substance, the thing that&#8217;s so annoying about the term &#8220;cloud computing&#8221; is that the metaphor of a cloud <i>is</i> a long-standing image for depicting the Internet, or any large network (individuals connect to the edges of the cloud, and nobody, maybe even the network administrators, cares what goes on inside).  But &#8220;cloud computing&#8221; is now a buzzword.  The Times printed a marketing analysis piece a few months ago, which I can&#8217;t find now, solemnly analyzing the difference between cloud computing and whatever it used to be called.</p>

	<p>Does Google&#8217;s Chrome really meet the criteria to be called cloud computing, given the hairsplitting of <span class="caps">IBM</span>&#8217;s marketers?  I kind of doubt it, but as it happens I&#8217;m temperamentally unsuited for understanding marketeers&#8217; particular version of hairsplitting.  So, as you say, why fasten on cloud computing itself?</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282586</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282586</guid>
		<description>@23: The problem of lack of transparency of the Kindle&#039;s rules had been seeping out for a couple of weeks at least.  It&#039;s the lawyers responsible for that, not &quot;technology.&quot;  TCP/IP does not dictate that a newspaper jobs site claims copyright over my resume after I&#039;ve posted it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@23: The problem of lack of transparency of the Kindle&#8217;s rules had been seeping out for a couple of weeks at least.  It&#8217;s the lawyers responsible for that, not &#8220;technology.&#8221;  <span class="caps">TCP</span>/IP does not dictate that a newspaper jobs site claims copyright over my resume after I&#8217;ve posted it.</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282584</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282584</guid>
		<description>Which argument, by the way, is balderdash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Which argument, by the way, is balderdash.</p>
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		<title>By: bianca steele</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282583</link>
		<dc:creator>bianca steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282583</guid>
		<description>Sorry I&#039;m not following every new tool that comes out.  I lost interest in learning to program for the Mac long before there was anything free available, or even anything reasonably priced if you didn&#039;t qualify for university discounts.

Call me naive, but I assumed Zittrain&#039;s argument here had something to do with the argument in the book he just published, where he links any schmoe&#039;s being able to hack up some program and have the computer run it, with freedom per se and all the liberating things technology provides us.  Which has nothing to do with when you could get a Java IDE for the Macintosh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry I&#8217;m not following every new tool that comes out.  I lost interest in learning to program for the Mac long before there was anything free available, or even anything reasonably priced if you didn&#8217;t qualify for university discounts.</p>

	<p>Call me naive, but I assumed Zittrain&#8217;s argument here had something to do with the argument in the book he just published, where he links any schmoe&#8217;s being able to hack up some program and have the computer run it, with freedom per se and all the liberating things technology provides us.  Which has nothing to do with when you could get a Java <span class="caps">IDE</span> for the Macintosh.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282578</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282578</guid>
		<description>&quot;The issue I suppose is whether the Kindle/iStore services count as ‘online subscription services’ – my knowledge regarding these things is negligible. When you purchase an e-book/iPhone app, are they downloaded directly onto the Kindle/iPhone hard-drive/memory? If so, then perhaps the ‘cloud’ metaphor is inappropriate, since those goods would be ‘freely in [one’s] custody’. If instead they rely on some kind of permanent access to whichever book/app – hosted elsewhere – then I can’t see a problem, conceptually, with lumping those services into the ‘cloud’.&quot;

Well, look at the case recently of Amazon deleting copies of books (ironically enough, including 1984)  that were stored on people&#039;s Kindles. I don&#039;t have one, so I don&#039;t know if online access is necessary (presumably not, or it would render them useless underground or abroad) , but clearly if you do go online with one, your personal control over your stored data is not complete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The issue I suppose is whether the Kindle/iStore services count as &#8216;online subscription services&#8217; &#8211; my knowledge regarding these things is negligible. When you purchase an e-book/iPhone app, are they downloaded directly onto the Kindle/iPhone hard-drive/memory? If so, then perhaps the &#8216;cloud&#8217; metaphor is inappropriate, since those goods would be &#8216;freely in [one&#8217;s] custody&#8217;. If instead they rely on some kind of permanent access to whichever book/app &#8211; hosted elsewhere &#8211; then I can&#8217;t see a problem, conceptually, with lumping those services into the &#8216;cloud&#8217;.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, look at the case recently of Amazon deleting copies of books (ironically enough, including 1984)  that were stored on people&#8217;s Kindles. I don&#8217;t have one, so I don&#8217;t know if online access is necessary (presumably not, or it would render them useless underground or abroad) , but clearly if you do go online with one, your personal control over your stored data is not complete.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282574</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282574</guid>
		<description>Some further relevant commentary at Slate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2223214/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Some further relevant commentary at Slate:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2223214/" rel="nofollow">http://www.slate.com/id/2223214/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282573</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282573</guid>
		<description>bq. With a little effort and political will, we could solve these problems. Companies could be required under fair practices law to allow your data to be released back to you with just a click so that you can erase your digital footprints or simply take your business (and data) elsewhere.

This doesn&#039;t seem to take account of the way the cloud crosses jurisdictional boundaries. A lot of my data is now in the hands of US-based companies, and yet I&#039;m in the UK. Of course there&#039;s no reason why providers of internet services shouldn&#039;t locate themselves in Liberia or Panama in order to avoid regulation, if they want to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote>With a little effort and political will, we could solve these problems. Companies could be required under fair practices law to allow your data to be released back to you with just a click so that you can erase your digital footprints or simply take your business (and data) elsewhere.</blockquote>

	<p>This doesn&#8217;t seem to take account of the way the cloud crosses jurisdictional boundaries. A lot of my data is now in the hands of US-based companies, and yet I&#8217;m in the UK. Of course there&#8217;s no reason why providers of internet services shouldn&#8217;t locate themselves in Liberia or Panama in order to avoid regulation, if they want to.</p>
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		<title>By: Substance McGravitas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282556</link>
		<dc:creator>Substance McGravitas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282556</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If instead they rely on some kind of permanent access to whichever book/app – hosted elsewhere – then I can’t see a problem, conceptually, with lumping those services into the ‘cloud’.&lt;/blockquote&gt;It&#039;s still not what I think of as an ordinary conception of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cloudiness,&lt;/a&gt; it&#039;s just being part of a network with an especially intrusive controller.  The value of saying &quot;cloud&quot; as opposed to &quot;network&quot; in such circumstances seems close to zero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>If instead they rely on some kind of permanent access to whichever book/app &#8211; hosted elsewhere &#8211; then I can&#8217;t see a problem, conceptually, with lumping those services into the &#8216;cloud&#8217;.</blockquote>It&#8217;s still not what I think of as an ordinary conception of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing" title="" rel="nofollow">cloudiness,</a> it&#8217;s just being part of a network with an especially intrusive controller.  The value of saying &#8220;cloud&#8221; as opposed to &#8220;network&#8221; in such circumstances seems close to zero.</p>
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		<title>By: nickhayw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282554</link>
		<dc:creator>nickhayw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282554</guid>
		<description>Well, I for one found the article kinda interesting, so thank you for sharing! I&#039;m neither a techno-nerd nor an Apple-fiend - my nerdiness resides elsewhere - so I can&#039;t comment on the finer points of programming or Apple hardware, but the gist of Zittrain&#039;s article makes sense to me: once-unacceptable breaches of privacy or personal property rights may become more commonplace as our goods become less tangible (or are removed from our immediate possession). 

At the very least this would seem to accord with a general fear regarding the huge volumes of personal information and assets now held in digital form - especially those that are directly in the &#039;cloud&#039;, or at least intimately connected with some cloud-like service provider (Apple&#039;s iStore or whatever, Amazon and it&#039;s e-books). 

I mean, I keep a lot of stuff on gmail, for example, and the only thing that keeps me at ease is my trust in google (there&#039;s a dollar bill slogan) and my blind assumption that the safeguards necessary to protect my stuff exist, and are exercised.

re: the inappropriateness of the &#039;cloud&#039; metaphor applied to Apple/Amazon, the distinction Zittrain makes is this:

&lt;q&gt;...if your favorite music is rented &lt;i&gt;or authorized&lt;/i&gt; from an online subscription service rather than freely in your custody&lt;/q&gt;

Where &#039;favourite music&#039; might be replaced with &#039;e-book&#039;, &#039;iPhone app&#039;, etc. My emphasis on &#039;or authorized&#039;. There is a leap here, sure, but not an unreasonable one. 

The issue I suppose is whether the Kindle/iStore services count as &#039;online subscription services&#039; - my knowledge regarding these things is negligible. When you purchase an e-book/iPhone app, are they downloaded directly onto the Kindle/iPhone hard-drive/memory? If so, then perhaps the &#039;cloud&#039; metaphor is inappropriate, since those goods would be &#039;freely in [one&#039;s] custody&#039;. If instead they rely on some kind of permanent access to whichever book/app - hosted elsewhere - then I can&#039;t see a problem, conceptually, with lumping those services into the &#039;cloud&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, I for one found the article kinda interesting, so thank you for sharing! I&#8217;m neither a techno-nerd nor an Apple-fiend &#8211; my nerdiness resides elsewhere &#8211; so I can&#8217;t comment on the finer points of programming or Apple hardware, but the gist of Zittrain&#8217;s article makes sense to me: once-unacceptable breaches of privacy or personal property rights may become more commonplace as our goods become less tangible (or are removed from our immediate possession).</p>

	<p>At the very least this would seem to accord with a general fear regarding the huge volumes of personal information and assets now held in digital form &#8211; especially those that are directly in the &#8216;cloud&#8217;, or at least intimately connected with some cloud-like service provider (Apple&#8217;s iStore or whatever, Amazon and it&#8217;s e-books).</p>

	<p>I mean, I keep a lot of stuff on gmail, for example, and the only thing that keeps me at ease is my trust in google (there&#8217;s a dollar bill slogan) and my blind assumption that the safeguards necessary to protect my stuff exist, and are exercised.</p>

	<p>re: the inappropriateness of the &#8216;cloud&#8217; metaphor applied to Apple/Amazon, the distinction Zittrain makes is this:</p>

	<p><q>&#8230;if your favorite music is rented <i>or authorized</i> from an online subscription service rather than freely in your custody</q></p>

	<p>Where &#8216;favourite music&#8217; might be replaced with &#8216;e-book&#8217;, &#8216;iPhone app&#8217;, etc. My emphasis on &#8216;or authorized&#8217;. There is a leap here, sure, but not an unreasonable one.</p>

	<p>The issue I suppose is whether the Kindle/iStore services count as &#8216;online subscription services&#8217; &#8211; my knowledge regarding these things is negligible. When you purchase an e-book/iPhone app, are they downloaded directly onto the Kindle/iPhone hard-drive/memory? If so, then perhaps the &#8216;cloud&#8217; metaphor is inappropriate, since those goods would be &#8216;freely in [one&#8217;s] custody&#8217;. If instead they rely on some kind of permanent access to whichever book/app &#8211; hosted elsewhere &#8211; then I can&#8217;t see a problem, conceptually, with lumping those services into the &#8216;cloud&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Substance McGravitas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282553</link>
		<dc:creator>Substance McGravitas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282553</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s that Apple and its iPhone products don&#039;t seem to many people to match what people think of when the cloud is mentioned.  Similarly the Kindle bit:  he&#039;s using the cloud metaphor in a way that people I know would be baffled by, like saying cable tv is the cloud.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s that Apple and its iPhone products don&#8217;t seem to many people to match what people think of when the cloud is mentioned.  Similarly the Kindle bit:  he&#8217;s using the cloud metaphor in a way that people I know would be baffled by, like saying cable tv is the cloud.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282551</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282551</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s too bad that Zittrain&#039;s potentially important point fell afoul of the fact that you&#039;re not allowed to say anything bad about Apple on the Internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s too bad that Zittrain&#8217;s potentially important point fell afoul of the fact that you&#8217;re not allowed to say anything bad about Apple on the Internet.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/20/will-todays-innovations-stop-future-innovations/comment-page-1/#comment-282550</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12071#comment-282550</guid>
		<description>Ignorance abounding, as is so often the case where Apple is concerned. Xcode is free, as has been noted, it has been for 5 or 6 years (an eternity in Internet time) and yes it supports C++ and a host of other programming languages. The costlier to develop for is just BS. The author of this piece shot himself in the foot with his Apple/Cloud comparisons. Result: any interesting and probably important discussion on drawbacks to the Cloud computing bandwagon gets derailed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ignorance abounding, as is so often the case where Apple is concerned. Xcode is free, as has been noted, it has been for 5 or 6 years (an eternity in Internet time) and yes it supports C++ and a host of other programming languages. The costlier to develop for is just BS. The author of this piece shot himself in the foot with his Apple/Cloud comparisons. Result: any interesting and probably important discussion on drawbacks to the Cloud computing bandwagon gets derailed.</p>
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