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	<title>Comments on: Good Greif</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284435</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284435</guid>
		<description>Wow, that was a babbling comment. Must to bed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wow, that was a babbling comment. Must to bed.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284434</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284434</guid>
		<description>&quot;Property rights&quot; is obviously a deeply strained way of looking at it, but the underlying notion seems to be that X has some connection with research program Y such that any mention of Y requires a mention of X. And we see claims to that effect all the time in academia--particularly in peer reviews. I&#039;m not saying that&#039;s a good practice. One of &quot;Nexon&#039;s rules for peer reviewing&quot; is that criticisms for &quot;failing to invoke a work&quot; should be coupled with reasons why invoking that work might change or impact the argument.  

But there&#039;s also a sense in which one has a responsibility to find out what&#039;s been published in an area of work and to avoid replication without citation. That&#039;s been a semi-regular topic of discussion here (think Kieran&#039;s complaints about physicists and social network analysis, or the &quot;Eurovision&quot; incident). In my subfield (International Relations), I do think there&#039;s certain laziness about citing articles from certain journals (*cough* IO *cough*) when articles in other journals are actually more on point.

And there&#039;s also the larger question of how citation practices impact the careers of scholars; certainly there are cases in which scholars routinely fail to cite work they&#039;re familiar with, and even if those reasons are benign, that failure helps to marginalize the people they&#039;re failing to cite.

Yes, of course, like Henry I&#039;ve read articles or books and thought &quot;WTF&quot; when I don&#039;t see a reference to my work, but I&#039;ve learned to get over it. What I do see (particularly when reviewing) are scholars who aren&#039;t adventurous enough to stray beyond one or two journals--or &quot;must read&quot; articles--and thus miss stuff that they&#039;re replicating or really ought to deal with in order to improve their argument. On the other hand, I&#039;ve had reviewers criticize me for not including a reference to some article that makes the same point as a number of other articles in a string citation, and at least twice that&#039;s because I needed to reduce my word count.

Which raises another issue: how the decreasing maximum length of journal articles encourages us to skimp on citations.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Property rights&#8221; is obviously a deeply strained way of looking at it, but the underlying notion seems to be that X has some connection with research program Y such that any mention of Y requires a mention of X. And we see claims to that effect all the time in academia&#8212;particularly in peer reviews. I&#8217;m not saying that&#8217;s a good practice. One of &#8220;Nexon&#8217;s rules for peer reviewing&#8221; is that criticisms for &#8220;failing to invoke a work&#8221; should be coupled with reasons why invoking that work might change or impact the argument.</p>

	<p>But there&#8217;s also a sense in which one has a responsibility to find out what&#8217;s been published in an area of work and to avoid replication without citation. That&#8217;s been a semi-regular topic of discussion here (think Kieran&#8217;s complaints about physicists and social network analysis, or the &#8220;Eurovision&#8221; incident). In my subfield (International Relations), I do think there&#8217;s certain laziness about citing articles from certain journals (*cough* <span class="caps">IO </span><strong>cough</strong>) when articles in other journals are actually more on point.</p>

	<p>And there&#8217;s also the larger question of how citation practices impact the careers of scholars; certainly there are cases in which scholars routinely fail to cite work they&#8217;re familiar with, and even if those reasons are benign, that failure helps to marginalize the people they&#8217;re failing to cite.</p>

	<p>Yes, of course, like Henry I&#8217;ve read articles or books and thought &#8220;WTF&#8221; when I don&#8217;t see a reference to my work, but I&#8217;ve learned to get over it. What I do see (particularly when reviewing) are scholars who aren&#8217;t adventurous enough to stray beyond one or two journals&#8212;or &#8220;must read&#8221; articles&#8212;and thus miss stuff that they&#8217;re replicating or really ought to deal with in order to improve their argument. On the other hand, I&#8217;ve had reviewers criticize me for not including a reference to some article that makes the same point as a number of other articles in a string citation, and at least twice that&#8217;s because I needed to reduce my word count.</p>

	<p>Which raises another issue: how the decreasing maximum length of journal articles encourages us to skimp on citations&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284409</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 03:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284409</guid>
		<description>D. Nexon: &quot;But we do often expect certain scholars to be cited on specific subjects, which strikes me as pretty much the same thing as saying they have an &#039;intellectual property right&#039; to the topic.&quot; 

No, I do not think this is &quot;pretty much the same thing.&quot;

D. Nexon asks: What rules of justice and fairness apply to citation practices? 
Since it is virtually impossible to cite all the relevant literature on any topic of any consequence that has been around for any length of time, it seems to me that there must be a large element of judgment and discretion in citation practices. The notion that, as a broad proposition, &quot;rules of justice and fairness&quot; apply to citation practices seems very dubious to me. Rules of accuracy and attribution obviously apply, and I think we all  know what those are. But these are not the same as rules of justice and fairness. If, for example,  I write something and I take an idea directly (or indirectly) from Nexon, then I damn well better cite Nexon for that idea. But if I write about a topic that Nexon has written about and I don&#039;t cite Nexon (say in a string citation of &quot;see XYZ on [the general topic]&quot;), I don&#039;t agree that I am being &quot;unfair&quot; or &quot;unjust&quot; to Nexon.  In that case I may (or may not) be revealing myself as a shoddy, careless, lazy, and/or inferior scholar, but that&#039;s my problem.  I don&#039;t think fairness or justice much enters into it. That, at least, is my off-the-cuff reaction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>D. Nexon: &#8220;But we do often expect certain scholars to be cited on specific subjects, which strikes me as pretty much the same thing as saying they have an &#8216;intellectual property right&#8217; to the topic.&#8221;</p>

	<p>No, I do not think this is &#8220;pretty much the same thing.&#8221;</p>

	<p>D. Nexon asks: What rules of justice and fairness apply to citation practices?<br />
Since it is virtually impossible to cite all the relevant literature on any topic of any consequence that has been around for any length of time, it seems to me that there must be a large element of judgment and discretion in citation practices. The notion that, as a broad proposition, &#8220;rules of justice and fairness&#8221; apply to citation practices seems very dubious to me. Rules of accuracy and attribution obviously apply, and I think we all  know what those are. But these are not the same as rules of justice and fairness. If, for example,  I write something and I take an idea directly (or indirectly) from Nexon, then I damn well better cite Nexon for that idea. But if I write about a topic that Nexon has written about and I don&#8217;t cite Nexon (say in a string citation of &#8220;see <span class="caps">XYZ</span> on [the general topic]&#8221;), I don&#8217;t agree that I am being &#8220;unfair&#8221; or &#8220;unjust&#8221; to Nexon.  In that case I may (or may not) be revealing myself as a shoddy, careless, lazy, and/or inferior scholar, but that&#8217;s my problem.  I don&#8217;t think fairness or justice much enters into it. That, at least, is my off-the-cuff reaction.</p>
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		<title>By: monboddo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284261</link>
		<dc:creator>monboddo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284261</guid>
		<description>OK, maybe a little unfair to Rowley, but too tempting a line to pass up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, maybe a little unfair to Rowley, but too tempting a line to pass up.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284167</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284167</guid>
		<description>Dan (about to head to Ireland and have been meaning to phone you for weeks about lunch - will you still be around next academic year in yr new responsibilities?) - this is a more interesting question for discussion. There is a fair amount of work on the sociology of citation, I think, and there are obviously norms. But a norm of attribution does not necessarily equate to a property right in having your work attributed. I may feel highly annoyed when someone doesn&#039;t cite my pathbreaking work on _XXXX_, but I don&#039;t feel (or, at least, _I_ don&#039;t feel) that my property rights are being abrogated. Rowley&#039;s theory is perhaps based in a kind of crackpot Lockeanism, perhaps not.

Monboddo - since I don&#039;t otherwise know Rowley or his work, I am not going to comment on &#039;em. Could be that he is otherwise an intellectually meticulous supergenius whose hobbies comprise rescuing fluffy kittens from burning skyscrapers and discovering the cure for cancer. But this article is a real piece of work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan (about to head to Ireland and have been meaning to phone you for weeks about lunch &#8211; will you still be around next academic year in yr new responsibilities?) &#8211; this is a more interesting question for discussion. There is a fair amount of work on the sociology of citation, I think, and there are obviously norms. But a norm of attribution does not necessarily equate to a property right in having your work attributed. I may feel highly annoyed when someone doesn&#8217;t cite my pathbreaking work on <em><span class="caps">XXXX</span></em>, but I don&#8217;t feel (or, at least, <em>I</em> don&#8217;t feel) that my property rights are being abrogated. Rowley&#8217;s theory is perhaps based in a kind of crackpot Lockeanism, perhaps not.</p>

	<p>Monboddo &#8211; since I don&#8217;t otherwise know Rowley or his work, I am not going to comment on &#8216;em. Could be that he is otherwise an intellectually meticulous supergenius whose hobbies comprise rescuing fluffy kittens from burning skyscrapers and discovering the cure for cancer. But this article is a real piece of work.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284160</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284160</guid>
		<description>The piece is so outrageous and craven that I think a more useful time would be spent discussing the general issues it raises about citation practices. I&#039;m also curious what others make of the notion of someone having &quot;intellectual property rights&quot; to a subject. At one level, it doesn&#039;t make much sense to me. No one really &quot;owns&quot; a subject. 

But we do often expect certain scholars to be cited on specific subjects, which strikes me as pretty much the same thing as saying they have an &quot;intellectual property right&quot; to the topic. And surely, sometimes, those scholars are cited for reasons unrelated to the actual &quot;merit&quot; of their contribution in the subject area. Individual citation choices may have ripple effects on the status of a piece of scholarship down the road. Scholarly careers can be made or broken on whether their work becomes a part of the &quot;citation cannon&quot; for a particular domain of research. 

So what should we do--if anything--to make sure that scholars get their &quot;just desserts&quot; for their work? Once we move beyond the domain of plagiarism, what kinds of rules of justice and fairness apply to citation practices?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The piece is so outrageous and craven that I think a more useful time would be spent discussing the general issues it raises about citation practices. I&#8217;m also curious what others make of the notion of someone having &#8220;intellectual property rights&#8221; to a subject. At one level, it doesn&#8217;t make much sense to me. No one really &#8220;owns&#8221; a subject.</p>

	<p>But we do often expect certain scholars to be cited on specific subjects, which strikes me as pretty much the same thing as saying they have an &#8220;intellectual property right&#8221; to the topic. And surely, sometimes, those scholars are cited for reasons unrelated to the actual &#8220;merit&#8221; of their contribution in the subject area. Individual citation choices may have ripple effects on the status of a piece of scholarship down the road. Scholarly careers can be made or broken on whether their work becomes a part of the &#8220;citation cannon&#8221; for a particular domain of research.</p>

	<p>So what should we do&#8212;if anything&#8212;to make sure that scholars get their &#8220;just desserts&#8221; for their work? Once we move beyond the domain of plagiarism, what kinds of rules of justice and fairness apply to citation practices?</p>
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		<title>By: DaveMB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284112</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveMB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284112</guid>
		<description>Rowley appears to be a co-editor-in-chief of the journal &lt;i&gt;Public Choice&lt;/i&gt;, which may mean that this piece got &quot;editing&quot; analogous to that of Peretz&#039; pieces in &lt;i&gt;The New Republic&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Rowley appears to be a co-editor-in-chief of the journal <i>Public Choice</i>, which may mean that this piece got &#8220;editing&#8221; analogous to that of Peretz&#8217; pieces in <i>The New Republic</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: monboddo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284084</link>
		<dc:creator>monboddo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284084</guid>
		<description>But, but...this would imply that someone at GMU is a careless, vindictive hack...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But, but&#8230;this would imply that someone at <span class="caps">GMU</span> is a careless, vindictive hack&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284051</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284051</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very much an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119468631/abstract?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;outsider&lt;/a&gt; as far as public choice is concerned. Still it seems to me that Rowley is not particularly notable as a contributor to the literature but rather as an academic entrepreneur, boundary rider and so on. So, this kind of exercise is less surprising than from someone with an academic reputation to defend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m very much an <a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119468631/abstract?CRETRY=1&#038;SRETRY=0" rel="nofollow">outsider</a> as far as public choice is concerned. Still it seems to me that Rowley is not particularly notable as a contributor to the literature but rather as an academic entrepreneur, boundary rider and so on. So, this kind of exercise is less surprising than from someone with an academic reputation to defend.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Dornan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-284045</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Dornan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-284045</guid>
		<description>How did that article get out--the reputation of Rowley?  Horrible to behold, even if there were some truth in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How did that article get out&#8212;the reputation of Rowley?  Horrible to behold, even if there were some truth in it.</p>
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		<title>By: temporarily anonymous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-283995</link>
		<dc:creator>temporarily anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-283995</guid>
		<description>A true wonder in the annals of bizarre, ad hominem journal articles that make everyone wonder how they got through peer review is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://labor.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/4/2/95?maxtoshow=&amp;HITS=10&amp;hits=10&amp;RESULTFORMAT=&amp;author1=french%2C+john&amp;fulltext=womack&amp;searchid=1&amp;FIRSTINDEX=0&amp;sortspec=relevance&amp;resourcetype=HWCIT&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article John French and Danny James published&lt;/a&gt; (pay-walled) a few years ago in &lt;i&gt;Labor&lt;/i&gt;[1].  It was an extended (21 page) article attacking John Womack, questioning his sanity, mocking him for his low productivity recently, and--seemingly without conscious irony--complaining that he attacked his intellectual opponents personally, rather than purely intellectually.  The content itself made it both bizarre and kind of a pleasure to read--I actually read bits of it aloud to my partner--but so too did their choice of venue (a journal overwhelmingly North Americanist in content and subscribers, and French, James, and Womack all study Latin America) and the fact that the journal then published a reply by Womack and then a counter-reply by French and James again.[2]

[1] John D. French and Daniel James, &quot;The Travails of Doing Labor History: The Restless Wanderings of John Womack Jr.,&quot; &lt;i&gt;Labor:  Studies in Working-Class History of the Americas&lt;/i&gt; 4 (summer 2007): 95-116.
[2] John Womack Jr., &quot;On Labor History, Material Relations, Labor Movements, and Strategic Positions: A Reply to French and James (as Nice and Civil as I Can Make It),&quot; &lt;i&gt;Labor: Studies in Working-Class History of the Americas&lt;/i&gt; 5 (summer 2008):  117-123 (&lt;a href=&quot;http://labor.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/5/2/117?maxtoshow=&amp;HITS=10&amp;hits=10&amp;RESULTFORMAT=&amp;author1=womack%2C+john&amp;searchid=1&amp;FIRSTINDEX=0&amp;sortspec=relevance&amp;resourcetype=HWCIT&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;not currently pay-walled&lt;/a&gt;); John D. French and Daniel James, &quot;Polemics and an &#039;Army of One&#039;:  Responding to John Womack, Jr.&quot; &lt;i&gt;Labor: Studies in Working-Class History of the Americas&lt;/i&gt; 5 (summer 2008):  125-129. &lt;a href=&quot;http://labor.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/5/2/125?maxtoshow=&amp;HITS=10&amp;hits=10&amp;RESULTFORMAT=&amp;author1=french%2C+john&amp;fulltext=womack&amp;searchid=1&amp;FIRSTINDEX=0&amp;sortspec=relevance&amp;resourcetype=HWCIT&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;(Also seemingly available to all.)&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A true wonder in the annals of bizarre, ad hominem journal articles that make everyone wonder how they got through peer review is the <a href="http://labor.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/4/2/95?maxtoshow=&#038;HITS=10&#038;hits=10&#038;RESULTFORMAT=&#038;author1=french%2C+john&#038;fulltext=womack&#038;searchid=1&#038;FIRSTINDEX=0&#038;sortspec=relevance&#038;resourcetype=HWCIT" rel="nofollow">article John French and Danny James published</a> (pay-walled) a few years ago in <i>Labor</i>[1].  It was an extended (21 page) article attacking John Womack, questioning his sanity, mocking him for his low productivity recently, and&#8212;seemingly without conscious irony&#8212;complaining that he attacked his intellectual opponents personally, rather than purely intellectually.  The content itself made it both bizarre and kind of a pleasure to read&#8212;I actually read bits of it aloud to my partner&#8212;but so too did their choice of venue (a journal overwhelmingly North Americanist in content and subscribers, and French, James, and Womack all study Latin America) and the fact that the journal then published a reply by Womack and then a counter-reply by French and James again.[2]</p>

	<p>[1] John D. French and Daniel James, &#8220;The Travails of Doing Labor History: The Restless Wanderings of John Womack Jr.,&#8221; <i>Labor:  Studies in Working-Class History of the Americas</i> 4 (summer 2007): 95-116.<br />
[2] John Womack Jr., &#8220;On Labor History, Material Relations, Labor Movements, and Strategic Positions: A Reply to French and James (as Nice and Civil as I Can Make It),&#8221; <i>Labor: Studies in Working-Class History of the Americas</i> 5 (summer 2008):  117-123 (<a href="http://labor.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/5/2/117?maxtoshow=&#038;HITS=10&#038;hits=10&#038;RESULTFORMAT=&#038;author1=womack%2C+john&#038;searchid=1&#038;FIRSTINDEX=0&#038;sortspec=relevance&#038;resourcetype=HWCIT" rel="nofollow">not currently pay-walled</a>); John D. French and Daniel James, &#8220;Polemics and an &#8216;Army of One&#8217;:  Responding to John Womack, Jr.&#8221; <i>Labor: Studies in Working-Class History of the Americas</i> 5 (summer 2008):  125-129. <a href="http://labor.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/5/2/125?maxtoshow=&#038;HITS=10&#038;hits=10&#038;RESULTFORMAT=&#038;author1=french%2C+john&#038;fulltext=womack&#038;searchid=1&#038;FIRSTINDEX=0&#038;sortspec=relevance&#038;resourcetype=HWCIT" rel="nofollow">(Also seemingly available to all.)</a></p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-283980</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 01:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-283980</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;somewhere in that narrow region where the slipshod, the haphazard and the positively eccentric intersect&lt;/i&gt;

If academics don&#039;t work out for him, he could always write speeches for Sarah Palin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>somewhere in that narrow region where the slipshod, the haphazard and the positively eccentric intersect</i></p>

	<p>If academics don&#8217;t work out for him, he could always write speeches for Sarah Palin.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad DeLong</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/07/28/anger-and-greif/comment-page-1/#comment-283975</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad DeLong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 00:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12213#comment-283975</guid>
		<description>It was amazing to see...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It was amazing to see&#8230;</p>
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