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	<title>Comments on: Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing &#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Geoff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-3/#comment-291396</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291396</guid>
		<description>To paraphrase the Rumsfeld-esque Assistant Secretary of State for Policy in In The Loop, they want to make the Bible reflect was was intended to have been said, rather than what was actually said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To paraphrase the Rumsfeld-esque Assistant Secretary of State for Policy in In The Loop, they want to make the Bible reflect was was intended to have been said, rather than what was actually said.</p>
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		<title>By: hoi polloi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-3/#comment-291379</link>
		<dc:creator>hoi polloi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291379</guid>
		<description>@ajay -- assuming you know that John is not responsible for the Dewey Decimal System.

The key question viz. library classification is why the Library of Congress puts the Bible under BS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@ajay&#8212;assuming you know that John is not responsible for the Dewey Decimal System.</p>

	<p>The key question viz. library classification is why the Library of Congress puts the Bible under BS.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-3/#comment-291355</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If nothing else good comes of this, I at least had reason to learn about Julius Wellhausen.&lt;/i&gt;

Me too! The other six I knew about and could more or less understand as hate figures:
Charles Darwin - obviously, suggested people descended from MONKEYS
Karl Marx - invented international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify America
Sigmund Freud - implied honest people have naughty thoughts
 John Dewey - a bit less sure; but I&#039;m guessing that he offended Christian glassblowers by classifying glass-blowing as 6.66 in his system of library classification.
 John Maynard Keynes - invented socialism
 Soren Kierkegaard - bit the heads off ferrets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If nothing else good comes of this, I at least had reason to learn about Julius Wellhausen.</i></p>

	<p>Me too! The other six I knew about and could more or less understand as hate figures:<br />
Charles Darwin &#8211; obviously, suggested people descended from <span class="caps">MONKEYS</span><br />
Karl Marx &#8211; invented international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify America<br />
Sigmund Freud &#8211; implied honest people have naughty thoughts<br />
John Dewey &#8211; a bit less sure; but I&#8217;m guessing that he offended Christian glassblowers by classifying glass-blowing as 6.66 in his system of library classification.<br />
John Maynard Keynes &#8211; invented socialism<br />
Soren Kierkegaard &#8211; bit the heads off ferrets.</p>
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		<title>By: splashy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-3/#comment-291289</link>
		<dc:creator>splashy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291289</guid>
		<description>Sounds like Constatine all over again, only on steroids. If you look at the history of the Bible, you will see that this has been done before, to emphasize authority and the rule of &quot;betters.&quot; 

So, will they take out the Sermon on the Mount, with lines like &quot;Blessed are the peacemakers&quot; which seem pretty liberal to me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sounds like Constatine all over again, only on steroids. If you look at the history of the Bible, you will see that this has been done before, to emphasize authority and the rule of &#8220;betters.&#8221;</p>

	<p>So, will they take out the Sermon on the Mount, with lines like &#8220;Blessed are the peacemakers&#8221; which seem pretty liberal to me?</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291221</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291221</guid>
		<description>Following up Mart #19

After those who  doubted George Bush have been proven wrong over and over again, after he has been vindicated in every particular, do you still find yourself doubting that he is a genius anointed by God (sorry the Lord!) to rule humankind? If so, don&#039;t you think to open your mind to the truth free of liberal bias?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Following up Mart #19</p>

	<p>After those who  doubted George Bush have been proven wrong over and over again, after he has been vindicated in every particular, do you still find yourself doubting that he is a genius anointed by God (sorry the Lord!) to rule humankind? If so, don&#8217;t you think to open your mind to the truth free of liberal bias?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291215</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291215</guid>
		<description>@CJColucci  Me too</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@CJColucci  Me too</p>
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		<title>By: CJColucci</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291209</link>
		<dc:creator>CJColucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291209</guid>
		<description>If nothing else good comes of this, I at least had reason to learn about Julius Wellhausen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If nothing else good comes of this, I at least had reason to learn about Julius Wellhausen.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291170</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291170</guid>
		<description>So, they are taking the KJV as authoritative and &quot;re-translating&quot; the NT from it?  Wow.  That indicates a stunning degree of ignorance, as anyone with even a small degree of competence in koine greek knows that the KJV is not a very good translation to begin with.  (Not their fault, really.)  Well, maybe I should say it&#039;s not a very &lt;i&gt;reliable&lt;/i&gt; translation, but it is a &lt;i&gt;good&lt;/i&gt; translation—with &quot;good&quot; including things like literary merit.

BTW, &lt;i&gt;Wide as the Waters: The Story of the English Bible and the Revolution It Inspired &lt;/i&gt; is a pretty good history of the King James bible.

Given that the context here is supposedly &quot;scholarly&quot;—that is, Conservapedia intends to be some kind of reliable authority—I think it is &lt;i&gt;extremely&lt;/i&gt; revealing that they would even contemplate a bible translation outside of competency in the language of the original texts.  This makes it clear that they are intellectual frauds.

At least a lot of evangelicals attempt to learn some koine—my experience is that they tend to be much less competent than they think they are, but still—and so it&#039;s not as if Conservapedia couldn&#039;t enlist people who have at least a small clue about what they&#039;re attempting.  But then, of course, any knowledge of the original texts would tie their hands to some degree, wouldn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So, they are taking the <span class="caps">KJV</span> as authoritative and &#8220;re-translating&#8221; the NT from it?  Wow.  That indicates a stunning degree of ignorance, as anyone with even a small degree of competence in koine greek knows that the <span class="caps">KJV</span> is not a very good translation to begin with.  (Not their fault, really.)  Well, maybe I should say it&#8217;s not a very <i>reliable</i> translation, but it is a <i>good</i> translation&#8212;with &#8220;good&#8221; including things like literary merit.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>, <i>Wide as the Waters: The Story of the English Bible and the Revolution It Inspired </i> is a pretty good history of the King James bible.</p>

	<p>Given that the context here is supposedly &#8220;scholarly&#8221;&#8212;that is, Conservapedia intends to be some kind of reliable authority&#8212;I think it is <i>extremely</i> revealing that they would even contemplate a bible translation outside of competency in the language of the original texts.  This makes it clear that they are intellectual frauds.</p>

	<p>At least a lot of evangelicals attempt to learn some koine&#8212;my experience is that they tend to be much less competent than they think they are, but still&#8212;and so it&#8217;s not as if Conservapedia couldn&#8217;t enlist people who have at least a small clue about what they&#8217;re attempting.  But then, of course, any knowledge of the original texts would tie their hands to some degree, wouldn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: kid bitzer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291127</link>
		<dc:creator>kid bitzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291127</guid>
		<description>you remember that footnote in sokal, right?

&quot;Just as liberal feminists are frequently content with a minimal agenda of legal and social equality for women and &#039;pro-choice&#039;, so liberal (and even some socialist) mathematicians are often content to work within the hegemonic Zermelo-Fraenkel framework (which, reflecting its nineteenth-century liberal origins, already incorporates the axiom of equality) supplemented only by the axiom of choice.&quot;

i&#039;m thinking that schlaffers never figured out the sokal hoax is a hoax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>you remember that footnote in sokal, right?</p>

	<p>&#8220;Just as liberal feminists are frequently content with a minimal agenda of legal and social equality for women and &#8216;pro-choice&#8217;, so liberal (and even some socialist) mathematicians are often content to work within the hegemonic Zermelo-Fraenkel framework (which, reflecting its nineteenth-century liberal origins, already incorporates the axiom of equality) supplemented only by the axiom of choice.&#8221;</p>

	<p>i&#8217;m thinking that schlaffers never figured out the sokal hoax is a hoax.</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291102</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291102</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So he can’t swallow the Banach-Tarsky paradox. What’s so odd about that?&lt;/i&gt;

I confess to having thought, in response to Robert P&#039;s comment, &quot;eh, as opposed to the straightforward reasons the rest of us are vaguely bothered by it?&quot;

Wikipedia is delightfully incisive about this: &quot;The existence of nonmeasurable sets, such as those in the Banach–Tarski paradox, has been used as an argument against the axiom of choice. Nevertheless, most mathematicians are willing to tolerate the existence of nonmeasurable sets, given that the axiom of choice has many other mathematically useful consequences.&quot;

Willing to tolerate sounds about right -- granted I&#039;m just an apprentice at this point, but that seems consonant with folks&#039; feelings. Isn&#039;t the purpose of axiom selection to maximize the mathematically useful consequences we can achieve, under the constraints of parsimony and consistency?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>So he can&#8217;t swallow the Banach-Tarsky paradox. What&#8217;s so odd about that?</i></p>

	<p>I confess to having thought, in response to Robert P&#8217;s comment, &#8220;eh, as opposed to the straightforward reasons the rest of us are vaguely bothered by it?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Wikipedia is delightfully incisive about this: &#8220;The existence of nonmeasurable sets, such as those in the Banach&#8211;Tarski paradox, has been used as an argument against the axiom of choice. Nevertheless, most mathematicians are willing to tolerate the existence of nonmeasurable sets, given that the axiom of choice has many other mathematically useful consequences.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Willing to tolerate sounds about right&#8212;granted I&#8217;m just an apprentice at this point, but that seems consonant with folks&#8217; feelings. Isn&#8217;t the purpose of axiom selection to maximize the mathematically useful consequences we can achieve, under the constraints of parsimony and consistency?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Fisk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291069</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Fisk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 06:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291069</guid>
		<description>Al Franken already beat the wingnuts to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK7gI5lMB7M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Al Franken already beat the wingnuts to it:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK7gI5lMB7M" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK7gI5lMB7M</a></p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291062</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291062</guid>
		<description>&quot;He seems to hate the Axiom of Choice for some obscure reason.&quot;

So he can&#039;t swallow the Banach-Tarsky paradox.  What&#039;s so odd about that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;He seems to hate the Axiom of Choice for some obscure reason.&#8221;</p>

	<p>So he can&#8217;t swallow the Banach-Tarsky paradox.  What&#8217;s so odd about that?</p>
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		<title>By: Ricosquirrel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291054</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricosquirrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291054</guid>
		<description>Hmm...this seems like an excellent project. For too long the Word has been diluted by well meaning liberals and cultural- relatavists.

I am so excited I&#039;m off to commit the Sin of Onan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm&#8230;this seems like an excellent project. For too long the Word has been diluted by well meaning liberals and cultural- relatavists.</p>

	<p>I am so excited I&#8217;m off to commit the Sin of Onan.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291052</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291052</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;He seems to hate the Axiom of Choice for some obscure reason.&lt;/i&gt;

Liberal names!  &quot;Axiom of Life&quot; would clearly be superior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>He seems to hate the Axiom of Choice for some obscure reason.</i></p>

	<p>Liberal names!  &#8220;Axiom of Life&#8221; would clearly be superior.</p>
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		<title>By: Ex-PD</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/07/father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing/comment-page-2/#comment-291051</link>
		<dc:creator>Ex-PD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13259#comment-291051</guid>
		<description>87, 89

What an obsessive weirdo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>87, 89</p>

	<p>What an obsessive weirdo.</p>
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