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	<title>Comments on: One doesn&#8217;t fire a professor like this</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Prog Gold &#187; Tracking, with closeups (1): Iran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289607</link>
		<dc:creator>Prog Gold &#187; Tracking, with closeups (1): Iran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289607</guid>
		<description>[...] on a semi-related topic Ingrid Robeyns on the firing of Tariq Ramadan from the university of Rotterdam for having a shown on the Iranian PressTV.  September 26th, 2009 &#124; Category: US Foreign Policy, War [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] on a semi-related topic Ingrid Robeyns on the firing of Tariq Ramadan from the university of Rotterdam for having a shown on the Iranian PressTV.  September 26th, 2009 | Category: <span class="caps">US </span>Foreign Policy, War [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289605</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289605</guid>
		<description>No, it wouldn&#039;t just like speech of The Voice of Free Speech fits very well but anybody&#039;s free speech except that if Wilders.

(yup, you can get annoyed by Wilders and Ramadan at the same time, in fact it&#039;s a more natural position as they basically give the some story with other main characters)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, it wouldn&#8217;t just like speech of The Voice of Free Speech fits very well but anybody&#8217;s free speech except that if Wilders.</p>

	<p>(yup, you can get annoyed by Wilders and Ramadan at the same time, in fact it&#8217;s a more natural position as they basically give the some story with other main characters)</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289602</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289602</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m sorry to say that the whole line of ‘prosecuting independent-minded muslims’ has a distinct Wildersian touch to it.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t think independent-mindedness would fit very well with being an employee of the international propaganda arm of the Islamic Republic of Iran.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I&#8217;m sorry to say that the whole line of &#8216;prosecuting independent-minded muslims&#8217; has a distinct Wildersian touch to it.</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think independent-mindedness would fit very well with being an employee of the international propaganda arm of the Islamic Republic of Iran.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289577</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289577</guid>
		<description>Well Henri, on the technicality he had a duty to inform them of his new job under his contract - and it is not a mere formalism, such contracts are drawn up so as to avoid precisely this type of conflicts (it is fine to be independent from A, but less fine if one uses that independence to be a dependendant of B).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well Henri, on the technicality he had a duty to inform them of his new job under his contract &#8211; and it is not a mere formalism, such contracts are drawn up so as to avoid precisely this type of conflicts (it is fine to be independent from A, but less fine if one uses that independence to be a dependendant of B).</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289500</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289500</guid>
		<description>the answer to that question, &lt;i&gt;as far as I know,&lt;/i&gt; is No, since he did not work for Press TV in 2006. He started working for Press TV less than a year ago, and did not first ask for permission at the University to do so. 

Of course, I would absolutely agree that if people tell significant lies when they are hired, that&#039;s a good enough reason to fire them on the spot. But that argument has not been made by anyone in this case, as far as I know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>the answer to that question, <i>as far as I know,</i> is No, since he did not work for Press TV in 2006. He started working for Press TV less than a year ago, and did not first ask for permission at the University to do so.</p>

	<p>Of course, I would absolutely agree that if people tell significant lies when they are hired, that&#8217;s a good enough reason to fire them on the spot. But that argument has not been made by anyone in this case, as far as I know.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289499</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289499</guid>
		<description>Well, my only question is whether Steve Fuller @1 has a point; in a nutshell: did Ramadan lie, deliberately lie in his application? Because that would be, it seems to me, in this situation the only legitimate reason for his dismissal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, my only question is whether Steve Fuller @1 has a point; in a nutshell: did Ramadan lie, deliberately lie in his application? Because that would be, it seems to me, in this situation the only legitimate reason for his dismissal.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289495</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289495</guid>
		<description>Hmm, Ingrid, I can see where you&#039;re coming from in your defense of independence but your argument rests on a bit of a technicality. Surely the PressTV thing is but an end of a longer story - although a telling one seen his defense is based on the Western value to be able to speak one&#039;s mind regardless of employer of government.

I&#039;m sorry to say that the whole line of &#039;prosecuting independent-minded muslims&#039; has a distinct Wildersian touch to it. 

And as to the technicality being used to end a marriage - where a partner was presented in a light perhaps a tad different from the reality presented after the vows - there are to him abundant possibilities of courts where to put his challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm, Ingrid, I can see where you&#8217;re coming from in your defense of independence but your argument rests on a bit of a technicality. Surely the PressTV thing is but an end of a longer story &#8211; although a telling one seen his defense is based on the Western value to be able to speak one&#8217;s mind regardless of employer of government.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m sorry to say that the whole line of &#8216;prosecuting independent-minded muslims&#8217; has a distinct Wildersian touch to it.</p>

	<p>And as to the technicality being used to end a marriage &#8211; where a partner was presented in a light perhaps a tad different from the reality presented after the vows &#8211; there are to him abundant possibilities of courts where to put his challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289494</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289494</guid>
		<description>aha, sorry, I had misunderstood your question/point. Well, this issue of violating disclosure policies was brought up in the open debate that was held at the university (of which the NOVA newsshow to which I inserted a link gives a few brief impressions in the first seven minutes). In that public debate the issue of these disclosure policies got a quite prominent airing, and for understandable reasons: the University feels that Ramadan should have explicitely asked the Erasmus University for permission to work for Press TV, whereas Ramadan feels that this is an unacceptable demand on him - he is not making other people decide what he can and cannot do. And there the university and Ramadan have a fundamental disagreement on what the reasonable constraints are that a university can put on the other affiliations of a professor, including for a nonremunerated guestprofessor. 

In fact, the issue of not declaring that he worked for Press TV has been addressed in another &quot;interview published by NOVA&quot;:http://www.novatv.nl/page/detail/uitzendingen/7182/Tariq+Ramadan+verbolgen+over+ontslag# boradcasted on August 18th - very well worth looking at if you&#039;re intersted in this affair (the first 2:30 minutes are in Dutch, but then there is the interview with Ramadan in English - thank Goodness we don&#039;t dub in this country! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>aha, sorry, I had misunderstood your question/point. Well, this issue of violating disclosure policies was brought up in the open debate that was held at the university (of which the <span class="caps">NOVA</span> newsshow to which I inserted a link gives a few brief impressions in the first seven minutes). In that public debate the issue of these disclosure policies got a quite prominent airing, and for understandable reasons: the University feels that Ramadan should have explicitely asked the Erasmus University for permission to work for Press TV, whereas Ramadan feels that this is an unacceptable demand on him &#8211; he is not making other people decide what he can and cannot do. And there the university and Ramadan have a fundamental disagreement on what the reasonable constraints are that a university can put on the other affiliations of a professor, including for a nonremunerated guestprofessor.</p>

	<p>In fact, the issue of not declaring that he worked for Press TV has been addressed in another <a href="<a" title="">interview published by <span class="caps">NOVA</span></a> href=&#8221;http://www.novatv.nl/page/detail/uitzendingen/7182/Tariq+Ramadan+verbolgen+over+ontslag#&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://www.novatv.nl/page/detail/uitzendingen/7182/Tariq+Ramadan+verbolgen+over+ontslag# boradcasted on August 18th &#8211; very well worth looking at if you&#8217;re intersted in this affair (the first 2:30 minutes are in Dutch, but then there is the interview with Ramadan in English &#8211; thank Goodness we don&#8217;t dub in this country! ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289492</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289492</guid>
		<description>@3: sure, I understand that there are policies. It&#039;s just that, after googling and reading a few articles on the subject, I don&#039;t see any allegations of him violating these disclosure policies. Except in this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@3: sure, I understand that there are policies. It&#8217;s just that, after googling and reading a few articles on the subject, I don&#8217;t see any allegations of him violating these disclosure policies. Except in this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Malaclypse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289488</link>
		<dc:creator>Malaclypse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289488</guid>
		<description>Thank God John Yoo is safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thank God John Yoo is safe.</p>
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		<title>By: otto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289470</link>
		<dc:creator>otto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289470</guid>
		<description>So my instinct is that 1. if the university job was thrown in with the political consulting, there should be no surprise or complaint if it was thrown out with end of the political consulting. That does not seem to be the justification for throwing it out, however. 2. Leaving aside the question of involvement with PressTV or similar, it should be entirely open to a university professor to publish a defence of the legitimacy of the Iranian regime much more full-throatedly than Ramadan seems to have done, just as it should have been possible to publish a defence of apartheid South Africa way back when and keep one&#039;s academic job. That&#039;s what opinion pluralism is all about: the right to actively argue for the legitimacy of many politics and policies which the current establishment thinks are illegitimate. Whether anyone is persuaded or not is something else entirely, although I&#039;ve often found that full-throated attempts to &#039;defend the indefensible&#039; both produce new information and help me identify more precisely what is indefensible about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So my instinct is that 1. if the university job was thrown in with the political consulting, there should be no surprise or complaint if it was thrown out with end of the political consulting. That does not seem to be the justification for throwing it out, however. 2. Leaving aside the question of involvement with PressTV or similar, it should be entirely open to a university professor to publish a defence of the legitimacy of the Iranian regime much more full-throatedly than Ramadan seems to have done, just as it should have been possible to publish a defence of apartheid South Africa way back when and keep one&#8217;s academic job. That&#8217;s what opinion pluralism is all about: the right to actively argue for the legitimacy of many politics and policies which the current establishment thinks are illegitimate. Whether anyone is persuaded or not is something else entirely, although I&#8217;ve often found that full-throated attempts to &#8216;defend the indefensible&#8217; both produce new information and help me identify more precisely what is indefensible about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Witt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289465</link>
		<dc:creator>Witt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289465</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t want to go into the firing by the City Council. Frankly, he was appointed on political grounds, so no-one should be surprised that he was fired on political grounds.&lt;/i&gt;

Exactly. 

&lt;i&gt;The firing of Ramadan by the City Council is a different matter than the firing of Ramadan by the University, and I want to focus here on the latter. &lt;b&gt;As far as I am concerned&lt;/b&gt;, the firing by the University is an independent matter. The university authorities could have kept him even if the City council fired him. But they decided not to do so. &lt;/i&gt;

From my U.S., non-academic perspective, this is a scrupulously honest and probably theoretically correct way to frame the argument, but practically speaking, so unrealistic as to be almost impossible to believe. 

A political appointee gets fired with a great deal of fanfare over a topic that (for better or worse) is currently occasioning a lot of handwringing* in public discussion. Why would he &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; also get fired from his tenuously-attached university job? 

It seems trivially obvious -- at least in my experience of universities&#039; fear of controversy -- that they would fire somebody who was involved in this flavor of controversy  &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; who doesn&#039;t have any kind of protected status, and doesn&#039;t seem to be solidly established (big research lab, lots of grants, long history of popularity among students and colleagues, whatever). At least in my observation in the US, universities are immensely more comfortable with certain kinds of controversies than with others. Picking a giant public fight with your country&#039;s governing politicians about an international flashpoint -- not the kind of controversy they want to stir up.

I apologize if this is derailing the post; I actually do think that the logic of your arguments makes sense. If I believed that the university&#039;s two public justifications (as recounted in your post) were the reasons, I&#039;d agree with your assessment. But I don&#039;t believe that the p.r. spin from the university is true -- not even if they have convinced themselves that it is. 

*I am not meaning to for a second trivialize the situation in Iran; I&#039;m just noting that the US media and public opinion have strong, if underinformed opinions about Iran in a way that they emphatically don&#039;t about a host of other international conflicts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I don&#8217;t want to go into the firing by the City Council. Frankly, he was appointed on political grounds, so no-one should be surprised that he was fired on political grounds.</i></p>

	<p>Exactly.</p>

	<p><i>The firing of Ramadan by the City Council is a different matter than the firing of Ramadan by the University, and I want to focus here on the latter. <b>As far as I am concerned</b>, the firing by the University is an independent matter. The university authorities could have kept him even if the City council fired him. But they decided not to do so. </i></p>

	<p>From my U.S., non-academic perspective, this is a scrupulously honest and probably theoretically correct way to frame the argument, but practically speaking, so unrealistic as to be almost impossible to believe.</p>

	<p>A political appointee gets fired with a great deal of fanfare over a topic that (for better or worse) is currently occasioning a lot of handwringing* in public discussion. Why would he <i>not</i> also get fired from his tenuously-attached university job?</p>

	<p>It seems trivially obvious&#8212;at least in my experience of universities&#8217; fear of controversy&#8212;that they would fire somebody who was involved in this flavor of controversy  <i>and</i> who doesn&#8217;t have any kind of protected status, and doesn&#8217;t seem to be solidly established (big research lab, lots of grants, long history of popularity among students and colleagues, whatever). At least in my observation in the US, universities are immensely more comfortable with certain kinds of controversies than with others. Picking a giant public fight with your country&#8217;s governing politicians about an international flashpoint&#8212;not the kind of controversy they want to stir up.</p>

	<p>I apologize if this is derailing the post; I actually do think that the logic of your arguments makes sense. If I believed that the university&#8217;s two public justifications (as recounted in your post) were the reasons, I&#8217;d agree with your assessment. But I don&#8217;t believe that the p.r. spin from the university is true&#8212;not even if they have convinced themselves that it is.</p>

	<p>*I am not meaning to for a second trivialize the situation in Iran; I&#8217;m just noting that the US media and public opinion have strong, if underinformed opinions about Iran in a way that they emphatically don&#8217;t about a host of other international conflicts.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289463</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289463</guid>
		<description>Henri, I looked it up and here it is:
http://www.eur.nl/english/staff/hrmpolicy/side_positions_regulation/
It is part of the Collective Labour Agreement of ALL Dutch Universities, so other Dutch-based CT readers will recognise this (&#039;regeling nevefuncties en nevenactiviteiten&#039;). Though I should say that the practice of how seriously one takes this regulation differs drastically from university to university and from faculty to faculty. 

I know that I mentioned, when I started working at the EUR, that I blog at CT :-) (which, I&#039;m happy to say, was (so far!!) not disapproved). 

The typical things that one would have to disclose are consultancy jobs, political mandates, active membership of lobby or pressure grops, writing on a regular and paid basis for a magazine or newspaper, etc.  One does not have to disclose everything that falls into the category of &#039;hobbies&#039;. The deans are responsible for deciding on borderline cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henri, I looked it up and here it is:<br />
<a href="http://www.eur.nl/english/staff/hrmpolicy/side_positions_regulation/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eur.nl/english/staff/hrmpolicy/side_positions_regulation/</a><br />
It is part of the Collective Labour Agreement of <span class="caps">ALL </span>Dutch Universities, so other Dutch-based CT readers will recognise this (&#8216;regeling nevefuncties en nevenactiviteiten&#8217;). Though I should say that the practice of how seriously one takes this regulation differs drastically from university to university and from faculty to faculty.</p>

	<p>I know that I mentioned, when I started working at the <span class="caps">EUR</span>, that I blog at <span class="caps">CT </span>:-) (which, I&#8217;m happy to say, was (so far!!) not disapproved).</p>

	<p>The typical things that one would have to disclose are consultancy jobs, political mandates, active membership of lobby or pressure grops, writing on a regular and paid basis for a magazine or newspaper, etc.  One does not have to disclose everything that falls into the category of &#8216;hobbies&#8217;. The deans are responsible for deciding on borderline cases.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289457</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289457</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s nothing &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&amp;storycode=407986&amp;c=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (for example) about disclosure of public activities; and without it this really does sound like a mccarthyist witch-hunt. Ingrid, could you post a link to an article where the non-disclosure argument is discussed, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s nothing <a href="http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&#038;storycode=407986&#038;c=1" rel="nofollow">here</a> (for example) about disclosure of public activities; and without it this really does sound like a mccarthyist witch-hunt. Ingrid, could you post a link to an article where the non-disclosure argument is discussed, please.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Fuller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/09/27/one-doesnt-fire-a-professor-like-this/comment-page-1/#comment-289443</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13094#comment-289443</guid>
		<description>I agree with Ingrid&#039;s analysis 100%.  The only way Erasmus can assure credibility in this matter would be through a demonstration that it has applied the external income principle to guest professors in other cases, with a similar consequence.  Indeed, if evidence could be shown that this principle is not generally applied, then the firing of Ramadan looks hypocritical.  But to play devil&#039;s advocate, it may be that the only way the university checks is by asking for a self-declaration, which is routinely accepted as true unless shown otherwise. In that case, if Ramadan did not originally declare the Iranian press work, and then it becomes public, he could be fired on grounds of self-misrepresentation alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree with Ingrid&#8217;s analysis 100%.  The only way Erasmus can assure credibility in this matter would be through a demonstration that it has applied the external income principle to guest professors in other cases, with a similar consequence.  Indeed, if evidence could be shown that this principle is not generally applied, then the firing of Ramadan looks hypocritical.  But to play devil&#8217;s advocate, it may be that the only way the university checks is by asking for a self-declaration, which is routinely accepted as true unless shown otherwise. In that case, if Ramadan did not originally declare the Iranian press work, and then it becomes public, he could be fired on grounds of self-misrepresentation alone.</p>
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