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	<title>Comments on: About That&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Batocchio</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291709</link>
		<dc:creator>Batocchio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291709</guid>
		<description>The conclusion was great, but &quot;Jonah “organic honey at Dachau” Goldberg wonders&quot; made me laugh.  Sometimes I think these folks just consult the revised Daily Hate List before frothing, since many of their attacks are wildly inconsistent and incoherent.  Oh well, McCarthy will always have Chicago and Bill Ayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The conclusion was great, but &#8220;Jonah &#8220;organic honey at Dachau&#8221; Goldberg wonders&#8221; made me laugh.  Sometimes I think these folks just consult the revised Daily Hate List before frothing, since many of their attacks are wildly inconsistent and incoherent.  Oh well, McCarthy will always have Chicago and Bill Ayers.</p>
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		<title>By: va</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291643</link>
		<dc:creator>va</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291643</guid>
		<description>Newt Gingrich was &lt;a&gt;going bonkers&lt;/a&gt; about the Uighurs at the same time McCarthy was. Edwards the noob seemed at pains to portray Kadeer as everything Gingrich&#039;s Uighurs are not.

&quot;America, meet the Uighurs. Seventeen of the 241 terrorist detainees currently being held at Guantanamo Bay are Chinese Muslims known as Uighurs. These Uighurs have been allied with and trained by al Qaeda-affiliated terrorist groups. The goal of the Uighurs is to establish a separate sharia state.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Newt Gingrich was <a>going bonkers</a> about the Uighurs at the same time McCarthy was. Edwards the noob seemed at pains to portray Kadeer as everything Gingrich&#8217;s Uighurs are not.</p>

	<p>&#8220;America, meet the Uighurs. Seventeen of the 241 terrorist detainees currently being held at Guantanamo Bay are Chinese Muslims known as Uighurs. These Uighurs have been allied with and trained by al Qaeda-affiliated terrorist groups. The goal of the Uighurs is to establish a separate sharia state.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291523</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291523</guid>
		<description>Evil Bender:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
    Is anyone else vaguely nostalgic for the days when the far right could have at least been counted on to object to Communist governments abusing their own people? Or do I misremember and they never really cared?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They never really cared about the people, just the fact that the dirty commies were preventing good, wholesome capitalists from being able to make a quick buck selling them shit they don&#039;t want (but will gladly manufacture for us at slave wages).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Evil Bender:<br />
<blockquote><br />
Is anyone else vaguely nostalgic for the days when the far right could have at least been counted on to object to Communist governments abusing their own people? Or do I misremember and they never really cared?<br />
</blockquote></p>

	<p>They never really cared about the people, just the fact that the dirty commies were preventing good, wholesome capitalists from being able to make a quick buck selling them shit they don&#8217;t want (but will gladly manufacture for us at slave wages).</p>
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		<title>By: idlemind</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291520</link>
		<dc:creator>idlemind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291520</guid>
		<description>Perhaps you&#039;re thinking of &lt;i&gt;sin&lt;/i&gt;, not &lt;i&gt;evil&lt;/i&gt;, Roy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Perhaps you&#8217;re thinking of <i>sin</i>, not <i>evil</i>, Roy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291389</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291389</guid>
		<description>&quot;Because otherwise there’s nobody there to accuse the perps of having committed an “evil” more disgustingly horrid than any other in our long sordid history.&quot;

Apart from everyone in the world, sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Because otherwise there&#8217;s nobody there to accuse the perps of having committed an &#8220;evil&#8221; more disgustingly horrid than any other in our long sordid history.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Apart from everyone in the world, sure.</p>
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		<title>By: idlemind</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291348</link>
		<dc:creator>idlemind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291348</guid>
		<description>I sense that Jonah is just disappointed that &lt;i&gt;liberal&lt;/i&gt; fascists aren&#039;t given equal time as TeeVee bad guys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I sense that Jonah is just disappointed that <i>liberal</i> fascists aren&#8217;t given equal time as TeeVee bad guys.</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291337</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291337</guid>
		<description>&quot;Evil&quot; is a meaningless term without religion behind it. In this case, Judeo-Christianity.
It has a kind of naive moral content and function, but nothing about the term carries all the way.
Destroying the world, or the human race, or all mammalian life on earth etc., and doing it on purpose, is a horribly &quot;evil&quot; thing. 
Doing it accidentally is just horribly sad.
The end result seems more powerfully substantive than the motive and intent of the causative agencies. So that &quot;evil&quot; doesn&#039;t mean much in that context. Unless we have souls and eternity and final judgment and all that to look forward to. Because otherwise there&#039;s nobody there to accuse the perps of having committed an &quot;evil&quot; more disgustingly horrid than any other in our long sordid history.
 But maybe that&#039;s just my own little parochial view of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Evil&#8221; is a meaningless term without religion behind it. In this case, Judeo-Christianity.<br />
It has a kind of naive moral content and function, but nothing about the term carries all the way.<br />
Destroying the world, or the human race, or all mammalian life on earth etc., and doing it on purpose, is a horribly &#8220;evil&#8221; thing.<br />
Doing it accidentally is just horribly sad.<br />
The end result seems more powerfully substantive than the motive and intent of the causative agencies. So that &#8220;evil&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean much in that context. Unless we have souls and eternity and final judgment and all that to look forward to. Because otherwise there&#8217;s nobody there to accuse the perps of having committed an &#8220;evil&#8221; more disgustingly horrid than any other in our long sordid history.<br />
But maybe that&#8217;s just my own little parochial view of things.</p>
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		<title>By: Substance McGravitas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291335</link>
		<dc:creator>Substance McGravitas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 02:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291335</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I really think that this is the heart of Goldberg’s random musing—or rant, if you will—concerning the current crisis at the U.N. a frickin’ TV show.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Gee Mario, if what you identified was at the heart of what Goldberg was saying it&#039;d still be funny in a &quot;Ha ha Jonah&#039;s being an idiot again&quot; kind of way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>I really think that this is the heart of Goldberg&#8217;s random musing&#8212;or rant, if you will&#8212;concerning the current crisis at the U.N. a frickin&#8217; TV show.</blockquote>Gee Mario, if what you identified was at the heart of what Goldberg was saying it&#8217;d still be funny in a &#8220;Ha ha Jonah&#8217;s being an idiot again&#8221; kind of way.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario Diana</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291332</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario Diana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291332</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDlmYzgwOWY1NzE4YmIwYTMxYzU0YzgyYTBhN2Q3MDI=&quot;&gt;The moral quandary of &quot;Do we cut a deal with a Nazi?&quot; is so ancient and tired.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I really think that this is the heart of Goldberg&#039;s random musing -- or rant, if you will -- concerning &lt;strike&gt;the current crisis at the U.N.&lt;/strike&gt;  a &lt;i&gt;frickin&#039; TV show.&lt;/i&gt; It &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a cliche, by now. Why go there? Isn&#039;t that his point?

Or are we to believe that what he &quot;really means&quot; is that he&#039;s sad that the television audience hasn&#039;t &quot;woken up&quot; to where sci-fi shows can portray liberal college professors as the ultimate evil?

This is what happens when you take every opportunity to mock, and turn every mocking into your own little rhapsody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote cite="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDlmYzgwOWY1NzE4YmIwYTMxYzU0YzgyYTBhN2Q3MDI=">The moral quandary of &#8220;Do we cut a deal with a Nazi?&#8221; is so ancient and tired.</blockquote></p>

	<p>I really think that this is the heart of Goldberg&#8217;s random musing&#8212;or rant, if you will&#8212;concerning <strike>the current crisis at the U.N.</strike>  a <i>frickin&#8217; TV show.</i> It <i>is</i> a cliche, by now. Why go there? Isn&#8217;t that his point?</p>

	<p>Or are we to believe that what he &#8220;really means&#8221; is that he&#8217;s sad that the television audience hasn&#8217;t &#8220;woken up&#8221; to where sci-fi shows can portray liberal college professors as the ultimate evil?</p>

	<p>This is what happens when you take every opportunity to mock, and turn every mocking into your own little rhapsody.</p>
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		<title>By: kth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291313</link>
		<dc:creator>kth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291313</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Is it really possible that you don’t see that sentence as ideologically loaded?&lt;/i&gt;

Obviously that claim is normative, but I&#039;m not arguing for more redistribution. Merely asserting that a little redistribution isn&#039;t evil in the same way that a little racism is.  Obviously at some point nearing the abolition of private property a redistributive system becomes highly pernicious. But it isn&#039;t a linear relationship the way racism is.

Or put more strongly, I&#039;d say that we have a consensus among industrialized countries that some optimal amount of redistribution exists, and it isn&#039;t zero. Again, this would only be denied by really extreme conservatives (i.e., even a flat tax rate is redistributionist, because it takes more from the rich than the poor; only a fixed per-person tax rate  is truly non-redistibutive). Whereas most decent people agree that the optimal amount of racism is none at all.  Probably Goldberg would agree (i.e., not favor financing the government via a head tax) if he thought it out, but he hasn&#039;t, and wants to insist that redistributing wealth in any amount is just as bad as racial discrimination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Is it really possible that you don&#8217;t see that sentence as ideologically loaded?</i></p>

	<p>Obviously that claim is normative, but I&#8217;m not arguing for more redistribution. Merely asserting that a little redistribution isn&#8217;t evil in the same way that a little racism is.  Obviously at some point nearing the abolition of private property a redistributive system becomes highly pernicious. But it isn&#8217;t a linear relationship the way racism is.</p>

	<p>Or put more strongly, I&#8217;d say that we have a consensus among industrialized countries that some optimal amount of redistribution exists, and it isn&#8217;t zero. Again, this would only be denied by really extreme conservatives (i.e., even a flat tax rate is redistributionist, because it takes more from the rich than the poor; only a fixed per-person tax rate  is truly non-redistibutive). Whereas most decent people agree that the optimal amount of racism is none at all.  Probably Goldberg would agree (i.e., not favor financing the government via a head tax) if he thought it out, but he hasn&#8217;t, and wants to insist that redistributing wealth in any amount is just as bad as racial discrimination.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291311</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291311</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure the Khmer Rouge (mentioned in his post) falls in the category of &quot;redistibutionism&quot; any more than Nazism. But I also don&#039;t perceive &quot;our culture&quot; labeling Khmer Rouge less &quot;evil&quot; than Nazism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure the Khmer Rouge (mentioned in his post) falls in the category of &#8220;redistibutionism&#8221; any more than Nazism. But I also don&#8217;t perceive &#8220;our culture&#8221; labeling Khmer Rouge less &#8220;evil&#8221; than Nazism.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291310</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291310</guid>
		<description>&quot;racism is bad in any form, proportional to its virulence, but redistibutionism isn’t intrinsically evil in an analogous way at all.&quot;

Is it really possible that you don&#039;t see that sentence as ideologically loaded? Do you think that it describes a factual situation objectively? If so, could you perhaps explain the grounds for thinking so?

I mostly agree with you, but I know that when I do I&#039;m choosing to. How does it work for you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;racism is bad in any form, proportional to its virulence, but redistibutionism isn&#8217;t intrinsically evil in an analogous way at all.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Is it really possible that you don&#8217;t see that sentence as ideologically loaded? Do you think that it describes a factual situation objectively? If so, could you perhaps explain the grounds for thinking so?</p>

	<p>I mostly agree with you, but I know that when I do I&#8217;m choosing to. How does it work for you?</p>
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		<title>By: kth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291309</link>
		<dc:creator>kth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 18:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291309</guid>
		<description>Henri, that&#039;s why I hedged with &quot;seems to want to say&quot;, as making an argument along the lines I sketched is an ongoing project of conservative pundits.

(reads the effing &lt;strike&gt;pantload&lt;/strike&gt; post) quite as I thought: it&#039;s a trivial context, but Goldberg is wondering why Hitler is considered uniquely evil, that some other mass-murdering tyrant couldn&#039;t have filled the bill.  There are of course perfectly sound non-political answers to his complaint, both specific to the drama in question, and generally regarding the role Nazism plays in the public imagination vis-a-vis other regimes that were host to genocides. 

But Goldberg&#039;s is irritated that Nazism has this particular evil eminence all to itself (the rest of the following makes a lot of interpretive jumps, but surely I can&#039;t be mistaken that he is irritated).  He probably thinks this is due to the commie leanings of the media, and that correctly, racial ideologies &lt;i&gt;in all their manifestations&lt;/i&gt; should be considered no more evil than redistibutionist ideologies in all their manifestations. If so, he&#039;s wrong on two counts: (1) the unique status of Nazism has nothing to do with the liberal leanings of journalists and dramatists, but with the particular dramatic arc of the rise and fall of the Third Reich, and the compressed nature of its war with the Allies, and (2) racism is bad in any form, proportional to its virulence, but redistibutionism isn&#039;t intrinsically evil in an analogous way at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henri, that&#8217;s why I hedged with &#8220;seems to want to say&#8221;, as making an argument along the lines I sketched is an ongoing project of conservative pundits.</p>

	<p>(reads the effing <strike>pantload</strike> post) quite as I thought: it&#8217;s a trivial context, but Goldberg is wondering why Hitler is considered uniquely evil, that some other mass-murdering tyrant couldn&#8217;t have filled the bill.  There are of course perfectly sound non-political answers to his complaint, both specific to the drama in question, and generally regarding the role Nazism plays in the public imagination vis-a-vis other regimes that were host to genocides.</p>

	<p>But Goldberg&#8217;s is irritated that Nazism has this particular evil eminence all to itself (the rest of the following makes a lot of interpretive jumps, but surely I can&#8217;t be mistaken that he is irritated).  He probably thinks this is due to the commie leanings of the media, and that correctly, racial ideologies <i>in all their manifestations</i> should be considered no more evil than redistibutionist ideologies in all their manifestations. If so, he&#8217;s wrong on two counts: (1) the unique status of Nazism has nothing to do with the liberal leanings of journalists and dramatists, but with the particular dramatic arc of the rise and fall of the Third Reich, and the compressed nature of its war with the Allies, and (2) racism is bad in any form, proportional to its virulence, but redistibutionism isn&#8217;t intrinsically evil in an analogous way at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Henri Vieuxtemps</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291308</link>
		<dc:creator>Henri Vieuxtemps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291308</guid>
		<description>17: he is not saying any of this in the linked post. He is complaining about a cliche in a stupid TV show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>17: he is not saying any of this in the linked post. He is complaining about a cliche in a stupid TV show.</p>
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		<title>By: kth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/10/about-that/comment-page-1/#comment-291307</link>
		<dc:creator>kth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13289#comment-291307</guid>
		<description>15: he means ideology, not just personal evil stuff like being a serial killer. He&#039;s erecting a straw man whereby genocidists who exploit populist resentments that are like those of the teabaggers, but mutliplied by 100, are considered more evil than genocidists who look like the New Left multiplied by 100.  It is possible that the crimes of Hitler have a special category because of all the elaborate operations analysis involved, whereas other genocides simply involved hacking people up or just letting them starve/freeze to death. 

Goldberg seems to want to say that, because Hitler = Stalin, then the milder variants are also equivalent: George Wallace = Henry Wallace. But racism is evil in all its forms, but curtailment of private property is only evil, if even then, in its absolute and outright abolition (I could see where even a total abolition of property might not be evil if it were enacted democratically (though I would never vote for such a proposal)). Obviously conservatives would disagree, perhaps as much that private sector racism is evil, as that democratic soc1a!izm (hope that gets by the sentry) isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>15: he means ideology, not just personal evil stuff like being a serial killer. He&#8217;s erecting a straw man whereby genocidists who exploit populist resentments that are like those of the teabaggers, but mutliplied by 100, are considered more evil than genocidists who look like the New Left multiplied by 100.  It is possible that the crimes of Hitler have a special category because of all the elaborate operations analysis involved, whereas other genocides simply involved hacking people up or just letting them starve/freeze to death.</p>

	<p>Goldberg seems to want to say that, because Hitler = Stalin, then the milder variants are also equivalent: George Wallace = Henry Wallace. But racism is evil in all its forms, but curtailment of private property is only evil, if even then, in its absolute and outright abolition (I could see where even a total abolition of property might not be evil if it were enacted democratically (though I would never vote for such a proposal)). Obviously conservatives would disagree, perhaps as much that private sector racism is evil, as that democratic soc1a!izm (hope that gets by the sentry) isn&#8217;t.</p>
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