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	<title>Comments on: The Market for Predictions</title>
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	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: John L. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286987</link>
		<dc:creator>John L. Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286987</guid>
		<description>Barry @ 11: As in, a fence- citer. Ba-dum-ching!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Barry @ 11: As in, a fence- citer. Ba-dum-ching!</p>
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		<title>By: Billikin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286976</link>
		<dc:creator>Billikin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286976</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t forget the Jeanne Dixon effect. It doesn&#039;t matter whether you are right or wrong, just as long as you are confident. ;)

As for &quot;the Iraq War debate&quot; in the U. S., I missed that. Did we have one? All that happened was that the Congress officially ceded the power to declare war to the President.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Don&#8217;t forget the Jeanne Dixon effect. It doesn&#8217;t matter whether you are right or wrong, just as long as you are confident. ;)</p>

	<p>As for &#8220;the Iraq War debate&#8221; in the U. S., I missed that. Did we have one? All that happened was that the Congress officially ceded the power to declare war to the President.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286971</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286971</guid>
		<description>Insofar as Tetlock&#039;s article,  I doubt assigning precise probabilities would be particularly helpful in verifying prognostications.  

 To verify a probability distribution you need several, ideally many, samples.  In prognostication you only get one.  So if I say that a future event will occur with probability .001% and that event occurs, I can say I wasn&#039;t wrong, it just so happened that an improbable event occurred.

I suppose we might be able to use a number of wrong probability predictions to get a broad estimate on pundit accuracy, but this would be difficult because they&#039;re estimating a different distribution with each prognostication.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Insofar as Tetlock&#8217;s article,  I doubt assigning precise probabilities would be particularly helpful in verifying prognostications.</p>

	<p>To verify a probability distribution you need several, ideally many, samples.  In prognostication you only get one.  So if I say that a future event will occur with probability .001% and that event occurs, I can say I wasn&#8217;t wrong, it just so happened that an improbable event occurred.</p>

	<p>I suppose we might be able to use a number of wrong probability predictions to get a broad estimate on pundit accuracy, but this would be difficult because they&#8217;re estimating a different distribution with each prognostication.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286951</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286951</guid>
		<description>Eric, maybe the citer didn&#039;t want to take sides :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eric, maybe the citer didn&#8217;t want to take sides :)</p>
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		<title>By: Eric L.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286948</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286948</guid>
		<description>@6: Lazy citing.  Gelman and Sides, not Gelman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@6: Lazy citing.  Gelman and Sides, not Gelman.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286946</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286946</guid>
		<description>John Emerson (re - some people on the CFR)
&quot;    Lazy writing. At least twenty individuals should have been named, starting with William Kristol, James K. Glassman, and Kevin Hassett. Or you could just have written “fifty to a hundred major conservative pundits.”&quot;

How about simply &#039;the entire CFR&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Emerson (re &#8211; some people on the <span class="caps">CFR</span>)<br />
&#8221;    Lazy writing. At least twenty individuals should have been named, starting with William Kristol, James K. Glassman, and Kevin Hassett. Or you could just have written &#8220;fifty to a hundred major conservative pundits.&#8221;&#8221;</p>

	<p>How about simply &#8216;the entire <span class="caps">CFR</span>&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Ceri B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286943</link>
		<dc:creator>Ceri B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286943</guid>
		<description>BTW, I would welcome a note on the side or in any convenient-for-moderators way about what in my last post triggered a hold for moderation. I don&#039;t &lt;i&gt;see&lt;/i&gt; anything spam-like in it, but that doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;there&lt;/i&gt;. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>, I would welcome a note on the side or in any convenient-for-moderators way about what in my last post triggered a hold for moderation. I don&#8217;t <i>see</i> anything spam-like in it, but that doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t <i>there</i>. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Ceri B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286942</link>
		<dc:creator>Ceri B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286942</guid>
		<description>Because I&#039;m a hopeless geek, I was reminded both of Robert Altman&#039;s movie (and Michael Tolkin&#039;s book) &lt;i&gt;The Player&lt;/i&gt;, and Warren Ellis and John Cassaday&#039;s comic book &lt;i&gt;Planetary&lt;/i&gt;. 

From the movie: &quot;It lacked certain elements that we need to market a film successfully.&quot; &quot;What elements?&quot; &quot;Suspense, laughter, violence. Hope, heart, nudity, sex. Happy endings. Mainly happy endings.&quot;

I don&#039;t have the graphic novels to hand, but the major villain in Planetary explains that he and his associates are old, powerful, and get bored, so they&#039;re letting the heroes provide a challenge, but mustn&#039;t get to thinking that they can actually &lt;i&gt;win&lt;/i&gt;.

I think this is the sort of framework in which American punditry makes sense. It&#039;s there to entertain.  A good story needs some drama and surprises.  But people don&#039;t go to see romantic comedies and expect many potential couples to end miserably and apart, nor to action movies to see heroes suffer pointlessly and then die as villains triumph. Punditry serves various audiences that want to feel like there&#039;s a basic legitimacy and reliability in American politics, and that includes a measure of real challenge but no more than a measure. Contrarianism is most welcome to the sponsors and target audiences when it ends up reaffirming how good we&#039;ve got it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Because I&#8217;m a hopeless geek, I was reminded both of Robert Altman&#8217;s movie (and Michael Tolkin&#8217;s book) <i>The Player</i>, and Warren Ellis and John Cassaday&#8217;s comic book <i>Planetary</i>.</p>

	<p>From the movie: &#8220;It lacked certain elements that we need to market a film successfully.&#8221; &#8220;What elements?&#8221; &#8220;Suspense, laughter, violence. Hope, heart, nudity, sex. Happy endings. Mainly happy endings.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t have the graphic novels to hand, but the major villain in Planetary explains that he and his associates are old, powerful, and get bored, so they&#8217;re letting the heroes provide a challenge, but mustn&#8217;t get to thinking that they can actually <i>win</i>.</p>

	<p>I think this is the sort of framework in which American punditry makes sense. It&#8217;s there to entertain.  A good story needs some drama and surprises.  But people don&#8217;t go to see romantic comedies and expect many potential couples to end miserably and apart, nor to action movies to see heroes suffer pointlessly and then die as villains triumph. Punditry serves various audiences that want to feel like there&#8217;s a basic legitimacy and reliability in American politics, and that includes a measure of real challenge but no more than a measure. Contrarianism is most welcome to the sponsors and target audiences when it ends up reaffirming how good we&#8217;ve got it.</p>
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		<title>By: Banned commenter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286937</link>
		<dc:creator>Banned commenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 03:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286937</guid>
		<description>So once again the subject is handicapping the mean rather than policy itself: predictions rather than prescriptions, quantifications rather than values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So once again the subject is handicapping the mean rather than policy itself: predictions rather than prescriptions, quantifications rather than values.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286936</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 03:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286936</guid>
		<description>Much of  Gelman&#039;s discussion is about right, but I think he slips when he asks whethere the results were a mandate. He seems to think that a mandate is a fact which can be known, whereas to call something a &quot;mandate&quot; is to propose an interpretation of the facts, and not an analysis of the facts.  Those who declared that Obama had a mandate were proposing that Obama should be regarded as having a mandate, and they were not wrong in so proposing. They just failed, as much as anything because Obama did not want a mandate, since bipartisan futility was his goal all along. 

Immediately after the record-breakingly narrow 2000 Presidential election George Will poo-pooed the very idea of mandate and proposed that Bush act as if he had one, and Bush was very successful in doing so.  By Will&#039;s standards Obama did have a mandate, and by everyone else&#039;s standards he had a reasonable claim to having a mandate. But lo! --  the standards for mandates had miraculously changed since 2000. If Obama had gotten 60% of the votes and 99% of the electoral votes, he still wouldn&#039;t have had a mandate. 

Which would have been fine with him, since changing things was not his goal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Much of  Gelman&#8217;s discussion is about right, but I think he slips when he asks whethere the results were a mandate. He seems to think that a mandate is a fact which can be known, whereas to call something a &#8220;mandate&#8221; is to propose an interpretation of the facts, and not an analysis of the facts.  Those who declared that Obama had a mandate were proposing that Obama should be regarded as having a mandate, and they were not wrong in so proposing. They just failed, as much as anything because Obama did not want a mandate, since bipartisan futility was his goal all along.</p>

	<p>Immediately after the record-breakingly narrow 2000 Presidential election George Will poo-pooed the very idea of mandate and proposed that Bush act as if he had one, and Bush was very successful in doing so.  By Will&#8217;s standards Obama did have a mandate, and by everyone else&#8217;s standards he had a reasonable claim to having a mandate. But lo!&#8212; the standards for mandates had miraculously changed since 2000. If Obama had gotten 60% of the votes and 99% of the electoral votes, he still wouldn&#8217;t have had a mandate.</p>

	<p>Which would have been fine with him, since changing things was not his goal.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286935</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286935</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Amity Shlaes, Max Boot et al. &lt;/i&gt;

Lazy writing. At least twenty individuals should have been named, starting with William Kristol,  James K. Glassman, and Kevin Hassett. Or you could just have written &quot;fifty to a hundred major conservative pundits.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Amity Shlaes, Max Boot et al. </i></p>

	<p>Lazy writing. At least twenty individuals should have been named, starting with William Kristol,  James K. Glassman, and Kevin Hassett. Or you could just have written &#8220;fifty to a hundred major conservative pundits.&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286933</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286933</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t linked to it for the simple reason that I hadn&#039;t heard of it - awesome. I need to digest this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I hadn&#8217;t linked to it for the simple reason that I hadn&#8217;t heard of it &#8211; awesome. I need to digest this.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Swartz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286929</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Swartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286929</guid>
		<description>I think this blog post needs a link to http://wrongtomorrow.com/ -- I&#039;m frustrated that more blogs haven&#039;t been linking to it and using it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think this blog post needs a link to <a href="http://wrongtomorrow.com/" rel="nofollow">http://wrongtomorrow.com/</a>&#8212;I&#8217;m frustrated that more blogs haven&#8217;t been linking to it and using it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286928</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 23:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286928</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t part of this discussion the perennial spat between Serious People and DFHs?

There was, in fact, terrific and groundbreaking work done before the 2008 election, not least Nate Silvers 538.com, and some of the opinion poll analysis at Pollster.com.

There&#039;s a clear distinction between people like Nate and the Pollsters who may (or may not) have an identifiable sympathy towards one political wing, but who attempt to make their methodology clear and transparent, and those who are basically engaged in rhetoric and/or spin.

Silver/538&#039;s work was testable - he was putting up clearly falsifiable forecasts, and his final forecast wasn&#039;t just pulled out of the air, it was backed up by months of updated analysis and data (I especially enjoyed the field reports from Republican and Democrat campaign teams in the different states.  The enthusiasm gap was clear, but again there was no attempt that I could see to present the best of one side and the worst of the other).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Isn&#8217;t part of this discussion the perennial spat between Serious People and DFHs?</p>

	<p>There was, in fact, terrific and groundbreaking work done before the 2008 election, not least Nate Silvers 538.com, and some of the opinion poll analysis at Pollster.com.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s a clear distinction between people like Nate and the Pollsters who may (or may not) have an identifiable sympathy towards one political wing, but who attempt to make their methodology clear and transparent, and those who are basically engaged in rhetoric and/or spin.</p>

	<p>Silver/538&#8217;s work was testable &#8211; he was putting up clearly falsifiable forecasts, and his final forecast wasn&#8217;t just pulled out of the air, it was backed up by months of updated analysis and data (I especially enjoyed the field reports from Republican and Democrat campaign teams in the different states.  The enthusiasm gap was clear, but again there was no attempt that I could see to present the best of one side and the worst of the other).</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/08/25/the-market-for-predictions/comment-page-1/#comment-286925</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12684#comment-286925</guid>
		<description>When I saw the title of this post I assumed you were going to be talking about Robin Hanson&#039;s &quot;prediction markets&quot; idea. Like both Hanson and Bryan Caplan, I&#039;m in favor of betting norms as a tax on lazy punditry.

&lt;i&gt;They certainly shouldn’t challenge basic precepts of American public debate such as the awesomeness of US world leadership&lt;/i&gt;
Reminds me of Steve Walt&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/07/17/the_ten_commandments_for_ambitious_policy_wonks&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ten commandments for ambitious policy wonks&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When I saw the title of this post I assumed you were going to be talking about Robin Hanson&#8217;s &#8220;prediction markets&#8221; idea. Like both Hanson and Bryan Caplan, I&#8217;m in favor of betting norms as a tax on lazy punditry.</p>

	<p><i>They certainly shouldn&#8217;t challenge basic precepts of American public debate such as the awesomeness of US world leadership</i><br />
Reminds me of Steve Walt&#8217;s <a href="http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/07/17/the_ten_commandments_for_ambitious_policy_wonks" rel="nofollow">ten commandments for ambitious policy wonks</a>.</p>
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