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	<title>Comments on: And Again</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287972</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 20:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287972</guid>
		<description>soru, that&#039;s a fascinating generalization that I&#039;m going to need to give more thought to.

Cranky, point taken. I agree there is usefulness in seeing &lt;i&gt;the same doctor&lt;/i&gt; over and over again. That given, getting to see the same person you saw last time isn&#039;t the same thing as getting your #1 pick for doctor to serve you from some comprehensive list of practitioners. It&#039;s exactly that idea of &quot;choice&quot; that I find most weird, though I didn&#039;t successfully articulate that in the earlier comment.

I am beginning to suspect that desire for choice derives from some unspoken vague xenophobia of the form &quot;only want to get treated by white people who don&#039;t speak in unbearable accents and make me feel funny.&quot;

It never ceases to amaze me when I hear someone around here complain of having had to see &quot;an Indian doctor&quot; (with the nationality spoken exactly as I would intone the word &lt;i&gt;incompetent&lt;/i&gt;). I don&#039;t hear it so much from colleagues, but from students / people around the community / et cetera, and they invariably complain &quot;I couldn&#039;t understand a thing s/he said.&quot; By now, though, this really should have ceased to amaze me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>soru, that&#8217;s a fascinating generalization that I&#8217;m going to need to give more thought to.</p>

	<p>Cranky, point taken. I agree there is usefulness in seeing <i>the same doctor</i> over and over again. That given, getting to see the same person you saw last time isn&#8217;t the same thing as getting your #1 pick for doctor to serve you from some comprehensive list of practitioners. It&#8217;s exactly that idea of &#8220;choice&#8221; that I find most weird, though I didn&#8217;t successfully articulate that in the earlier comment.</p>

	<p>I am beginning to suspect that desire for choice derives from some unspoken vague xenophobia of the form &#8220;only want to get treated by white people who don&#8217;t speak in unbearable accents and make me feel funny.&#8221;</p>

	<p>It never ceases to amaze me when I hear someone around here complain of having had to see &#8220;an Indian doctor&#8221; (with the nationality spoken exactly as I would intone the word <i>incompetent</i>). I don&#8217;t hear it so much from colleagues, but from students / people around the community / et cetera, and they invariably complain &#8220;I couldn&#8217;t understand a thing s/he said.&#8221; By now, though, this really should have ceased to amaze me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287942</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287942</guid>
		<description>@228: Generally speaking, the stronger and nastier a political system, the more it actually imposes on people&#039;s live and forces them to do what it wants, the more vehement it&#039;s defenders get. It&#039;s basic Stockholm syndrome: you don&#039;t want to be small and weak, so just adopt the perspective of those who are screwing you, and then the more powerful they are, the better you feel.

Take an international incident where, say, some plane maybe crossed a border but noone really has solid information on what happened. It is a law of internet politics that the number of posts strongly backing the position of either side will be, adjusting for demographics, proportional to the  amount the political system of that country was reducing  life expectancy in comparison with its international peers.

You can see examples across the net  from Russia to Iran: look at the thread on this site last years war in Georgia.  If North Koreans were allowed onto the internet, every forum would be full of praise for the Dear Leader and denunciations of those attempting to undermine his rule. 

Thing is, Americans, when compared to pretty much any other first world countries, have much less personal freedom, are  much more bullied and intimidated and threatened by &lt;a href=&quot;http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011537.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; larger powers&lt;/a&gt;.  

Consequently, there is much more visible, stronger and emotional support for the american political system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@228: Generally speaking, the stronger and nastier a political system, the more it actually imposes on people&#8217;s live and forces them to do what it wants, the more vehement it&#8217;s defenders get. It&#8217;s basic Stockholm syndrome: you don&#8217;t want to be small and weak, so just adopt the perspective of those who are screwing you, and then the more powerful they are, the better you feel.</p>

	<p>Take an international incident where, say, some plane maybe crossed a border but noone really has solid information on what happened. It is a law of internet politics that the number of posts strongly backing the position of either side will be, adjusting for demographics, proportional to the  amount the political system of that country was reducing  life expectancy in comparison with its international peers.</p>

	<p>You can see examples across the net  from Russia to Iran: look at the thread on this site last years war in Georgia.  If North Koreans were allowed onto the internet, every forum would be full of praise for the Dear Leader and denunciations of those attempting to undermine his rule.</p>

	<p>Thing is, Americans, when compared to pretty much any other first world countries, have much less personal freedom, are  much more bullied and intimidated and threatened by <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011537.html" rel="nofollow"> larger powers</a>.</p>

	<p>Consequently, there is much more visible, stronger and emotional support for the american political system.</p>
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		<title>By: Cryptic Ned</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287924</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic Ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 00:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287924</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This Obama as Hitler and Death Panel stuff is seriously freaky – entertaining to be sure, compelling and fascinating that what would be the fringes of debate here is so central in your country.&lt;/i&gt;

Why isn&#039;t it central in every country?  There are certainly high percentages of credulous reactionaries/fascists in every country, and the media in most countries is run by huge corporations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>This Obama as Hitler and Death Panel stuff is seriously freaky &#8211; entertaining to be sure, compelling and fascinating that what would be the fringes of debate here is so central in your country.</i></p>

	<p>Why isn&#8217;t it central in every country?  There are certainly high percentages of credulous reactionaries/fascists in every country, and the media in most countries is run by huge corporations.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Duncan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287917</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 18:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287917</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, going from $96bn to $167bn in 12 years is a 4.72% annual growth rate. By comparison, Canada&#039;s GDP grew 5.44% ($837bn to $1580bn, IMF, April 2008) over the same period. So you&#039;re saying that medicare spending in 2008 takes up a smaller portion of GDP than it did in 1996. Sounds like a good thing to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jonathan, going from $96bn to $167bn in 12 years is a 4.72% annual growth rate. By comparison, Canada&#8217;s <span class="caps">GDP</span> grew 5.44% ($837bn to $1580bn, <span class="caps">IMF</span>, April 2008) over the same period. So you&#8217;re saying that medicare spending in 2008 takes up a smaller portion of <span class="caps">GDP</span> than it did in 1996. Sounds like a good thing to me.</p>
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		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287906</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 09:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287906</guid>
		<description>someguy (#220)and urg (#222): yup, I&#039;ll buy tax fiddles as a partial explanation - though they count against American exceptionalism, don&#039;t they?
The subthread is interesting, because based on dd&#039;s smuggled-in actual facts, so I&#039;ll try to rescue and continue it chez &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.samefacts.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mark Kleiman&lt;/a&gt;. Comments are back!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>someguy (#220)and urg (#222): yup, I&#8217;ll buy tax fiddles as a partial explanation &#8211; though they count against American exceptionalism, don&#8217;t they?<br />
The subthread is interesting, because based on dd&#8217;s smuggled-in actual facts, so I&#8217;ll try to rescue and continue it chez <a href="http://www.samefacts.com/" rel="nofollow">Mark Kleiman</a>. Comments are back!</p>
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		<title>By: Cranky Observer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287900</link>
		<dc:creator>Cranky Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 03:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287900</guid>
		<description>&gt; Doctors of a given specialty, like most service providers, are basically 
&gt; fungible, in that they are all nearly equally capable of providing the 
&gt; same thing, and are all trying to provide the same thing: treatment.
&gt; [...]
&gt;Of course, I’ve never understood the idea of having a “primary care 
&gt; physician” either—I suspect that most folks my age don’t comprehend 
&gt; this quickly-becoming-antiquated idea, by the way. You make an 
&gt; appointment to go to the clinic, whoever is on duty will be your
&gt;  physician that day. They check your charts, ask what’s up. I gather 
&gt; that some folks used to just go in to their primary care doctor
&gt;  twice a year, just because?

Um, if you are younger than 30 (35 if you are lucky) in the US or Western Europe, the odds are very good that you will experience no serious medical problem, and thus any walk-in doctor can give you equivalent care for the occasional strep throat.  Once you pass 30-35-40 and serious things start to go wrong (and you start to get symptoms of things which could be serious even though they often turn out not to be), then it helps quite a bit to have a doctor who you see regularly and who is familiar with your chart and treatments (because she wrote and ordered them, respectively).  Although I am good with masses of technical detail myself I was surprised at how much my adult medicine primary care doctor was able to remember from visit to vist and how positively it affected my care.

Cranky

Then he got sick of dealing with insurance companies and managing a small business, and went back to academic research...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>> Doctors of a given specialty, like most service providers, are basically<br />
> fungible, in that they are all nearly equally capable of providing the<br />
> same thing, and are all trying to provide the same thing: treatment.<br />
> [...]<br />
>Of course, I&#8217;ve never understood the idea of having a &#8220;primary care<br />
> physician&#8221; either&#8212;I suspect that most folks my age don&#8217;t comprehend<br />
> this quickly-becoming-antiquated idea, by the way. You make an<br />
> appointment to go to the clinic, whoever is on duty will be your<br />
>  physician that day. They check your charts, ask what&#8217;s up. I gather<br />
> that some folks used to just go in to their primary care doctor<br />
>  twice a year, just because?</p>

	<p>Um, if you are younger than 30 (35 if you are lucky) in the US or Western Europe, the odds are very good that you will experience no serious medical problem, and thus any walk-in doctor can give you equivalent care for the occasional strep throat.  Once you pass 30-35-40 and serious things start to go wrong (and you start to get symptoms of things which could be serious even though they often turn out not to be), then it helps quite a bit to have a doctor who you see regularly and who is familiar with your chart and treatments (because she wrote and ordered them, respectively).  Although I am good with masses of technical detail myself I was surprised at how much my adult medicine primary care doctor was able to remember from visit to vist and how positively it affected my care.</p>

	<p>Cranky</p>

	<p>Then he got sick of dealing with insurance companies and managing a small business, and went back to academic research&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287894</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 23:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287894</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...  she thinks there is a real possibility that the pharmaceutical industry, as presently constituted, will come up with an immortality drug in time for her to benefit from it, and reducing the industry’s profit margins will lessen or destroy that prospect. In comparison, nothing else matters at all.&lt;/i&gt;

Just noticed this. Yes, I think you have it right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;  she thinks there is a real possibility that the pharmaceutical industry, as presently constituted, will come up with an immortality drug in time for her to benefit from it, and reducing the industry&#8217;s profit margins will lessen or destroy that prospect. In comparison, nothing else matters at all.</i></p>

	<p>Just noticed this. Yes, I think you have it right.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287881</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287881</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;exchanges and/or allowing individuals and companies to purchase insurance across state lines very directly addresses such situations.&lt;/i&gt;

Unless one or two states become the regulatory equivalent of South Dakota w/r/t credit cards. Which happens quite a lot in the US. And is BCBS of State X really going to &quot;compete&quot; with BCBS of State Y?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>exchanges and/or allowing individuals and companies to purchase insurance across state lines very directly addresses such situations.</i></p>

	<p>Unless one or two states become the regulatory equivalent of South Dakota w/r/t credit cards. Which happens quite a lot in the US. And is <span class="caps">BCBS</span> of State X really going to &#8220;compete&#8221; with <span class="caps">BCBS</span> of State Y?</p>
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		<title>By: urgs</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287869</link>
		<dc:creator>urgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287869</guid>
		<description>Transfer pricing fraud (libertarianish: Tax competition) is pretty big with R&amp;D, so the numbers from the pharma companies are a bit fuzzy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Transfer pricing fraud (libertarianish: Tax competition) is pretty big with R&#038;D, so the numbers from the pharma companies are a bit fuzzy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dingbat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287848</link>
		<dc:creator>Dingbat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287848</guid>
		<description>Most of the rest of the world simply has no idea why you are getting your knickers in a knot over public health care. Works alright here in Australia, a mix of public and private. Could be better, but such is life. The rich still get better health care than the poor, which won&#039;t satisfy the ideological purists on either side but nothing ever will. 

This Obama as Hitler and Death Panel stuff is seriously freaky - entertaining to be sure, compelling and fascinating that  what would be the fringes of debate here is so central in your country. Good luck and take it easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Most of the rest of the world simply has no idea why you are getting your knickers in a knot over public health care. Works alright here in Australia, a mix of public and private. Could be better, but such is life. The rich still get better health care than the poor, which won&#8217;t satisfy the ideological purists on either side but nothing ever will.</p>

	<p>This Obama as Hitler and Death Panel stuff is seriously freaky &#8211; entertaining to be sure, compelling and fascinating that  what would be the fringes of debate here is so central in your country. Good luck and take it easy.</p>
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		<title>By: someguy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287846</link>
		<dc:creator>someguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287846</guid>
		<description>James Wimberley,

Just guessing.  Something to do with corporate tax laws in each location?  Looks like UK and US corporate rates are similar but maybe it has something to do with the details?  IE do all your R&amp;D on your US ledger and get a tax duduction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>James Wimberley,</p>

	<p>Just guessing.  Something to do with corporate tax laws in each location?  Looks like UK and US corporate rates are similar but maybe it has something to do with the details?  IE do all your R&#038;D on your US ledger and get a tax duduction.</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287840</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287840</guid>
		<description>&#039;You mean like life insurance?&#039;

Life insurance has benefits that are defined at the time of purchase, not left ultimately to the discretion of someone on a profit-oriented bonus scheme in 40 years time.  So it&#039;s more like buying a TV than it is buying health insurance.

If life insurance worked comparably to health insurance, it would be defined as &#039;we&#039;ll give your children and loved ones sufficient money to complete their education and overcome any difficulties they may suffer in consequence of you not being there for them&#039;. Where each word in the above has a footnote referring to a boilerplate definition that amounts to &#039;we&#039;ll decide what this word means when you are dead&#039;. 

Does anyone think that would work out?

I suspect the countries where private health insurance does work, it is not so much because of the detail of the law, but mainly because they are not as ideologically capitalist as the USA, don&#039;t have profit sharing schemes and stock options,  do have unions and employment law. So the profit motive isn&#039;t enough to induce managers to improve the company bottom line by denying care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;You mean like life insurance?&#8217;</p>

	<p>Life insurance has benefits that are defined at the time of purchase, not left ultimately to the discretion of someone on a profit-oriented bonus scheme in 40 years time.  So it&#8217;s more like buying a TV than it is buying health insurance.</p>

	<p>If life insurance worked comparably to health insurance, it would be defined as &#8216;we&#8217;ll give your children and loved ones sufficient money to complete their education and overcome any difficulties they may suffer in consequence of you not being there for them&#8217;. Where each word in the above has a footnote referring to a boilerplate definition that amounts to &#8216;we&#8217;ll decide what this word means when you are dead&#8217;.</p>

	<p>Does anyone think that would work out?</p>

	<p>I suspect the countries where private health insurance does work, it is not so much because of the detail of the law, but mainly because they are not as ideologically capitalist as the <span class="caps">USA</span>, don&#8217;t have profit sharing schemes and stock options,  do have unions and employment law. So the profit motive isn&#8217;t enough to induce managers to improve the company bottom line by denying care.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287831</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287831</guid>
		<description>Oh, and about those drug companies who simply must keep their profits up or else we&#039;ll all die-
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090902-707834.html

I wonder if McArdle will argue that the past deaths from Bextra were an unfortunate necessity in order to preserve Pfizer&#039;s ability to prevent untold future deaths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, and about those drug companies who simply must keep their profits up or else we&#8217;ll all die-<br />
<a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090902-707834.html" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090902-707834.html</a></p>

	<p>I wonder if McArdle will argue that the past deaths from Bextra were an unfortunate necessity in order to preserve Pfizer&#8217;s ability to prevent untold future deaths.</p>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287824</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287824</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yea if you enough extra money lying around that you can afford to buy 2 health care plans for everyone in your family.&lt;/i&gt;

It costs less to both get private health care &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; pay your taxes in Britain, than it costs to get only private health care in America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Yea if you enough extra money lying around that you can afford to buy 2 health care plans for everyone in your family.</i></p>

	<p>It costs less to both get private health care <i>and</i> pay your taxes in Britain, than it costs to get only private health care in America.</p>
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		<title>By: belle le triste</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/02/and-again/comment-page-5/#comment-287815</link>
		<dc:creator>belle le triste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12772#comment-287815</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Penis enlargement ads aren’t actually done by the insurance industry.&lt;/i&gt; (Citation needed.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Penis enlargement ads aren&#8217;t actually done by the insurance industry.</i> (Citation needed.)</p>
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