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	<title>Comments on: Goldstone</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288521</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288521</guid>
		<description>Ok, I&#039;m going to close comments on this now, because I haven&#039;t got the time to moderate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ok, I&#8217;m going to close comments on this now, because I haven&#8217;t got the time to moderate.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288520</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288520</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If his work stands on its own merits, it doesn’t matter if he believes he’s the reincarnation of Hitler sent by God to complete his work.&lt;/i&gt;

No, I wouldn&#039;t go that far; I think when you join a humanitarian organization you have to share its general goals and principles, this is a reasonable requirement. This is something they probably should ask you at the interview. But what sort of items you might collect, that seems utterly irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If his work stands on its own merits, it doesn&#8217;t matter if he believes he&#8217;s the reincarnation of Hitler sent by God to complete his work.</i></p>

	<p>No, I wouldn&#8217;t go that far; I think when you join a humanitarian organization you have to share its general goals and principles, this is a reasonable requirement. This is something they probably should ask you at the interview. But what sort of items you might collect, that seems utterly irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Substance McGravitas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288518</link>
		<dc:creator>Substance McGravitas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288518</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;After reading the Goldstone Report on human-rights abuses committed during the Gaza War (December 27, 2008–January 19, 2009), all I can say is, it’s a good thing that the United Nations wasn’t around during World War II. I can just imagine its producing a supposedly evenhanded report that condemned the Nazis for “grave” abuses such as incinerating Jews, while also condemning the Allies for their equally “grave” abuses such as fire-bombing German and Japanese cities.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Yes, Mr. Boot, it would be awful if people were to condemn incinerating civilians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>After reading the Goldstone Report on human-rights abuses committed during the Gaza War (December 27, 2008&#8211;January 19, 2009), all I can say is, it&#8217;s a good thing that the United Nations wasn&#8217;t around during World War II. I can just imagine its producing a supposedly evenhanded report that condemned the Nazis for &#8220;grave&#8221; abuses such as incinerating Jews, while also condemning the Allies for their equally &#8220;grave&#8221; abuses such as fire-bombing German and Japanese cities.</blockquote>Yes, Mr. Boot, it would be awful if people were to condemn incinerating civilians.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288517</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288517</guid>
		<description>banned commenter at 21 links to a pretty disgusting hit piece.  Or maybe the author just doesn&#039;t know anyone with a hobby?  They all look bizarre and obsessive from the outside.  It&#039;s the nature of hobbies.  FSM forbid Cobban ever has occasion to write about someone who participates in Civil War reenactments on the Confederate side.

I find it hard to believe that it&#039;s some kind of crime against humanity to think that the Nazis had cool jackets.  There are many things you can say about the Nazis, most of them (obviously) bad.  But does that extend to a moral principle that you can&#039;t even acknowledge good fashion sense if you think they had it?  That seems to verge on making the Nazis into some kind of supernatural force of pure evil -- which they decidedly were not, and IMO dehumanizing Nazis increases, not decreases, the chance of a recurrence of their atrocities.  Nazis loved their wives, walked their dogs, tickled their little brothers -- AND killed millions of people for terrible reasons.  If we can&#039;t wrap our heads around that, how will we recognize it when (not if) it comes again?

The idea of throwing Garlasco under the bus over this seems far more disturbing than any amount of collecting military memorabilia.  That really would be thoughtcrime.

P.S. Also, Henri is correct at 22 -- this is a pure ad hominem argument.  If his work stands on its own merits, it doesn&#039;t matter if he believes he&#039;s the reincarnation of Hitler sent by God to complete his work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>banned commenter at 21 links to a pretty disgusting hit piece.  Or maybe the author just doesn&#8217;t know anyone with a hobby?  They all look bizarre and obsessive from the outside.  It&#8217;s the nature of hobbies.  <span class="caps">FSM</span> forbid Cobban ever has occasion to write about someone who participates in Civil War reenactments on the Confederate side.</p>

	<p>I find it hard to believe that it&#8217;s some kind of crime against humanity to think that the Nazis had cool jackets.  There are many things you can say about the Nazis, most of them (obviously) bad.  But does that extend to a moral principle that you can&#8217;t even acknowledge good fashion sense if you think they had it?  That seems to verge on making the Nazis into some kind of supernatural force of pure evil&#8212;which they decidedly were not, and <span class="caps">IMO</span> dehumanizing Nazis increases, not decreases, the chance of a recurrence of their atrocities.  Nazis loved their wives, walked their dogs, tickled their little brothers&#8212;<span class="caps">AND</span> killed millions of people for terrible reasons.  If we can&#8217;t wrap our heads around that, how will we recognize it when (not if) it comes again?</p>

	<p>The idea of throwing Garlasco under the bus over this seems far more disturbing than any amount of collecting military memorabilia.  That really would be thoughtcrime.</p>

	<p>P.S. Also, Henri is correct at 22&#8212;this is a pure ad hominem argument.  If his work stands on its own merits, it doesn&#8217;t matter if he believes he&#8217;s the reincarnation of Hitler sent by God to complete his work.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288516</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288516</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised it took 24 hours but Max Boot now has the talking points.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/boot/96122</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m surprised it took 24 hours but Max Boot now has the talking points.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/boot/96122" rel="nofollow">http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/boot/96122</a></p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288514</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288514</guid>
		<description>I find myself unable to develop any significant rage against some military analyst at HRW collecting Nazi memorabilia. 

Is he required to be a perfect conformist? Now, that certainly sounds like a fascist sort of requirement. 

If there are any doubts, hire another expert to check his work and his qualifications, and if it&#039;s all good - fuck off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find myself unable to develop any significant rage against some military analyst at <span class="caps">HRW</span> collecting Nazi memorabilia.</p>

	<p>Is he required to be a perfect conformist? Now, that certainly sounds like a fascist sort of requirement.</p>

	<p>If there are any doubts, hire another expert to check his work and his qualifications, and if it&#8217;s all good &#8211; fuck off.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288511</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288511</guid>
		<description>Re #13, there is indeed a War on Stork, but not for Nazi memorabilia.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/76201</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #13, there is indeed a War on Stork, but not for Nazi memorabilia.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/76201" rel="nofollow">http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/76201</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joshua W. Burton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288510</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua W. Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288510</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Admittedly, if I were an officer of the Southern Poverty Law Center, I would try to keep any fascination with Confederate memorabilia to myself.&lt;/i&gt;

This analogy is either very confusing or very clever, I&#039;m not sure which.  Without raising hackles by expressing any opinion on facts in dispute, is there &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; fair interpretation under which HRW can be said to be primarily working to advance the interests of underprivileged descendants of victims of Nazi genocide, as the SPLC primarily works for underprivileged descendants of victims of Confederate slavery?

If a HRW representative were to hand out souvenir Nazi memorabilia to interviewees in Gaza, would the likely response &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; be comparable to what a civil rights lawyer would encounter distributing Confederate souvenirs to African-Americans in Neshoba County?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Admittedly, if I were an officer of the Southern Poverty Law Center, I would try to keep any fascination with Confederate memorabilia to myself.</i></p>

	<p>This analogy is either very confusing or very clever, I&#8217;m not sure which.  Without raising hackles by expressing any opinion on facts in dispute, is there <i>any</i> fair interpretation under which <span class="caps">HRW</span> can be said to be primarily working to advance the interests of underprivileged descendants of victims of Nazi genocide, as the <span class="caps">SPLC</span> primarily works for underprivileged descendants of victims of Confederate slavery?</p>

	<p>If a <span class="caps">HRW</span> representative were to hand out souvenir Nazi memorabilia to interviewees in Gaza, would the likely response <i>really</i> be comparable to what a civil rights lawyer would encounter distributing Confederate souvenirs to African-Americans in Neshoba County?</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288508</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288508</guid>
		<description>I was shocked to learn that Nazi Germany&#039;s uniforms and medals have aesthetic appeal.  I mean, once you leave aside that the Nazis actively worked for such appeal.  Cf. Sontag&#039;s remarks in her essay on &quot;Fascinating Fascism.&quot;  (Scarcely a *defense* of such appeal, but recognizes it as genuine.)

Admittedly, if I were an officer of the Southern Poverty Law Center, I would try to keep any fascination with Confederate memorabilia to myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was shocked to learn that Nazi Germany&#8217;s uniforms and medals have aesthetic appeal.  I mean, once you leave aside that the Nazis actively worked for such appeal.  Cf. Sontag&#8217;s remarks in her essay on &#8220;Fascinating Fascism.&#8221;  (Scarcely a <strong>defense</strong> of such appeal, but recognizes it as genuine.)</p>

	<p>Admittedly, if I were an officer of the Southern Poverty Law Center, I would try to keep any fascination with Confederate memorabilia to myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288503</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288503</guid>
		<description>‘Unfortunately they’ve dug up things that Garlasco really has said on chatrooms that make him a liability to HRW, hence his suspension.’

If the same standard was to be applied to what the right says - not internet chatrooms, but in print, on TV and on the radio, the right would be deprived of just about every prominent person in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Unfortunately they&#8217;ve dug up things that Garlasco really has said on chatrooms that make him a liability to <span class="caps">HRW</span>, hence his suspension.&#8217;</p>

	<p>If the same standard was to be applied to what the right says &#8211; not internet chatrooms, but in print, on TV and on the radio, the right would be deprived of just about every prominent person in it.</p>
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		<title>By: drunk robot llama with a purple mohawk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288501</link>
		<dc:creator>drunk robot llama with a purple mohawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288501</guid>
		<description>@ 10 &amp; 14 (dsquared &amp; Nadav)

&lt;i&gt;B’Tselem: ‘Look, a self-hating jew’ (btw, this term is used for gladstone as well)&lt;/i&gt;

Well, an obvious next question is how (and how effectively) they (by which I mean the Israeli government and its U.S. allies) can create the image that American Jews mostly support their positions.

My impression has been that this faction in the U.S. subjects Jews critical of Israel(i policy) to the harshest, nastiest, and maybe most effective retaliation--nastier than how they respond to other critics (no doubt it varies with what individual or organization does the retaliating, of course, but on average...). Partly I think this is because Jews can be more effective critics (accusations that the critics are motivated by anti-Semitism are less believable). And this faction seems very determined to create the impression that it has the unanimous support of American Jews--hence entities like the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.conferenceofpresidents.org/index.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; &quot;Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations&quot;&lt;/a&gt;, which published a statement calling for sanctions on Iran for its treatment of demonstrators--something that pretty much every Iranian or observer sympathetic to the reform movement agrees is a terrible idea. 

(So, one might ask, why do &quot;major American Jewish organizations&quot; oppose the Iranian reform movement? (because that is very much what CPMAJO are doing); it sounds as if they could just be neocons trying to disguise themselves as the united voice of American Jewry, but then Hillel and the Union for Reform Judaism are member organizations, so I imagine the reality is more complicated than &quot;teh neoconz!&quot;)

But maybe the more important reason is that Jewish organizations are much more able to retaliate against Jews than against non-Jews, by spreading false accusations, misquoting them, &amp;c. as Campus Watch has done to universities, because they can so effectively embarrass them within their own faith communities. 

My speculation is based on anecdotal evidence, not personal experience, I wonder if other people have heard or experienced something similar, or not, or the opposite?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@ 10 &#038; 14 (dsquared &#038; Nadav)</p>

	<p><i>B&#8217;Tselem: &#8216;Look, a self-hating jew&#8217; (btw, this term is used for gladstone as well)</i></p>

	<p>Well, an obvious next question is how (and how effectively) they (by which I mean the Israeli government and its U.S. allies) can create the image that American Jews mostly support their positions.</p>

	<p>My impression has been that this faction in the U.S. subjects Jews critical of Israel(i policy) to the harshest, nastiest, and maybe most effective retaliation&#8212;nastier than how they respond to other critics (no doubt it varies with what individual or organization does the retaliating, of course, but on average&#8230;). Partly I think this is because Jews can be more effective critics (accusations that the critics are motivated by anti-Semitism are less believable). And this faction seems very determined to create the impression that it has the unanimous support of American Jews&#8212;hence entities like the <a href="http://www.conferenceofpresidents.org/index.asp" rel="nofollow"> &#8220;Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations&#8221;</a>, which published a statement calling for sanctions on Iran for its treatment of demonstrators&#8212;something that pretty much every Iranian or observer sympathetic to the reform movement agrees is a terrible idea.</p>

	<p>(So, one might ask, why do &#8220;major American Jewish organizations&#8221; oppose the Iranian reform movement? (because that is very much what <span class="caps">CPMAJO</span> are doing); it sounds as if they could just be neocons trying to disguise themselves as the united voice of American Jewry, but then Hillel and the Union for Reform Judaism are member organizations, so I imagine the reality is more complicated than &#8220;teh neoconz!&#8221;)</p>

	<p>But maybe the more important reason is that Jewish organizations are much more able to retaliate against Jews than against non-Jews, by spreading false accusations, misquoting them, &#038;c. as Campus Watch has done to universities, because they can so effectively embarrass them within their own faith communities.</p>

	<p>My speculation is based on anecdotal evidence, not personal experience, I wonder if other people have heard or experienced something similar, or not, or the opposite?</p>
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		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288500</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 16:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288500</guid>
		<description>&#039;Unfortunately they’ve dug up things that Garlasco really has said on chatrooms that make him a liability to HRW, hence his suspension.&#039;

If organisations are going to start firing people for saying stupid things on the internet, then almost every white male aged between 16 and 50 in the  UK, North  America, Australia and New Zealand will have to be fired. Myself excepted, obviously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Unfortunately they&#8217;ve dug up things that Garlasco really has said on chatrooms that make him a liability to <span class="caps">HRW</span>, hence his suspension.&#8217;</p>

	<p>If organisations are going to start firing people for saying stupid things on the internet, then almost every white male aged between 16 and 50 in the  UK, North  America, Australia and New Zealand will have to be fired. Myself excepted, obviously.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288494</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288494</guid>
		<description>#13 I&#039;m not aware of any such story about Stork, so I think you&#039;re mistaken there. Yes, the Israeli government is waging a campaign against HRW for bad reasons. Unfortunately they&#039;ve dug up things that Garlasco really has said on chatrooms that make him a liability to HRW, hence his suspension.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#13 I&#8217;m not aware of any such story about Stork, so I think you&#8217;re mistaken there. Yes, the Israeli government is waging a campaign against <span class="caps">HRW</span> for bad reasons. Unfortunately they&#8217;ve dug up things that Garlasco really has said on chatrooms that make him a liability to <span class="caps">HRW</span>, hence his suspension.</p>
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		<title>By: Nur al-Cubicle</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288491</link>
		<dc:creator>Nur al-Cubicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288491</guid>
		<description>The story that HRW employees Marc Garlasco and Joe Stork collect Nazi memorabilia is likely part of an Israeli Foreign Ministry disinformation campaign to discredit the organization. The effort is headed by  Gerald Steinberg and relayed by Mere Rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The story that <span class="caps">HRW</span> employees Marc Garlasco and Joe Stork collect Nazi memorabilia is likely part of an Israeli Foreign Ministry disinformation campaign to discredit the organization. The effort is headed by  Gerald Steinberg and relayed by Mere Rhetoric.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/15/goldstone/comment-page-1/#comment-288490</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12983#comment-288490</guid>
		<description>No way, Disraeli was as self-loving as they come... &quot;When I want to read a novel, I write one&quot; and all that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No way, Disraeli was as self-loving as they come&#8230; &#8220;When I want to read a novel, I write one&#8221; and all that&#8230;</p>
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