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	<title>Comments on: Reality Thursday</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-2/#comment-290390</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290390</guid>
		<description>The quotation from Carnap aside, the video itself clearly embraces lowest-common denominator scientific realism: we know science is &quot;real&quot; because &lt;i&gt;look at all the things we can do with it&lt;/i&gt;. The alternative is magic, like angels, unicorns, and elfs.

By the way, the amazon forum arguments about that line are worth a quick perusal. It seems that some segment of their audience doesn&#039;t mind the pro-evolution message, but is upset about their rejection of angels. 

If you haven&#039;t seen it already, read the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wired.com/underwire/2009/08/they-might-be-giants-f-comes-science/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wired interview&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The quotation from Carnap aside, the video itself clearly embraces lowest-common denominator scientific realism: we know science is &#8220;real&#8221; because <i>look at all the things we can do with it</i>. The alternative is magic, like angels, unicorns, and elfs.</p>

	<p>By the way, the amazon forum arguments about that line are worth a quick perusal. It seems that some segment of their audience doesn&#8217;t mind the pro-evolution message, but is upset about their rejection of angels.</p>

	<p>If you haven&#8217;t seen it already, read the <a href="http://www.wired.com/underwire/2009/08/they-might-be-giants-f-comes-science/" rel="nofollow">Wired interview</a>.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: JO'N</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-2/#comment-290350</link>
		<dc:creator>JO'N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 03:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290350</guid>
		<description>&lt;code&gt;
Though it&#039;s Popper I studied in college,
Falsification didn&#039;t acknowledge
Statistics, his terror.
So, he didn&#039;t write &quot;Error
And The Growth of Experimental Knowledge.&quot;
&lt;/code&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><code><br />
Though it's Popper I studied in college,<br />
Falsification didn't acknowledge<br />
Statistics, his terror.<br />
So, he didn't write "Error<br />
And The Growth of Experimental Knowledge."<br />
</code></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lgm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290314</link>
		<dc:creator>lgm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290314</guid>
		<description>I seem to be having trouble focusing on the work I really should be doing.  Sorry about the typos in the last one.   This bad poem is meant to reinforce Jim Harrison&#039;s better one above.

Some folks will say momentum is conserved
since old Queen Bess and her big Daddy Harry
told planets if they even slightly swerved,
they&#039;d be treated like old Scottish Mary.

But planets grumbled: &quot;Agamemnon, lord
of burning Troy would let us circle free.
Imagination never left us bored,
but charted epicyclic trajectories. 

&quot;New kings can try to change our errant ways,
but we&#039;ll not follow puny laws like these.
Watch our independence.  Lift your gaze 
to where we frolic as we damn well please.&quot;

But Newton told `em he would never look,
`less they moved exactly by the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I seem to be having trouble focusing on the work I really should be doing.  Sorry about the typos in the last one.   This bad poem is meant to reinforce Jim Harrison&#8217;s better one above.</p>

	<p>Some folks will say momentum is conserved<br />
since old Queen Bess and her big Daddy Harry<br />
told planets if they even slightly swerved,<br />
they&#8217;d be treated like old Scottish Mary.</p>

	<p>But planets grumbled: &#8220;Agamemnon, lord<br />
of burning Troy would let us circle free.<br />
Imagination never left us bored,<br />
but charted epicyclic trajectories.</p>

	<p>&#8220;New kings can try to change our errant ways,<br />
but we&#8217;ll not follow puny laws like these.<br />
Watch our independence.  Lift your gaze<br />
to where we frolic as we damn well please.&#8221;</p>

	<p>But Newton told `em he would never look,<br />
`less they moved exactly by the book.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290309</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 18:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290309</guid>
		<description>We think the scientists do science 
And nature just sits there and poses
In fact, without a firm alliance 
Of man and thing there’d be no gnosis.
The line between the S and O
Is dotted and moves to and fro.
It’s like what happens on a date
If you get lucky and you mate.
We get inside of nature’s pants
Because the lady wants to dance.
Or to make the selfsame point
Without alluding to your joint:
Science happens
As much in things as in the mind
Else the naked eyeball of our pride
Would be definitively blind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We think the scientists do science<br />
And nature just sits there and poses<br />
In fact, without a firm alliance<br />
Of man and thing there&#8217;d be no gnosis.<br />
The line between the S and O<br />
Is dotted and moves to and fro.<br />
It&#8217;s like what happens on a date<br />
If you get lucky and you mate.<br />
We get inside of nature&#8217;s pants<br />
Because the lady wants to dance.<br />
Or to make the selfsame point<br />
Without alluding to your joint:<br />
Science happens<br />
As much in things as in the mind<br />
Else the naked eyeball of our pride<br />
Would be definitively blind.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: M. Raskin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290308</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Raskin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 18:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290308</guid>
		<description>I fear I’ve been sentenced to sentences
All pictures and diagrams are nought
Sometimes an idea
While perfectly clear 
Can only be believed by those well taught.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I fear I&#8217;ve been sentenced to sentences<br />
All pictures and diagrams are nought<br />
Sometimes an idea<br />
While perfectly clear<br />
Can only be believed by those well taught.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: d.e.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290306</link>
		<dc:creator>d.e.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 18:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290306</guid>
		<description>This thread fills my heart with love for the human race</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This thread fills my heart with love for the human race</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lgm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290304</link>
		<dc:creator>lgm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290304</guid>
		<description>Science talks about the way that things
from radios to far out quantum strings
from rocks and streams that sparkle in the light
to chicken pox and dreaded Dutch Elm blight
get to be the way they are.  So come
with me to look, and bring a pen
so that in winter we can once again
remember all we&#039;ve seen.  We&#039;ll start to ponder
what&#039;s in common with these things of wonder.
And should we guess, it wouldn&#039;t be a chore
to venture back to look at things once more
to see if nature does as we surmised.
But if it does, we will not be surprised
if someone tells us that these things appear
the way they do because old dead Shakespeare 
corrupted hath our helpless fragile heads
with culture from sixteen hundereds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Science talks about the way that things<br />
from radios to far out quantum strings<br />
from rocks and streams that sparkle in the light<br />
to chicken pox and dreaded Dutch Elm blight<br />
get to be the way they are.  So come<br />
with me to look, and bring a pen<br />
so that in winter we can once again<br />
remember all we&#8217;ve seen.  We&#8217;ll start to ponder<br />
what&#8217;s in common with these things of wonder.<br />
And should we guess, it wouldn&#8217;t be a chore<br />
to venture back to look at things once more<br />
to see if nature does as we surmised.<br />
But if it does, we will not be surprised<br />
if someone tells us that these things appear<br />
the way they do because old dead Shakespeare<br />
corrupted hath our helpless fragile heads<br />
with culture from sixteen hundereds.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rama</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290302</link>
		<dc:creator>Rama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290302</guid>
		<description>Brother, can you spare a dime?
No, just Kuhn and his paradigm.
Science is what Scientists do
Not the fairy tales of how and who.

A human activity, nobler but like any other
With Priests and Sacred Texts refereed by a brother
Revolutions and paradigm shifts , but mostly Normal
With a Logic and Philosophy, very Formal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brother, can you spare a dime?<br />
No, just Kuhn and his paradigm.<br />
Science is what Scientists do<br />
Not the fairy tales of how and who.</p>

	<p>A human activity, nobler but like any other<br />
With Priests and Sacred Texts refereed by a brother<br />
Revolutions and paradigm shifts , but mostly Normal<br />
With a Logic and Philosophy, very Formal.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290286</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290286</guid>
		<description>@Scott Martens 12:45: And if those were typical, as opposed to contrived, examples, then there would be a science of gremlinology and no science of microbiology.  In fact, if you observed those results, those intermediate conclusions would be reasonable ones to draw... until you saw more complete data.  I don&#039;t know if there&#039;s a song on the album about changing your mind and your theory when you see new evidence, but there probably ought to be.  (The two songs about the sun sort of make this point, but only if you know the history connecting them.)

Certainly it&#039;s important to cover experimental design (if gremlins are short, they should be able to reach a low hook, but in fact a low hook works just as well as a high one; and a shelf or table also works just as well as long as you have the habit of using it, which rules out hookophobia; etc.) but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to demand the entire scientific method be crammed into a two minute video.  (You might find one of the other songs on the album, &quot;Put It To The Test&quot;, relevant to that point, though.)

The main point of &quot;Science Is Real&quot; is to raise the distinction between fact-based approaches and &quot;those stories about angels, unicorns and elves&quot; (a line which gave rise to a much funnier (unintentionally) line of criticism from people who think that one of those things is not like the others).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@Scott Martens 12:45: And if those were typical, as opposed to contrived, examples, then there would be a science of gremlinology and no science of microbiology.  In fact, if you observed those results, those intermediate conclusions would be reasonable ones to draw&#8230; until you saw more complete data.  I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s a song on the album about changing your mind and your theory when you see new evidence, but there probably ought to be.  (The two songs about the sun sort of make this point, but only if you know the history connecting them.)</p>

	<p>Certainly it&#8217;s important to cover experimental design (if gremlins are short, they should be able to reach a low hook, but in fact a low hook works just as well as a high one; and a shelf or table also works just as well as long as you have the habit of using it, which rules out hookophobia; etc.) but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to demand the entire scientific method be crammed into a two minute video.  (You might find one of the other songs on the album, &#8220;Put It To The Test&#8221;, relevant to that point, though.)</p>

	<p>The main point of &#8220;Science Is Real&#8221; is to raise the distinction between fact-based approaches and &#8220;those stories about angels, unicorns and elves&#8221; (a line which gave rise to a much funnier (unintentionally) line of criticism from people who think that one of those things is not like the others).</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Billikin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290269</link>
		<dc:creator>Billikin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290269</guid>
		<description>@ garymar

Elegant 
Hypotheses?
Nasty facts?
Algorithmic
Complexity!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@ garymar</p>

	<p>Elegant<br />
Hypotheses?<br />
Nasty facts?<br />
Algorithmic<br />
Complexity!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: armando</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290267</link>
		<dc:creator>armando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290267</guid>
		<description>&lt;cite&gt;It is genuinely difficult to convince people that science isn’t just ideology, political correctness and personal ambition when the phenomena it discusses are remote from day-to-day life &lt;/cite&gt;

But isn&#039;t the history of the successes of science somewhat strong evidence that there might be something to this fancy science business? I realise that that isn&#039;t going to convince you about any particular bit of science, but if the science project seems pretty effective at times then surely blanket dismissals on ideological grounds sound weaker. 

I guess the tricky thing is when someone decides that while they may support the water-tight conclusions of noble science, they also regret the naked ideology of those bits that they don&#039;t like very much. And, obviously, if sufficiently many people take that kind of self serving stance, then science *is* effectively ideological.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><cite>It is genuinely difficult to convince people that science isn&#8217;t just ideology, political correctness and personal ambition when the phenomena it discusses are remote from day-to-day life </cite></p>

	<p>But isn&#8217;t the history of the successes of science somewhat strong evidence that there might be something to this fancy science business? I realise that that isn&#8217;t going to convince you about any particular bit of science, but if the science project seems pretty effective at times then surely blanket dismissals on ideological grounds sound weaker.</p>

	<p>I guess the tricky thing is when someone decides that while they may support the water-tight conclusions of noble science, they also regret the naked ideology of those bits that they don&#8217;t like very much. And, obviously, if sufficiently many people take that kind of self serving stance, then science <strong>is</strong> effectively ideological.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290264</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290264</guid>
		<description>Well... having laid out an instrumentalist position, albeit a rather elderly pre-Popperian one associated with specific and discredited (but sorta Epicurian) schools of thought, let me play devil&#039;s advocate to Tim.  Consider two scenarios:

1. I&#039;m always losing my keys and I think mystical, practically invisible creatures called gremlins are doing it.  I believe gremlins to be short, so I attach a hook on the wall next to the door and systematically hang my keys there every time I come home.  After that, I have no trouble finding my keys.

2. I&#039;m always getting ear infections and I think they&#039;re caused by microscopic, practically invisible  organisms called bacteria.  I believe bacteria to have cell walls with distinct chemical properties that can be disrupted by certain distilled by-products of molds, or synthetic equivalents.  I take doses of those chemicals regularly and my infections go away.

Let&#039;s further muck about with the scenario: In order to confirm my theories, I stop using the hook by the door and lo and behold, I start losing my keys almost immediately.  I stop taking the antibiotics and my infections still go away.  Ergo, gremlins are real and bacteria are not.

Now, you can tell me that the reason I stopped losing my keys was because I started putting them in a fixed place everyday and the reason it made little difference if I took antibiotics or not is because my infections were probably caused by viruses rather than bacteria.  But, I could respond that you&#039;re making just-so stories.  In fact, I rarely lose objects in my house, and you&#039;d think I&#039;d be finding keys at random all over the place if I was just forgetful.  And telling me that antibiotics aren&#039;t doing anything because what I really have is viruses is akin to claiming that I&#039;ve stopped losing my keys because there are no gremlins, only kobolds steal keys and they&#039;re scared of hooks.

Children routinely have beliefs that are not very different from the belief in gremlins outlined above.  Their belief in germs is no more well-grounded than their beliefs in monsters under the bed.  To be honest, I kinda shuddered at that video, because singing &quot;science is real&quot; sounds to me a lot like &quot;Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so&quot;.  Children are not so clear on the ontological significance of claims about what&#039;s real and what isn&#039;t, but they generally have some understanding of what love is, so I suspect the hymnists are ahead on that one.

It is &lt;i&gt;genuinely difficult&lt;/i&gt; to convince people that science isn&#039;t just ideology, political correctness and personal ambition when the phenomena it discusses are remote from day-to-day life and when they want to believe otherwise, just as it is incredibly easy to convince them that science proves some prejudice they already possessed no matter how flaky.  I came from exactly the kind of background that was sceptical of evolution but couldn&#039;t even imagine questioning the virgin birth, and Dobzhansky&#039;s argument for evolution is the one that I found convincing: Once you engage with a larger body of knowledge about the world, you find that nothing in biology makes sense without common descent and at least some aspects of natural selection.  The most substantial argument against gremlins is that their existence makes no sense in light of a larger and more complex world, while the argument for bacteria is that vast amounts of modern medicine, epidemiology and microbiology make no sense without them.

Dobzhansky&#039;s view may be compatible with a variety of metaphysical positions.  It is totally incompatible with Carnap&#039;s positivism, and certainly with the rather naive hypothetico-deductive approach described in the video.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well&#8230; having laid out an instrumentalist position, albeit a rather elderly pre-Popperian one associated with specific and discredited (but sorta Epicurian) schools of thought, let me play devil&#8217;s advocate to Tim.  Consider two scenarios:</p>

	<p>1. I&#8217;m always losing my keys and I think mystical, practically invisible creatures called gremlins are doing it.  I believe gremlins to be short, so I attach a hook on the wall next to the door and systematically hang my keys there every time I come home.  After that, I have no trouble finding my keys.</p>

	<p>2. I&#8217;m always getting ear infections and I think they&#8217;re caused by microscopic, practically invisible  organisms called bacteria.  I believe bacteria to have cell walls with distinct chemical properties that can be disrupted by certain distilled by-products of molds, or synthetic equivalents.  I take doses of those chemicals regularly and my infections go away.</p>

	<p>Let&#8217;s further muck about with the scenario: In order to confirm my theories, I stop using the hook by the door and lo and behold, I start losing my keys almost immediately.  I stop taking the antibiotics and my infections still go away.  Ergo, gremlins are real and bacteria are not.</p>

	<p>Now, you can tell me that the reason I stopped losing my keys was because I started putting them in a fixed place everyday and the reason it made little difference if I took antibiotics or not is because my infections were probably caused by viruses rather than bacteria.  But, I could respond that you&#8217;re making just-so stories.  In fact, I rarely lose objects in my house, and you&#8217;d think I&#8217;d be finding keys at random all over the place if I was just forgetful.  And telling me that antibiotics aren&#8217;t doing anything because what I really have is viruses is akin to claiming that I&#8217;ve stopped losing my keys because there are no gremlins, only kobolds steal keys and they&#8217;re scared of hooks.</p>

	<p>Children routinely have beliefs that are not very different from the belief in gremlins outlined above.  Their belief in germs is no more well-grounded than their beliefs in monsters under the bed.  To be honest, I kinda shuddered at that video, because singing &#8220;science is real&#8221; sounds to me a lot like &#8220;Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so&#8221;.  Children are not so clear on the ontological significance of claims about what&#8217;s real and what isn&#8217;t, but they generally have some understanding of what love is, so I suspect the hymnists are ahead on that one.</p>

	<p>It is <i>genuinely difficult</i> to convince people that science isn&#8217;t just ideology, political correctness and personal ambition when the phenomena it discusses are remote from day-to-day life and when they want to believe otherwise, just as it is incredibly easy to convince them that science proves some prejudice they already possessed no matter how flaky.  I came from exactly the kind of background that was sceptical of evolution but couldn&#8217;t even imagine questioning the virgin birth, and Dobzhansky&#8217;s argument for evolution is the one that I found convincing: Once you engage with a larger body of knowledge about the world, you find that nothing in biology makes sense without common descent and at least some aspects of natural selection.  The most substantial argument against gremlins is that their existence makes no sense in light of a larger and more complex world, while the argument for bacteria is that vast amounts of modern medicine, epidemiology and microbiology make no sense without them.</p>

	<p>Dobzhansky&#8217;s view may be compatible with a variety of metaphysical positions.  It is totally incompatible with Carnap&#8217;s positivism, and certainly with the rather naive hypothetico-deductive approach described in the video.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hidari</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290262</link>
		<dc:creator>Hidari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290262</guid>
		<description>Yo yo yo,
the real is the deal so i&#039;m keepin&#039; it radical
the rhymes that I state make my thesis political
The models I make, predict my bullets&#039; trajectory
you bullshit constructionists can u even match my salary?

Your pissed on epistemology with my bullet is ruptured
My soul deep ontology makes your white face get flustered
This bass mic is real like the laws of gravity
You tell me you it&#039;s  just  words, man have you lost your sanity?

Breakdown! Jigga jigga jigga....I want everyone in da house to say &#039;critical realism&#039;.....Yo... Roy Bhaskar in da house....Respect is due.....

etc. etc. etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yo yo yo,<br />
the real is the deal so i&#8217;m keepin&#8217; it radical<br />
the rhymes that I state make my thesis political<br />
The models I make, predict my bullets&#8217; trajectory<br />
you bullshit constructionists can u even match my salary?</p>

	<p>Your pissed on epistemology with my bullet is ruptured<br />
My soul deep ontology makes your white face get flustered<br />
This bass mic is real like the laws of gravity<br />
You tell me you it&#8217;s  just  words, man have you lost your sanity?</p>

	<p>Breakdown! Jigga jigga jigga&#8230;.I want everyone in da house to say &#8216;critical realism&#8217;&#8230;..Yo&#8230; Roy Bhaskar in da house&#8230;.Respect is due&#8230;..</p>

	<p>etc. etc. etc.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tim O'Keefe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290257</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim O'Keefe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290257</guid>
		<description>Hi John. In the video, the contrast is between science, which is &quot;real,&quot; and things like fairies and unicorns, which are &quot;not real&quot; (although stories about them are still enjoyable). I  presume that this doesn&#039;t mean just that science, as a social practice, exists.  Instead, the point is that science isn&#039;t just a bunch of crap we made up; instead, it is grounded in observation, tested, and can be reliable. This is fairly thin notion of &#039;real,&#039; compatible with a large range of metaphysical positions, including the fairly instrumentalist positions expressed by, Scott Martens 10.02.09 at 9:51 am and bad Jim 10.02.09 at 8:09 am.

Regards,

Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi John. In the video, the contrast is between science, which is &#8220;real,&#8221; and things like fairies and unicorns, which are &#8220;not real&#8221; (although stories about them are still enjoyable). I  presume that this doesn&#8217;t mean just that science, as a social practice, exists.  Instead, the point is that science isn&#8217;t just a bunch of crap we made up; instead, it is grounded in observation, tested, and can be reliable. This is fairly thin notion of &#8216;real,&#8217; compatible with a large range of metaphysical positions, including the fairly instrumentalist positions expressed by, Scott Martens 10.02.09 at 9:51 am and bad Jim 10.02.09 at 8:09 am.</p>

	<p>Regards,</p>

	<p>Tim</p>
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		<title>By: SusanC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/01/reality-thursday/comment-page-1/#comment-290256</link>
		<dc:creator>SusanC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13190#comment-290256</guid>
		<description>Nearly all children play games of pretense, so you&#039;ld expect older children to have an intuitive understanding of the &quot;real&quot; versus the pretend. (I&#039;ll pass on the questions of what point in development this distinction is understood, whether children with severe autism can pretend, whether other times or other cultures have the same notion of &quot;real&quot; that we do, etc). To say that science studies objects that are &quot;real&quot; in this sense seems rather safer than a strong Realist position that (e.g.) we have empirical evidence that we are not the proverbial brain in a vat.

If children have played online games like World of Warcraft, they may know that you can use scientific method to investigate an entirely simulated world. (And indeed, such investigation is part of the fun of these games)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nearly all children play games of pretense, so you&#8217;ld expect older children to have an intuitive understanding of the &#8220;real&#8221; versus the pretend. (I&#8217;ll pass on the questions of what point in development this distinction is understood, whether children with severe autism can pretend, whether other times or other cultures have the same notion of &#8220;real&#8221; that we do, etc). To say that science studies objects that are &#8220;real&#8221; in this sense seems rather safer than a strong Realist position that (e.g.) we have empirical evidence that we are not the proverbial brain in a vat.</p>

	<p>If children have played online games like World of Warcraft, they may know that you can use scientific method to investigate an entirely simulated world. (And indeed, such investigation is part of the fun of these games)</p>
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