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	<title>Comments on: A Citizen of Where, Exactly?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: bored observer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288795</link>
		<dc:creator>bored observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288795</guid>
		<description>&quot;Thus the Renaissance conception of humanitas had a two- fold aspect from the outset. The new interest in the human being was based both -on a revival of the classical antithesis 
between humanitas and barbartias, or feritas,  and on a survival of the mediaeval antithesis between humanitas and divinitas.  When Marsilio Ficino defines man as a &quot;rational soul participating in the intellect of God, but operating in a body,&quot; he defines him as the one being that is both autonomous and finite.  And Pico&#039;s famous  &#039;speech&#039;  &#039;On the Dignity of Man&#039; is anything but a document of paganism. Pico says that God 
placed man in the center of the universe so that he might be conscious of where he stands, and therefore free to decide &#039;where to turn.&#039;  He does not say that man is the center of the 
universe, not even in the sense commonly attributed to the classical phrase, &quot;man the measure of all things.&quot; 

It is from this ambivalent conception of humanitas that humanism was born. It is not so much a movement as an attitude which can be defined as the conviction of the dignity of 
man, based on both the insistence on human values (rationality and freedom) and the acceptance of human limitations (fallibility and frailty); from this two postulates result responsibility and tolerance. 
...The humanist, then, rejects authority. But he respects 
tradition.&quot;
Irwin Panofsky, &quot;The History of Art as a Humanistic Discipline&quot; 
---
&quot;Humanism- Most generally any philosophy concerned to emphasize human welfare and dignity, and optimistic about the powers of unaided human understanding.&quot;
Simon Blackburn, The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy.

Blackburn goes on to discuss the Renaissance, but not well.
He&#039;s wrong on the history. But then history isn&#039;t really his concern.  Panofsky knew his history, and he was a secularist.  But he was a cosmopolitan, and Blackburn is not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Thus the Renaissance conception of humanitas had a two- fold aspect from the outset. The new interest in the human being was based both -on a revival of the classical antithesis<br />
between humanitas and barbartias, or feritas,  and on a survival of the mediaeval antithesis between humanitas and divinitas.  When Marsilio Ficino defines man as a &#8220;rational soul participating in the intellect of God, but operating in a body,&#8221; he defines him as the one being that is both autonomous and finite.  And Pico&#8217;s famous  &#8216;speech&#8217;  &#8216;On the Dignity of Man&#8217; is anything but a document of paganism. Pico says that God<br />
placed man in the center of the universe so that he might be conscious of where he stands, and therefore free to decide &#8216;where to turn.&#8217;  He does not say that man is the center of the<br />
universe, not even in the sense commonly attributed to the classical phrase, &#8220;man the measure of all things.&#8221;</p>

	<p>It is from this ambivalent conception of humanitas that humanism was born. It is not so much a movement as an attitude which can be defined as the conviction of the dignity of<br />
man, based on both the insistence on human values (rationality and freedom) and the acceptance of human limitations (fallibility and frailty); from this two postulates result responsibility and tolerance.<br />
&#8230;The humanist, then, rejects authority. But he respects<br />
tradition.&#8221;<br />
Irwin Panofsky, &#8220;The History of Art as a Humanistic Discipline&#8221;&#8212;-<br />
&#8220;Humanism- Most generally any philosophy concerned to emphasize human welfare and dignity, and optimistic about the powers of unaided human understanding.&#8221;<br />
Simon Blackburn, The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy.</p>

	<p>Blackburn goes on to discuss the Renaissance, but not well.<br />
He&#8217;s wrong on the history. But then history isn&#8217;t really his concern.  Panofsky knew his history, and he was a secularist.  But he was a cosmopolitan, and Blackburn is not.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288731</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 02:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288731</guid>
		<description>Re that McArdle post. Yes, I found the fact that she pretends I&#039;ve just made my point, rather than her unaccountably ignoring it up to this point ... but never mind. Had I bothered to respond to her post I would have pointed out that she is setting the bar too high. 

&quot;Maybe you think this can change. Great! Build the institutions to do it ... Here&#039;s the thing: you have to do it before you dismantle the old system. Not after.&quot;

She says she wants more &#039;proof of concept&#039;. But she is setting the bar impossibly high. There is plenty of proof of concept of government-provided healthcare/insurance schemes working tolerably well. There is plenty of proof of concept of government funding research. What McArdle is worried about - she says this many times - is that government will crowd out private actors in a global sense. And that after that happens, bad stuff will happen (allegedly). &quot;I think that any program enacted now is likely to be the tipping point - once the government controls more than 50% of the health care system (it&#039;s over 45% now), it crowds out private health insurance for most people.&quot; But, for proof of concept purposes, we are now in a Catch-22. We are obliged to keep the private system completely up and running, for safety purposes, while completely shutting it down, for test purposes. McArdle expressly demands both. That is, how can we possibly have to systems up and running together, both actually handling more than 50% of the populations health care needs? 

Of course, if there really were some reason to suspect strongly that the results of reform will be irreparably awful, it might be best to respond to this Catch-22 by standing pat. But McArdle hasn&#039;t produced any reasons of this sort. The sorts of things she is most worried about - namely, long-term marginal costs associated with decline in r&amp;d - don&#039;t really sound like the sorts of problems that would be unfixable, in the event,. In any case, she presents this Catch-22, not as a Catch-22, but as if it were sober counsel of incrementalism. Why not take safe, small steps? Testing as we go? But, to repeat, this impossibly high bar she is setting could never be advice to take little safe steps.

So that&#039;s it for McArdle, as far as I am concerned. Back to cosmopolitanism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re that McArdle post. Yes, I found the fact that she pretends I&#8217;ve just made my point, rather than her unaccountably ignoring it up to this point &#8230; but never mind. Had I bothered to respond to her post I would have pointed out that she is setting the bar too high.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Maybe you think this can change. Great! Build the institutions to do it &#8230; Here&#8217;s the thing: you have to do it before you dismantle the old system. Not after.&#8221;</p>

	<p>She says she wants more &#8216;proof of concept&#8217;. But she is setting the bar impossibly high. There is plenty of proof of concept of government-provided healthcare/insurance schemes working tolerably well. There is plenty of proof of concept of government funding research. What McArdle is worried about &#8211; she says this many times &#8211; is that government will crowd out private actors in a global sense. And that after that happens, bad stuff will happen (allegedly). &#8220;I think that any program enacted now is likely to be the tipping point &#8211; once the government controls more than 50% of the health care system (it&#8217;s over 45% now), it crowds out private health insurance for most people.&#8221; But, for proof of concept purposes, we are now in a Catch-22. We are obliged to keep the private system completely up and running, for safety purposes, while completely shutting it down, for test purposes. McArdle expressly demands both. That is, how can we possibly have to systems up and running together, both actually handling more than 50% of the populations health care needs?</p>

	<p>Of course, if there really were some reason to suspect strongly that the results of reform will be irreparably awful, it might be best to respond to this Catch-22 by standing pat. But McArdle hasn&#8217;t produced any reasons of this sort. The sorts of things she is most worried about &#8211; namely, long-term marginal costs associated with decline in r&#038;d &#8211; don&#8217;t really sound like the sorts of problems that would be unfixable, in the event,. In any case, she presents this Catch-22, not as a Catch-22, but as if it were sober counsel of incrementalism. Why not take safe, small steps? Testing as we go? But, to repeat, this impossibly high bar she is setting could never be advice to take little safe steps.</p>

	<p>So that&#8217;s it for McArdle, as far as I am concerned. Back to cosmopolitanism.</p>
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		<title>By: nnyhav</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288727</link>
		<dc:creator>nnyhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288727</guid>
		<description>Thought maybe you missed this:
http://www.jehsmith.com/1/2009/09/thursday-translation-3-1.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thought maybe you missed this:<br />
<a href="http://www.jehsmith.com/1/2009/09/thursday-translation-3-1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.jehsmith.com/1/2009/09/thursday-translation-3-1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick C</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288715</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288715</guid>
		<description>Hey Holbo! 

Mcardle responded to your claim about the fungibility of government R&amp;D and private R&amp;D.   I want to hear what you have to say.  

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/09/the_governments_role_in_rd.php

p.s. For some reason, she acts like you just made this claim, rather than admitting that you&#039;ve been making this claim from the beginning and she&#039;s just been dropping the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey Holbo!</p>

	<p>Mcardle responded to your claim about the fungibility of government R&#038;D and private R&#038;D.   I want to hear what you have to say.</p>

	<p><a href="http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/09/the_governments_role_in_rd.php" rel="nofollow">http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/09/the_governments_role_in_rd.php</a></p>

	<p>p.s. For some reason, she acts like you just made this claim, rather than admitting that you&#8217;ve been making this claim from the beginning and she&#8217;s just been dropping the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene O'Grady</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288700</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene O'Grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288700</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not as significant as may seem that all of our ideas are either obvious or wrong.  Given that scholars more learned than I have worked these passages over and over, it is also the case that most of them were heavily under the influence of (for example) the ideals of the Wilhelmine state and the contemporary Protestant establishment or the sort of League of Nations liberalism we see in Gilbert Murray and once well-known English books on Alexander.  (Many of these scholars are people who should nevertheless be respected.)

So if we work our less than original ideas out without the overlay of unconscious ideas of the past (even if we import our own prejudices) we may be getting somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s not as significant as may seem that all of our ideas are either obvious or wrong.  Given that scholars more learned than I have worked these passages over and over, it is also the case that most of them were heavily under the influence of (for example) the ideals of the Wilhelmine state and the contemporary Protestant establishment or the sort of League of Nations liberalism we see in Gilbert Murray and once well-known English books on Alexander.  (Many of these scholars are people who should nevertheless be respected.)</p>

	<p>So if we work our less than original ideas out without the overlay of unconscious ideas of the past (even if we import our own prejudices) we may be getting somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: bored observer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288695</link>
		<dc:creator>bored observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288695</guid>
		<description>Novelists have a deep personal investment in their own fabrications, their metaphysical ordering of the world, but argue with each other mostly about structure.  Ask an anthro how many cultures preface their fables with variations on &quot;These lies which are of course true&quot;  or &quot;These things which both did and did not happen.&quot;
Which doesn&#039;t mean the The Quiet American has no value as an objective assessment of American liberalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Novelists have a deep personal investment in their own fabrications, their metaphysical ordering of the world, but argue with each other mostly about structure.  Ask an anthro how many cultures preface their fables with variations on &#8220;These lies which are of course true&#8221;  or &#8220;These things which both did and did not happen.&#8221;<br />
Which doesn&#8217;t mean the The Quiet American has no value as an objective assessment of American liberalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Sage Ross</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288694</link>
		<dc:creator>Sage Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288694</guid>
		<description>Re: your joke, I&#039;m reminded of the &lt;i&gt;xkcd&lt;/i&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://xkcd.com/256/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;map of online communities&lt;/a&gt;, for which the mouseover text says &quot;I&#039;m waiting for the day when, if you tell someone &#039;I&#039;m from the Internet&#039;, instead of laughing they just ask &#039;oh, what part?&#039;&quot;

The Internet, of course, is where the ideologies of cosmpolitanism, world citizenship, utopianism, and the shirking of immediate responsibilities with the excuse of abstract ones all meet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: your joke, I&#8217;m reminded of the <i>xkcd</i> <a href="http://xkcd.com/256/" rel="nofollow">map of online communities</a>, for which the mouseover text says &#8220;I&#8217;m waiting for the day when, if you tell someone &#8216;I&#8217;m from the Internet&#8217;, instead of laughing they just ask &#8216;oh, what part?&#8217;&#8221;</p>

	<p>The Internet, of course, is where the ideologies of cosmpolitanism, world citizenship, utopianism, and the shirking of immediate responsibilities with the excuse of abstract ones all meet.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288688</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288688</guid>
		<description>Hey that&#039;s funny. Belle and I actually know Anthony pretty well, from back in Berkeley. I&#039;ll try to get hold of his piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey that&#8217;s funny. Belle and I actually know Anthony pretty well, from back in Berkeley. I&#8217;ll try to get hold of his piece.</p>
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		<title>By: nick.t.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288684</link>
		<dc:creator>nick.t.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288684</guid>
		<description>John, well, yes and no. The problem in all of this  is that you are more or less arguing from intuition, rather than looking at actual usage, which would be decisive.  A.A. Long has an article on &quot;The concept of the cosmopolitan in Greek and Roman thought&quot; in the summer 2008 issue of Daedalus, pp. 50-8 (doi:10.1162/daed.2008.137.3.50) if you are interested in researching this further. Perhaps a better translation of kosmopolites would be &quot;citizen without borders&quot; if you want to capture the sense of shock at the paradox of being a citizen of, in some sense, everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, well, yes and no. The problem in all of this  is that you are more or less arguing from intuition, rather than looking at actual usage, which would be decisive.  A.A. Long has an article on &#8220;The concept of the cosmopolitan in Greek and Roman thought&#8221; in the summer 2008 issue of Daedalus, pp. 50-8 (doi:10.1162/daed.2008.137.3.50) if you are interested in researching this further. Perhaps a better translation of kosmopolites would be &#8220;citizen without borders&#8221; if you want to capture the sense of shock at the paradox of being a citizen of, in some sense, everywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288680</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288680</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Trying to have faith in absolutely nothing is hard work.&lt;/i&gt;

I suppose it makes one rather &lt;b&gt;sleepy&lt;/b&gt;, wouldn&#039;t you say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Trying to have faith in absolutely nothing is hard work.</i></p>

	<p>I suppose it makes one rather <b>sleepy</b>, wouldn&#8217;t you say?</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288672</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288672</guid>
		<description>CDR - compulsive pleasanterie disorder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">CDR </span>- compulsive pleasanterie disorder.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288668</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288668</guid>
		<description>Almost no one EVER believed in God? Then why didn&#039;t all those heretics change their minds before they got burned?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Almost no one <span class="caps">EVER</span> believed in God? Then why didn&#8217;t all those heretics change their minds before they got burned?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288667</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288667</guid>
		<description>I think John H makes an accute point which is somewhat lost in the compulsive pleasanteries of people having studied Greek and now, too quickly for their own tastes, turning old.

The only love Diogenes needed to have was for a good order of things. That doesn&#039;t imply there to be a need of one type of order, nor one care-taker of that order. In fact - the current common sense use of &quot;cosmopolitan&quot; can only with a stretch-that-tears-the-fabric be interpreted into the best-world-order category (or into utopianism) for instance. It&#039;s the modesty of Humean moral thinking (&amp; it&#039;s absoluteness of rule) in early poetry &amp; in common sense.

I would doubt that truely cosmopolitan people would have a place for the idea that all people, in a literal sense, should be governed in the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think John H makes an accute point which is somewhat lost in the compulsive pleasanteries of people having studied Greek and now, too quickly for their own tastes, turning old.</p>

	<p>The only love Diogenes needed to have was for a good order of things. That doesn&#8217;t imply there to be a need of one type of order, nor one care-taker of that order. In fact &#8211; the current common sense use of &#8220;cosmopolitan&#8221; can only with a stretch-that-tears-the-fabric be interpreted into the best-world-order category (or into utopianism) for instance. It&#8217;s the modesty of Humean moral thinking (&#038; it&#8217;s absoluteness of rule) in early poetry &#038; in common sense.</p>

	<p>I would doubt that truely cosmopolitan people would have a place for the idea that all people, in a literal sense, should be governed in the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: john c. halasz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288665</link>
		<dc:creator>john c. halasz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 06:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288665</guid>
		<description>Diogenes of Sinope was a Kynic, though probably not the first as he seems to have had a prior &quot;master&quot; , and resident alien in Athens. The stories about him are collected in Diogenes Laertes; there were apparently lost writings, but likely they contained the same sort of gestural philosophizing as the legendary stories, which have ironic and satiric import. Thus, &quot;citizen of the cosmos&quot; was a deliberate blasphemy against Greek political religion. &quot;Citizen of the natural order&quot; might be a rough translation, which would be felt as paradoxical. It&#039;s of a piece with telling Alexander to stop blocking his sun, dropping of a plucked chicken at the Academy upon hearing that Plato had defined &quot;man&quot; as a featherless biped, pulling out his wang and masterbating in the midst of an earnest discussion about eros with Academicians, etc. The whole point was to demonstrate philosophical self-sufficiency as a way of life on $5 a day so to speak, while deflating the pretensions of Platonic speculative theory. The most famous story of Diogenes walking in daylight with a lantern &quot;looking for an honest man&quot; is a bowdlerization. Diogenes, as well-known man-about-town, a &quot;character&quot;, walked through the agora one day with a lantern held high, knowing that everyone would ask him, &quot;Diogenes, what are you doing?&quot; &quot;Looking for people&quot;, he would reply. I.e. it&#039;s a satire on the Platonic transcendence to the natural light of reason, symbolized by the sun, and its alleged humanizing effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Diogenes of Sinope was a Kynic, though probably not the first as he seems to have had a prior &#8220;master&#8221; , and resident alien in Athens. The stories about him are collected in Diogenes Laertes; there were apparently lost writings, but likely they contained the same sort of gestural philosophizing as the legendary stories, which have ironic and satiric import. Thus, &#8220;citizen of the cosmos&#8221; was a deliberate blasphemy against Greek political religion. &#8220;Citizen of the natural order&#8221; might be a rough translation, which would be felt as paradoxical. It&#8217;s of a piece with telling Alexander to stop blocking his sun, dropping of a plucked chicken at the Academy upon hearing that Plato had defined &#8220;man&#8221; as a featherless biped, pulling out his wang and masterbating in the midst of an earnest discussion about eros with Academicians, etc. The whole point was to demonstrate philosophical self-sufficiency as a way of life on $5 a day so to speak, while deflating the pretensions of Platonic speculative theory. The most famous story of Diogenes walking in daylight with a lantern &#8220;looking for an honest man&#8221; is a bowdlerization. Diogenes, as well-known man-about-town, a &#8220;character&#8221;, walked through the agora one day with a lantern held high, knowing that everyone would ask him, &#8220;Diogenes, what are you doing?&#8221; &#8220;Looking for people&#8221;, he would reply. I.e. it&#8217;s a satire on the Platonic transcendence to the natural light of reason, symbolized by the sun, and its alleged humanizing effect.</p>
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		<title>By: bored observer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/17/a-citizen-of-where-exactly/comment-page-1/#comment-288664</link>
		<dc:creator>bored observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 05:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=12997#comment-288664</guid>
		<description>The obvious point is that for both people in that marriage god as some verifiable entity is irrelevant. Their preoccupations are with pattern and continuity across generations. Culture. 
But I&#039;m not going to be risk my friendship to argue the point. 
Almost no one believes in god, now or ever. They want to believe, or maybe they believe in the church, but that&#039;s not the same thing.   And most secularists find some fiction to believe in.  Trying to have faith in absolutely nothing is hard work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The obvious point is that for both people in that marriage god as some verifiable entity is irrelevant. Their preoccupations are with pattern and continuity across generations. Culture.<br />
But I&#8217;m not going to be risk my friendship to argue the point.<br />
Almost no one believes in god, now or ever. They want to believe, or maybe they believe in the church, but that&#8217;s not the same thing.   And most secularists find some fiction to believe in.  Trying to have faith in absolutely nothing is hard work.</p>
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